Popular Post littlej0e Posted May 19, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2023 Below are the notional hardware and BIOS configurations I used to build my "Faiko" or "Fake Taiko" DIY server. Hardware PCIe Card Configuration: Slot 1: Intel Optane P900 Boot Drive Slot 2: JCAT USB XE Slot 3: Open (I use this for emergency video card access. Setting is configurable in BIOS) Slot 4: Open/Expansion Slot 5: Future network card that doesn't suck Slot 6: Open/Expansion Slot 7: Asus HyperX multi-M.2 (populated w/2 x SK Hynix Gold P31 2TB low power M.2 drives) Notes: I based most of this configuration on the CPU systems architecture diagram in the Appendix section of Asus's motherboard documentation (greater physical separation between PCIe cards should also help maximize heat dissipation). In theory, this hardware configuration should help minimize motherboard bus traffic, especially bus transits, which seem to be vital for minimizing latency and noise (I also assume this is a big reason why using ramroot tends to be so effective in traditional server builds). Consequently, keeping the USB, boot and storage drives isolated to the same secondary CPU and away from the primary CPU seems to yield significant performance gains. Combining this hardware strategy with software-based CPU pinning seems to be even more effective. During normal operation, I noted CPU 1 routinely exhibited higher average operating temperatures by approx. 2°C compared to CPU2. This could be caused by variations in cooling efficiency, component placement, or overall motherboard design (i.e., the 24 pin MB power connector is located directly above CPU1). But the difference in operating temps seem to support the idea that CPU1 is indeed doing more processing on average. Asus’s CPU architecture diagram appears to support this as well. Hence, I chose CPU2 to act as the primary processer for boot and storage drives as well as the USB card (for now…more testing and reading is required). Using an external USB PCIe card seems to make a ton of sense for these builds as data calls don’t need to traverse the USB host/bus controller on the motherboard or CPU1 to get to the controller in the first place. Thereby saving both CPU cycles and bus transits. Using a network PCIe card also seems to make sense, albeit a bit less than a USB card. If you use network ports just to control Roon, occasionally upload music, or manage the server, then using the built-in ethernet is probably fine. In theory, however, a dedicated PCIe network card should be able to isolate network noise significantly better, keeping most of it contained between the PCIe bus and primary CPU. The decision to leverage a “relatively affordable” dual CPU architecture that allows for both physical and logical process pinning is one of many strokes of genius baked into this design. The further I plummet down this rabbit hole, the more convinced I become that Emile Bok is a visitor from another planet. The following settings are intended for use with the Asus WS C621E Sage motherboard based on BIOS version 6801 (download BIOS here https://www.asus.com/commercial-servers-workstations/ws-c621e-sage/helpdesk_bios/ and follow instructions to upgrade). Configurations are broken down by BIOS tab. If no changes are annotated, leave on default settings. Main Set date and time AiTweaker Ai Overclock Tuner manual 100 CPU1 & CPU2 Input Voltage set to lowest value possible, then slowly increase up to 2/3rds of the maximum reported voltage (for safety) or until you find your sweet spot for sonic performance. For example, the minimum reported voltage for my 4109T CPUs is 0.800, but I couldn't boot below 0.920 and was forced to start there. Please note that reducing CPU voltage to the floor significantly reduced dynamics and collapsed staging a bit. But it did increase clarity and significantly lowered the noise floor. Balance is key and this is merely a starting point. Find what works best for you and your system. DRAM Voltage & VCCIO More to come. Need to thoroughly investigate RAM capabilities and settings. External Digi+ Power Control More to come. This section is not for the uninitiated. You should know exactly what you are doing before playing here. Otherwise, you could damage components. Performance Tuning Optimized Performance Setting By Workload Latency Optimized Core Optimizer DISABLED Engine Boost DISABLED Power Balancer DISABLED Advanced ACPI Settings Enable ACPI Auto Configuration DISABLED Enable Hibernation DISABLED ACPI Sleep State SUSPEND DISABLED Super IO Configuration Serial Port 1 Configuration Serial Port Disabled CPU Storage Configuration