Misleading Measurements

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

So what viewpoint was banned by Amir on ASR?

No clue. Don’t read that site. 

[Josh Mound]

56 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

So what viewpoint was banned by Amir on ASR?

Are you kidding? Threads get closed or individual users warned or banned for disagreeing with Amir all the time! Check out the discussions of MQA or Amir’s subjective ratings of speakers. Anyone who disagrees with Amir repeatedly gets shown the door, regardless of the topic. 
 

Amir’s been banned from a variety of forums for trolling, including What’s Best, which I believe he cofounded. ASR bills itself as an objectivist site, but it’s really an outlet for Amir’s personal views. But Amir doesn’t want to present his view as simply one view among many. Instead, it’s that he has golden ears and superior knowledge to everyone...and, by the way, did he mention that he once worked at Microsoft and helped design WMA? (Yikes.)

[Josh Mound]

55 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

No clue. Don’t read that site. 

Smart man. I’m a glutton for punishment. (And I do appreciate some of the measurements, if not the commentary that goes with them.)

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, JoshM said:

Are you kidding? Threads get closed or individual users warned or banned for disagreeing with Amir all the time! Check out the discussions of MQA or Amir’s subjective ratings of speakers. Anyone who disagrees with Amir repeatedly gets shown the door, regardless of the topic. 
 

Amir’s been banned from a variety of forums for trolling, including What’s Best, which I believe he cofounded. ASR bills itself as an objectivist site, but it’s really an outlet for Amir’s personal views. But Amir doesn’t want to present his view as simply one view among many. Instead, it’s that he has golden ears and superior knowledge to everyone...and, by the way, did he mention that he once worked at Microsoft and helped design WMA? (Yikes.)

 

That MQA thread was funny to read, but as far as I know, nobody got banned. But, again, we'll agree to disagree.

[wbh]

1 hour ago, JoshM said:

Are you kidding? Threads get closed or individual users warned or banned for disagreeing with Amir all the time!

Yes, this happened to me. And I was never warned. 

Amazing how highly Google ranks ASR in any SERP (search engine results page). E.g. Google info on any given dac (Topping, SMSL, even Schiit) and ASR is nat or near the top of results. And ASR's Alexa ratting is getting right up there (~63k) next to similar-themed hydrogenaudio. 

Some $$ -- Patreon, AdSense, whatever -- must be rollin' in ... and that ($$) rules over "science" any day.

[jabbr]

20 hours ago, sandyk said:

 They don't need to !

 If Data is required, then it's  the job of the E.Es etc to measure it.. 

 The vast majority of Subjectivists are not technically qualified, and do not have the equipment or training needed to do so.

 One well known source of RF/EMI is poor quality LED lighting (cheap and nasty SMPS)

 

The Subjectivist Trap

 

What you hear is known best to you. *Why* you hear what you hear is not necessarily known best to you.

Your own experiences are yours. When one tries to extrapolate individual experiences into assumptions or directives about categories of things (e.g. SMPS) and how this category of thing is supposed to sound to another person is where the scientific methodology is essential for accuracy. Its not the "job" of anyone else to support your extrapolation of your individual experience with your individual environment onto "everyone's" experience with the category you are discussing.

[jabbr]

4 hours ago, wbh said:

The objective crowd at hangouts like ASR and hydrogenaudio tend to be younger ... or perhaps too many BSEE's but not enough Phd EEs. Know just enough to be stupid ... but not enough to be philosophically open (the Ph in PhD). I think this is why the founders of many, many high-end audio companies are highly educated and trained. E.g., Rob Robinson (Channel D), Keith Johnson, et. al. One really does need to think outside the textbook.

The Objectivist Trap

 

Nicely stated.

This is the same trap as the subjectivist with their own individual experience extrapolating to a category, except here, the trap is extrapolating the behavior of a system as described by a single signal with single measurement or type of measurement, onto the behavior of the same system to all signals and with all measurements. Neither is the category defined by a single measurement made with a single input.