PCIEx16_7 [PCIEx16_7 HYPER M.2 X16 (data)] Configure this setting to match the corresponding PCIe slot in which the Hyper M.2 drive is installed (i.e., PCIEx16_1, PCIEx16_2, etc.) You must configure this setting to use more than one M.2 drive at a time. Onboard L210 LAN Configuration Intel LAN1 Enable DISABLED Intel LAN1 ROM Type DISABLED Intel LAN2 Enable DISABLED Intel LAN2 ROM Type DISABLED Ports should only be disabled if you are using a PCIE network card. Otherwise, it is probably best to leave at least one enabled. APM Restore on AC Power Loss Power On (optional) Power On By PCIe DISABLED Power On By RTC DISABLED PCI Subsystem Settings PCI Devices Common Settings: Load RT32 Image DISABLED Above 4G Decoding DISABLED SR-IOV Support DISABLED PCI Express Device Register Settings Relaxed Ordering ENABLED Extended Tag ENABLED No Snoop ENABLED Unpopulated Links Power Off PCI OPROM Slot Options Slots 1 thru 7 DISABLED Audio Configuration DISABLED ASMedia Storage Controller DISABLED Platform Configuration PCH Configuration PCH SATA Configuration SATA Controller DISABLE All SATA Ports DISABLE These ports should only be disabled if you are not connecting any SATA devices to the motherboard. PCH eSATA Configuration DISABLE USB Configuration USB Per-Connector Disable ENABLE All USB ports DISABLE These ports should only be disabled if you are not connecting any USB devices directly to the motherboard. Runtime Error Logging System Errors DISABLE WHEA Support DISABLE Socket Configuration Processor Configuration Hyper-Threading [ALL] ENABLE Enable Intel® TXT DISABLE VMX DISABLE Enable SMX DISABLE Hardware Prefetcher DISABLE L2RFO Prefetch Disable DISABLE Adjacent Cache Prefetch DISABLE DCU Streamer Prefetcher DISABLE DCU IP Prefetcher DISABLE LLC Prefetch DISABLE DCU Mode 32KB 8Way Without ECC Extended APIC DISABLE AES-NI DISABLE UPI Configuration UPI General Configuration Link Speed Mode Fast Link Frequency Select 9.76 GT/s More testing is needed. I tend to hard set as many power and voltage settings as possible to help minimize fluctuations in power delivery. But this setting seems particularly interesting and "fiddle worthy" given its ability to restrict chatter/direct electrical transference between CPUs. Memory Configuration Memory Frequency 2400MHz I set this based on Intel's recommended maximum memory speed of 2400MHz for the 4109T CPUs (same goes for 4210 CPUs btw). So much more testing and recommendations are needed here! RAM can certainly be under volted, but I haven't done so yet as the kit I’m using is already designed to run on low voltage. I want to test RAM mirroring between CPU DIMM sets (yep, it’s a thing in BIOS). It will almost certainly send latency through the roof and adversely affect SQ, but I think it's still worth testing. IIO Configuration Intel® VT for Directed I/O (VT-d) DISABLED Advanced Power Management Configuration CPU P State Control Turbo Mode DISABLED CPU T State Control Software Controlled T-States DISABLED Event Logs Change Smbios Event Log Settings Smbios Event Log DISABLED Monitor CPU FAN1&2 FRNT FAN1 Mode Manual 0 FRNT FAN2&3 Mode Manual 0 FRNT FAN4&5 Mode Manual 0 REAR FAN1&2 Mode Manual 0 Security Secure Boot DISABLED Boot Bootup NumLock Stage Off (this annoys the bejeezus out of me. Don’t Judge!) Boot Option Priorities Boot Option #1 Select OS installed on Intel P900 drive Save & Exit Save Profile Select profile slot from list Name Profile “Sippin’ Power Baseline” or something equally ridiculous that will remind you exactly what this profile is built for. OK Save Changes and Reset OK Notes Disclaimer - The aforementioned BIOS settings are not perfect, complete, or guaranteed to yield better sound quality. My goal is to provide a relatively safe "electrical minimum" starting point at which DIY folks can tinker and build their own configs. Please view this list for what it is; a series of notional settings and guidelines, not rules, that very well may turn out to be completely worthless. I HIGHLY recommend enabling/disabling each of these settings one at a time, then qualifying each with your own listening tests. You can then tweak your system according to YOUR ears, on YOUR gear, to suit YOUR preferences. Do the work. It is almost always worth it in the end. Disabling/enabling all settings listed above seems to yield a significant decrease in overall SQ (especially dynamics and presence), but there does appear to be some legitimate benefits to combining some variation of both "minimum power" and "controlled power" design methodologies. For example, killing all unnecessary background processes and hardware like SATA, USB, virtualization