[fas42]

Most people are aware of the situation where they can hear some very expensive rig, and know very quickly that they don't want to keep listening to it; and similarly come across a very modest setup, which is a delight to listen to, and where they keep thinking of more music that they want to experience, on it. That's where measurements should come in - but they, mostly, don't.

 

This is the area I work in, and, I don't measure. The flaws in the first system I just mentioned are highly audible, but difficult to detect with instrumentation - but this doesn't matter. Experience and experimentation allow one to track down the cause(s), and then either engineer a solution, or tweak with some workaround - the fact that at no time were any numbers forthcoming is irrelevant, because usually you're not dealing with a shortcoming in some obvious audio parameter, but rather a clear fault with the overall integrity of the playback chain.

[Teresa]

11 hours ago, botrytis said:

The point is, if they can't prove something, doesn't mean it is there. And visa versa. So this is an impasse since it obvious that subjectivists will still claim that there is noise, etc and the other side will say prove it. 

 

Sounds like US politics right now.

 

Personally. I'm fine with the impasse, as I consider myself an audio nihilist as I don't believe anything I've not heard with my own ear/brain system. 

 

So I take personal experiences, reviews, ad copy and even published specifications with great skepticism. Just because someone else loves something it doesn’t follow that I will too, I might, I might not, or whatever it is may not make any difference I can hear. I believe each person should listen for themselves because they are the ones who listen to their music though whatever they are considering purchasing.

 

However, I do love reading about music and audio. And I don't take anything I've read (measurements or listening impressions) as gospel.

 

Back to the thread topic, Misleading Measurements. One of the most misleading measurements I've every seen is spontaneous peak power used by mid-fi manufacturers in the 1970's and 1980's to make their low power products look more powerful on the spec sheets, owner's manuals and in advertising.

[Confused]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

Most people are aware of the situation where they can hear some very expensive rig, and know very quickly that they don't want to keep listening to it; and similarly come across a very modest setup, which is a delight to listen to, and where they keep thinking of more music that they want to experience, on it. That's where measurements should come in - but they, mostly, don't.

 

This is the area I work in, and, I don't measure. The flaws in the first system I just mentioned are highly audible, but difficult to detect with instrumentation - but this doesn't matter. Experience and experimentation allow one to track down the cause(s), and then either engineer a solution, or tweak with some workaround - the fact that at no time were any numbers forthcoming is irrelevant, because usually you're not dealing with a shortcoming in some obvious audio parameter, but rather a clear fault with the overall integrity of the playback chain.

If you have "an expensive rig" that fatigues and a modest rig that is listenable, I would say that 90%+ of the reasons behind this can easily be measured using something like REW.  With the former, the issues are likely to be caused by tonal imbalance, an overly prominent "shouty" mid range, a bass "suck out" or similar.   On top of this, REW can also measure distortions and other issues.

 

I have been to many hifi shows where there is some guy with a video camera filming in all the rooms, and others that dish out "best sound in show" awards.  I have no problem with either of these, all good fun.  However, it would be interesting if before the start of the show someone went from room to room, measuring with REW or similar.  (I know this is never going to happen, BTW)  Then when all the subjective views of the visitors are compiled, you could compare this to the measured responses of the systems in the rooms.  I am sure that there would be some kind of correlation between the "listenable" and "fatiguing" systems with the measured results from REW.

[danadam]

14 hours ago, wbh said:

16 hours ago, JoshM said:

Threads get closed or individual users warned or banned for disagreeing with Amir all the time!

Yes, this happened to me. And I was never warned.

In case you don't realize that, the reason for you ban was not disagreement. Well, unless you mean disagreement about what is an acceptable behavior on a forum.

[pkane2001]

16 minutes ago, danadam said:

In case you don't realize that, the reason for you ban was not disagreement. Well, unless you mean disagreement about what is an acceptable behavior on a forum.