services, error logging, etc. seems to lower the noise floor quite substantially. Which tends to give the impression of a "blacker background" and illusion of better separation as a result. Please remember that Taiko doesn't necessarily enable/disable any of these settings. It would be great if someone with a legit Taiko Extreme could chime in with some BIOS settings (it also wouldn’t shock me to learn that Taiko uses a custom, or heavily modified, version of BIOS for their builds). EuphonyOS - Try using the Intel Optane P900 boot drive instead of ramroot with EuphonyOS. The P900 sounds significantly better to my ears. It’s not even close. I plan to experiment more with Windows IoT, AudioLinux, etc. in the future. However, based on what I’ve read in this thread, Windows IoT is the OS to beat and can sound even better than Euphony. Though it does seem to require significantly more manual process tweaking and a bit more effort to maintain. No annual subscription cost though… Versatility - In my humble opinion, the best part about this server is versatility. Through the simple swapping of hardware components or changing software/BIOS settings, you can tweak the sound to suit a wide range of tastes and desired performance levels. I don't know of another COTS (Commercial Off-The-Shelf) or DIY server recipe that can match that. Cost - All in, I spent just over 12k on this build and devoted months to methodically scrounging for used parts in classifieds, eBay, etc. to keep costs down. I’m guessing the average build cost falls somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-18k USD, depending on selected components. Gun to my head, if I had to do it all over again I would likely go this same route. But I think it depends on your personal goals: People with true "mid-fi/wanna-be-hi-fi" systems like me can probably extract the most value from these builds as the source is usually one of the last components to be upgraded and is often the weakest link of most systems at this level. As a point of reference, the total cost of my audio system is approx. 80k. I spent it as wisely as I knew how and my system is chock-full of ultra-high-end components from the early 2,000s (you may want to consider this approach if you are looking for a dash of champagne flavor in your discount beer. You’d be astounded by the level of performance you can achieve for far less money). If you currently have, or plan to build, a true top-of-the-line audio system (or think you might in the future), I would recommend buying a legit Taiko instead. The extra 20'ish% bump in performance you'll get with a legit Taiko could be massive depending on what you have around it. Plus, you'll get all the Taiko awesomesauce like custom OS/software, tweaks, support, warranty, future upgrades, etc. Lastly, feel free to add, change, delete, correct, repost or distribute any of this as you see fit. In the end, the goal here is to help the community…not harm it by hording information. - lj NanoSword, Exocer, Volfram and 10 others 11 2 Link to comment
kyoya78 Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 On 5/6/2022 at 10:58 AM, Superdad said: Since someone mentioned the AfterDark Nocturnes optical USB box set, and since I know a bit about all these various optical USB solutions at the chip level (see my prior posts, though I won't go into too much detail about the actual transceiver and translator chips used--there are only a couple of basic variants), I thought I would post about some experiments that I finally got around to today. [With EtherREGEN and ISO REGEN, and UltraCaps all out of production, and JS-2 production running ahead--I have a lot more time these days while we wait for new board prototypes to come back. ] As mentioned, the Audiowise OPTO/Lindy boxes are just private labels of an Asian piece and technically about the same as the offerings from https://www.transwan.com.cn And then there are a bunch of 2-box SFP setups on AliExpress, which are based on this somewhat obscure USB2.0 extender/controller chip: http://www.wch-ic.com/products/CH317.html But its usage is a bit cumbersome and not ideal since it must be paired with Ethernet RGMII>SGMII PHY transceiver chip. Here is the box set that uses that technique: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002086574264.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.4c071d55Z1kFJM&algo_pvid=9cc51ad5-3213-40d3-a0d7-29d1c49f0010&algo_expid=9cc51ad5-3213-40d3-a0d7-29d1c49f0010-3&btsid=0b0a555916223217208672489e55c8&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_ The one I bought is exactly that but in black. If you look closely at the jack layout of the AfterDark Nocturnes, you will see it is based on these same boards. Only AfterDark added internally an OCXO--and I think they give you a 10MHz clock out. (Not sure how they do that since the USB board needs 25MHz and I am sure they are not using a clock synth to take 10MHz OCXO and make 25MHx; maybe it has two OCXOs.) These CH317 chip based units, as well as the method used in the OPTO/Lindy and Transwan boxes is not as clean and simple as the translator chip used in Monoprice Slimrun and FIBBR Alpha USB (same as the now discontinued Adnaco/Everpro SU-1 which saw a lot of favor for a bit with Asian audiophiles). And even though none of these devices are actually developed with power and clocking, flip-flop, and USB output techniques that ought to be used for best SQ, I think the simpler chip versions sound MUCH better (sorry I am avoiding naming the chip directly for several reasons; the curious can figure it out.; I have 500 of them that might find there way into a product someday...) So here are some pics of my experiments today with the optical SFP box set I got from AliExpress: The transmit side box on the bottom shelf is getting USB from my Pareto Audio (@lmitche) NUC that is running tweaked AudioLinux Roon Server & Bridge. Then SFP/fiber to the receive box positioned with a UpTone USPCB Adapter right at the input of the heavily modified (thanks @scan80269!) Singxer SU-1, which in turn feeds I2S over HDMI cable (wow those cables can sound really different!) to an original Holo Spring Level 3. All devices (including the EtherREGEN) are being powered by beta boards of a big new LPS we are working on (ignore that they are in UltraCap LPS-1.2 cases, it was just a convenient size for the beta boards; actual supply will with completely different, much larger, with Cree diodes, triple regulation, and special transformers). Anyway, today's test was the Aliexpress optical box set versus the Monoprice Slimrun. Long story short, the Monoprice is MUCH better in every way. Looking forward to receiving the FIBBR Alpha Optical USB as it is the same chip/tech as I refer to above--as used in the Monoprice--but gets powered at the downstream end. Lastly, you may notice a beta unit of the Pi2Design Mercury streamer in acrylic case on the floor. On kind loan to me from @bobfa. I have been having a lot of fun with it and its great appeal is that it is Ethernet to I2S (and AES, S/PDIF) with good clocks and regs and careful layout. But it is crazy just how different server/player s/w and operating systems sound on it. Have so far tried Volumio and PiCorePlayer, the latter I am liking with both LMS and Squeezelite running on its Pi Compute4 module. With a great PS it is not within a hair's breath of my Pareto NUC/Roon setup, though @lmitche will be doing a major AudioLinux upgrade for me tomorrow and that is likely to move the goal. It has been great to have some days to play around, experiment, and enjoy more music--though I would welcome a few more JS-2 orders this month... Can't wait until @JohnSwensoncomes down from Washington for a 4 day visit in June. It has been a long time since he heard my system, plus we are likely to be playing with some other secret prototype goodies! Have a great weekend everyone. --Alex C. Hi Alex, How was your experience trying the FIBBR Alpha Optical USB? Link to comment
littlej0e Posted May 22, 2023 Share Posted May 22, 2023 I just acquired a license for Win 10 Ent IoT 2021 (thanks for the guide to obtaining a legit license through Avantech btw) to compare with Euphony 4 on my DIY Faiko. I wanted see if there are any proven recommendations for software optimization tools. I'm not asking for specific optimizations mind you, as I remember reading that Nenon & Co. will post a guide at some point in the future. I'm only asking for consensus recommendations for tools. I'm used to gutting and trimming Windows manually, which is a supreme PITA, so I'm all about investing in something that can make my life significantly easier (and hopefully survive Windows updates). Based on my reading thus far, Process Lasso seems like the de facto standard and an absolute no-brainer for this use case. But I also see other options like Audiophile Optimizer (which may or may not support Win 10 IoT?!?), Fidelizer, XXHighEnd, etc.. Some of these seem additive to PL while others appear to be semi drop-in replacements. From an IT perspective, all of these add-ons (save for PL) make me nervous. Most seem like they are run by lone wolf devs that slap a GUI over a series of glorified PowerShell scripts, which makes me instantly wary of