 

Made me look. Yes, why in the world would anyone get banned after insulting only two or three other posters in his first few messages after joining the site? Totally unexpected ;)

 

[wbh]

7 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Made me look. Yes, why in the world would anyone get banned after insulting only two or three other posters in his first few messages after joining the site? Totally unexpected ;)

 

It's way to TEST how sensitive the body politic is to non-scientific immaturity.  A tough, "scientific" exoskeleton -- something you'd expect from a site proclaiming audiosciencereview.com -- would dismiss levity and concentrate on the topical issue. 

In a science forum, one is not expecting the body politic to be comprised of pus*ies.

[pkane2001]

32 minutes ago, wbh said:

It's way to TEST how sensitive the body politic is to non-scientific immaturity.  A tough, "scientific" exoskeleton -- something you'd expect from a site proclaiming audiosciencereview.com -- would dismiss levity and concentrate on the topical issue. 

In a science forum, one is not expecting the body politic to be comprised of pus*ies.

 

As I said, it was totally unexpected. Who knew that there was no tough exoskeleton and, instead, just a soft, vulnerable underbelly? 😜

[wbh]

Often, po'; wittle babies will scream enough so their mommies  come to the rescue. A tricky game ... get the moderators to 'fend y'all ....  but risk being humiliated on Reddit, ad infinitum, for being a wuss. LOL!

[pkane2001]

7 minutes ago, wbh said:

Often, po'; wittle babies will scream enough so their mommies  come to the rescue. A tricky game ... get the moderators to 'fend y'all ....  but risk being humiliated on Reddit, ad infinitum, for being a wuss. LOL!

Wimps! If I had half of your courage, I’d start insulting every one of them in alphabetical order!

[fas42]

16 hours ago, Confused said:

If you have "an expensive rig" that fatigues and a modest rig that is listenable, I would say that 90%+ of the reasons behind this can easily be measured using something like REW.  With the former, the issues are likely to be caused by tonal imbalance, an overly prominent "shouty" mid range, a bass "suck out" or similar.   On top of this, REW can also measure distortions and other issues.

 

Not in my world. The distortions that cause these subjective impressions are caused by interference and lack of integrity issues, and these are mostly, "unmeasurable" - something I learned over 30 years ago ... and nothing has happened since to change my mind. Literally yesterday I was dealing with exactly such a concern - and the same methods, as always, resolved the problem: the new digital speakers need a good dose of mains filtering to "sing", and I was experimenting with simple EMI suppression parts, to improve the performance of that filtering ... but it took 3 rounds of fine tuning precisely how the wiring in the area where they were fitted was organised, before it came properly good. Yes, I gained in suppression - but an offness was now slowly building in the sound - I had lost my 'silky strings'. Twice I thought I had done enough to stabilise the wiring and insulation, and twice I was wrong - only the last round where I literally used a toothpick to improve the mechanical stability finally did the trick ... and now the string tone was back in order 👍.

 

16 hours ago, Confused said:

I have been to many hifi shows where there is some guy with a video camera filming in all the rooms, and others that dish out "best sound in show" awards.  I have no problem with either of these, all good fun.  However, it would be interesting if before the start of the show someone went from room to room, measuring with REW or similar.  (I know this is never going to happen, BTW)  Then when all the subjective views of the visitors are compiled, you could compare this to the measured responses of the systems in the rooms.  I am sure that there would be some kind of correlation between the "listenable" and "fatiguing" systems with the measured results from REW.

 

Bev knew I had a problem - "the cello's not right" ... objectivists would laugh hysterically at the "tiny thing" that did the trick - but everyone who goes the 'burning in' phase with new stuff is dealing with the same behaviour ... I prefer to make it right from the get go, 🙂.

[wbh]

19 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Wimps! If I had half of your courage, I’d start insulting every one of them in alphabetical order!

Well, ya have to be very tactful. Like many writers/editors at the NYT/WaPo/etc say in private (who, in reality  are extremely cynical of the absurdity and fraudulence of the mainstream press) .... if you want real/factual stories to be published, you have to play it like violin string.