their ability to support said fancy pants scripts over term. Does anyone use any of these, or other, tools with their DIY Taiko that can share any feedback or experiences? drjimwillie 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Nenon Posted May 23, 2023 Author Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2023 1 hour ago, littlej0e said: I just acquired a license for Win 10 Ent IoT 2021 (thanks for the guide to obtaining a legit license through Avantech btw) to compare with Euphony 4 on my DIY Faiko. I wanted see if there are any proven recommendations for software optimization tools. I'm not asking for specific optimizations mind you, as I remember reading that Nenon & Co. will post a guide at some point in the future. I'm only asking for consensus recommendations for tools. I'm used to gutting and trimming Windows manually, which is a supreme PITA, so I'm all about investing in something that can make my life significantly easier (and hopefully survive Windows updates). Based on my reading thus far, Process Lasso seems like the de facto standard and an absolute no-brainer for this use case. But I also see other options like Audiophile Optimizer (which may or may not support Win 10 IoT?!?), Fidelizer, XXHighEnd, etc.. Some of these seem additive to PL while others appear to be semi drop-in replacements. From an IT perspective, all of these add-ons (save for PL) make me nervous. Most seem like they are run by lone wolf devs that slap a GUI over a series of glorified PowerShell scripts, which makes me instantly wary of their ability to support said fancy pants scripts over term. Does anyone use any of these, or other, tools with their DIY Taiko that can share any feedback or experiences? I used NTLite to remove as many Windows components as possible and ProcessLasso to assign processes to cores/cpu. The idea is to isolate the OS processes to one core and music processes to the other. littlej0e and drjimwillie 1 1 Industry disclosure: Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Aries Cerat, Audio Mirror, Sean Jacobs https://chicagohifi.com Link to comment
SK8 Posted May 23, 2023 Share Posted May 23, 2023 I think I will give Windows 11 PE a try when I finish my build. Check the posts from seeteeyou on page 210 of this thread. littlej0e 1 Link to comment
drjimwillie Posted May 23, 2023 Share Posted May 23, 2023 I hope everyone is having fun with their projects and enjoying some good music. I am building the DIY Taiko Server with the sage motherboard in the DIY Taiko case. I am also building the unregulated power supply and I have the big Taiko Cap, to save space. I ordered two of the Hi-Cut B custom chokes, which I see are about to ship. I have not assembled the Taiko case, because I am waiting to see how creative people need to be to get these two chokes to fit with the sage motherboard. My thinking is, if the case is disassembled, it will be easier to put on my drill press to drill, extra holes, to mount the chokes. I am hoping people will help me think through the alternative of mounting the power supply externally. Am I understanding correctly, that the wisdom is that it is better to mount the power supply in with the motherboard? I am wondering why this is correct? The downside of mounting the PSU internally are the heat and the EMI. The downside of mounting the PSU externally is the two extra connectors and the extra length of wire. Are there ways to get around the downside of the external PSU? Do we need to use better connectors? Do we need to use more wire? would a four, five, six pin connector be helpful? I am using the Mundorf Angelique wire. Is it better to add wire to individual pins, rather than double up the wire coming off of one pin? (should I use the connectors to facilitate a ground wire between the server and the PSU?) I have one of the older HDPlex - H5, cases left over from my CAPS pipeline build, that I could use to house the PSU. (I have to see if that case is tall enough to fit the big cap or if I might need to mount it sideways.) Thank you, Will littlej0e 1 Link to comment
MarcelNL Posted May 23, 2023 Share Posted May 23, 2023 What heat does the PSU generate? The active rectifyers are highly efficient, the heat generated in the chokes is not that much. My PSU sits below the MB, passively cooled Ryzen 9 16 core CPU and core temps are around 38'C. EMI can be shielded. ISP, glass to Fritz!box 5530, another Fritz!box 5530 for audio only in bridged mode on LPS, cat8.1, Zyxel switch on LPS, Finisar <1475BTL>Solarflare X2522-25G, external wifi AP, AMD 9 16 core, passive cooling ,Aorus Master x570, LPSU with Taiko ATX, 8Gb Apacer RAM, femto SSD on LPS, Pink Faun I2S ultra OCXO on akiko LPS, home grown RJ45 I2S cable, Metrum Adagio DAC3, RCA 70-A and Miyaima Zero for mono, G2 PL519 tube amps. Link to comment
drjimwillie Posted May 23, 2023 Share Posted May 23, 2023 Hi Marce, thank you for the reply. Do you think it will be much of an issue to get these two big chokes to fit? Link to comment
MarcelNL Posted May 23, 2023 Share Posted May 23, 2023 great question...I do not know what size the chassis is and what size that MB has...I'm planning to use 4 chokes in my build, but I'll make a case the size I need. (probably need a forklift to move it) I reckon height will be the limiting bit on the Taiko DIY chassis, I recall it being fairly high... ISP, glass to Fritz!box 5530, another Fritz!box 5530 for audio only in bridged mode on LPS, cat8.1, Zyxel switch on LPS, Finisar <1475BTL>Solarflare X2522-25G, external wifi AP, AMD 9 16 core, passive cooling ,Aorus Master x570, LPSU with Taiko ATX, 8Gb Apacer RAM, femto SSD on LPS, Pink Faun I2S ultra OCXO on akiko LPS, home grown RJ45 I2S cable, Metrum Adagio DAC3, RCA 70-A and Miyaima Zero for mono, G2 PL519 tube amps. Link to comment
Popular Post lwr Posted May 23, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted May 23, 2023 4 hours ago, drjimwillie said: I hope everyone is having fun with their projects and enjoying some good music. I am building the DIY Taiko Server with the sage motherboard in the DIY Taiko case. I am also building the unregulated power supply and I have the big Taiko Cap, to save space. I ordered two of the Hi-Cut B custom chokes, which I see are about to ship. I have not assembled the Taiko case, because I am waiting to see how creative people need to be to get these two chokes to fit with the sage motherboard. My thinking is, if the case is disassembled, it will be easier to put on my drill press to drill, extra holes, to mount the chokes. I am hoping people will help me think through the alternative of mounting the power supply externally. Am I understanding correctly, that the wisdom is that it is better to mount the power supply in with the motherboard? I am wondering why this is correct? The downside of mounting the PSU internally are the heat and the EMI. The downside of mounting the PSU externally is the two extra connectors and the extra length of wire. Are there ways to get around the downside of the external PSU? Do we need to use better connectors? Do we need to use more wire? would a four, five, six pin connector be helpful? I am using the Mundorf Angelique wire. Is it better to add wire to individual pins, rather than double up the wire coming off of one pin? (should I use the connectors to facilitate a ground wire between the server and the PSU?) I have one of the older HDPlex - H5, cases left over from my CAPS pipeline build, that I could use to house the PSU. (I have to see if that case is tall enough to fit the big cap or if I might need to mount it sideways.) Thank you, Will I am waiting to see what capacitor and choke configuration Nenon settles on before I try and decide how I’m going to manage to get it all into the Taiko case. The HI-Cut B custom chokes are huge, but by locating the Taiko rectifier board and Taiko ATX board above the motherboard or on the inside vertical walls, I do expect to be able to get everything mounted inside the chassis. The mounting position of the Taiko transformer in the AC input, fuse, and transformer area leaves a fair amount empty space inside. It is likely possible to relocate the transformer in that space father toward the rear of the chassis, and then mount the Taiko rectifier board vertically inside the front wall of the space. While I wait to find out what combination of chokes and capacitors Nenon settles on, I am using the single choke with Taiko Mundorf capacitor loosely fitted inside the unmodified Taiko chassis, as shown in the attached picture MarcelNL, NanoSword, Exocer and 2 others 4 1 SB88200 cable modem, EdgeRouterX SFP router, 2 series PFU Buffalo BS-GS2016 switches w/ SR7T LPS and Finisar FTLX1475D3BTL SFPs, Taiko NetCard, JCAT USBCard XE w/ JCAT Optimo 3 Duo LPS; DIY Taiko Extreme w/ Taiko DC-ATX, and Nenon design Level 3 supply; Denafrips GAIA DDC w/ Revelation Audio Prophecy Cryro Silver I2S connection to Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC; modified Pass Labs XP22 preamp, Pass X600.8 monoblocks, restored and modified Sound Lab M-1 electrostats with hot rod backplates Link to comment