Make NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT: My bottom line is to troll like a MoFo and have a good time ... at others expense ;)

But I don't think my strings were quite in tune at ASR ... my bad ;)

Gotta hand it to their filters ... I keep gettin' new account REJECTED despite VPN and completely different email addy's. Or maybe the closed off new registration 'cause of too many a-holes like me ;) Cool!

Anyway ... 

I have feeling Amir may have started out with the best intentions ... but $$ and fame and power of the empire that ASR seems to have become have led him/his cohorts to dogmatic doctrines in the guise of "science".

Thanks to manuf. $$ and Patreon and lotta Thumbs Up and Likes and Subscribes and Re-tweets ... and the usual social media daily affirmations like "You Go Gurl" ... and "You Rock" ... and FREE !!! 'quipment to 'view and keep fo'eva ... hey, maybe bare butt cheeks up and sore backs ain't such bad trade-off.

All for the sake of "science". Of course.

Of course ;)

 

 

 

[kumakuma]

1 hour ago, wbh said:

 

Make NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT: My bottom line is to troll like a MoFo and have a good time ... at others expense ;)

 

 

<sarcasm>

 

I think you've found your new home! 

 

Chris loves folks with this approach to life...

 

</sarcasm>

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, wbh said:

But I don't think my strings were quite in tune at ASR ... my bad ;)

 

Yeah. You messed up over there! Anybody can get banned in 15 posts. It takes real skill not get banned after a few thousand.

 

[wbh]

7 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Yeah. You messed up over there! Anybody can get banned in 15 posts. It takes real skill not get banned after a few thousand.

 

Who in the hell wants to WASTE 1000s of posts in BORING hangouts? Folks with a lotta time on their hand ... or science nerds that will micro-mange every post.

I think I did damn good ... most bang for my buck: I.e. the reaction and AMAZING detection of my re-registration attempts (if it ain't some sorta of blanket moratorium ... all 'cause o' lil' ol' me ).

[pkane2001]

16 minutes ago, wbh said:

Who in the hell wants to WASTE 1000s of posts in BORING hangouts? Folks with a lotta time on their hand ... or science nerds that will micro-mange every post.

I think I did damn good ... most bang for my buck: I.e. the reaction and AMAZING detection of my re-registration attempts (if it ain't some sorta of blanket moratorium ... all 'cause o' lil' ol' me ).

 

I am amazed they would go to such length to develop new technology just to block the lil' ol' you and your registration attempts! Don't let the nerds win, man, keep trying to re-register. You'll succeed one day and then you can show them all who's the real man!

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, wbh said:

Make NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT: My bottom line is to troll like a MoFo and have a good time ... at others expense ;)

I have no idea if you’re being real or sarcastic. If this is true, don’t let the door hit you on the way out. If you’re being sarcastic, I’d appreciate a little better hint so I understand. 

[Axial]

Too much music not enough time.

I've read some @ the beginning, just enough to get Autumn wet and leaves flying in the wind ...

 

I'd rather have them measured than not. I'd like to see ultra expensive audio gear measured than not. Why? Because sound matters.  

 

 

[mav52]

On 10/8/2020 at 5:20 PM, wbh said:

Yes, this happened to me. And I was never warned. 

Amazing how highly Google ranks ASR in any SERP (search engine results page). E.g. Google info on any given dac (Topping, SMSL, even Schiit) and ASR is nat or near the top of results. And ASR's Alexa ratting is getting right up there (~63k) next to similar-themed hydrogenaudio. 

Some $$ -- Patreon, AdSense, whatever -- must be rollin' in ... and that ($$) rules over "science" any day.

 I got banned there for mentioning I would rather listen to the speakers or the device. I don't value measurements as a major criteria for purchase as I let me ears decide, and that's my last visit. That site is a playground for the man and his little cartoon figures.