drjimwillie Posted May 23, 2023 Share Posted May 23, 2023 I see what you were saying about relocating, the Rectifier and the ATX will free up a huge amount of space. (thanks for the picture.) If we add the shielding the rest of the way around the motherboard, like they do in the actual Taiko chassis, that will give us opportunities/space to mount the ATX and the rectifier. do you think we need to worry about EMI from the chokes? I would think yes because the coils must throw some kind of magnetic field. aren’t we supposed to mount them perpendicular to each other so the fields do not interact? Link to comment
lwr Posted May 23, 2023 Share Posted May 23, 2023 17 minutes ago, drjimwillie said: I see what you were saying about relocating, the Rectifier and the ATX will free up a huge amount of space. (thanks for the picture.) If we add the shielding the rest of the way around the motherboard, like they do in the actual Taiko chassis, that will give us opportunities/space to mount the ATX and the rectifier. do you think we need to worry about EMI from the chokes? I would think yes because the coils must throw some kind of magnetic field. aren’t we supposed to mount them perpendicular to each other so the fields do not interact? Yes, I do plan to mount the chokes at right angles to each other, most likely in in front left corner, and I may box them out with walls of my-metal. I too have found that Mundorf Angelique wire sounds quite good for power supply wiring. To get the lowest total contact resistance, I look to run a separate wire to each pin of the each receptacle. I get the Angelique wire without insulation and then use silk sheathing, and then apply a heat shrink tubing outer layer to protect the silk sheathing. For the JCAT USB XE card and the Taiko network card, I plan to use Mundorf SG alloy wire. SB88200 cable modem, EdgeRouterX SFP router, 2 series PFU Buffalo BS-GS2016 switches w/ SR7T LPS and Finisar FTLX1475D3BTL SFPs, Taiko NetCard, JCAT USBCard XE w/ JCAT Optimo 3 Duo LPS; DIY Taiko Extreme w/ Taiko DC-ATX, and Nenon design Level 3 supply; Denafrips GAIA DDC w/ Revelation Audio Prophecy Cryro Silver I2S connection to Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC; modified Pass Labs XP22 preamp, Pass X600.8 monoblocks, restored and modified Sound Lab M-1 electrostats with hot rod backplates Link to comment
baconbrain Posted May 23, 2023 Share Posted May 23, 2023 5 hours ago, drjimwillie said: The downside of mounting the PSU externally is the two extra connectors and the extra length of wire. Will, I decided to go the external PSU Housing route given that it made more breathing space available for the mobo (plus PCIe components). I also wanted to have some playing room for future modifications going forward. Although Taiko decided to place everything in one box, there are many manufacturers who propogate separate enclosures. Which of the two truely offer the best sonic benefit, and to what degree, is something which I cannot answer. Imo it probably really comes down to personal preference and what is more important to you. I can only tell you that I am quite happy with my external solution using jaeger connectors and the shortest possible length of wiring between the two. Link to comment
MarcelNL Posted May 23, 2023 Share Posted May 23, 2023 My thoughts are that is all comes down to implementation...throwing the PSU in a separate case and haphazardly selecting some lamp cord to connect it will surely sound worse than a one box solution but a one box solution can also be messed up sonically. I would experiment with wires and connectors to find out what works, I personally like the bare wire wound with silk approach but would probably use a couple of stretches in parallel having heard what tripling the 14AWG UPOCC I'm using for the 36V line does. lwr 1 ISP, glass to Fritz!box 5530, another Fritz!box 5530 for audio only in bridged mode on LPS, cat8.1, Zyxel switch on LPS, Finisar <1475BTL>Solarflare X2522-25G, external wifi AP, AMD 9 16 core, passive cooling ,Aorus Master x570, LPSU with Taiko ATX, 8Gb Apacer RAM, femto SSD on LPS, Pink Faun I2S ultra OCXO on akiko LPS, home grown RJ45 I2S cable, Metrum Adagio DAC3, RCA 70-A and Miyaima Zero for mono, G2 PL519 tube amps. Link to comment
SK8 Posted May 23, 2023 Share Posted May 23, 2023 4 hours ago, lwr said: I am waiting to see what capacitor and choke configuration Nenon settles on before I try and decide how I’m going to manage to get it all into the Taiko case. The HI-Cut B custom chokes are huge, but by locating the Taiko rectifier board and Taiko ATX board above the motherboard or on the inside vertical walls, I do expect to be able to get everything mounted inside the chassis. The mounting position of the Taiko transformer in the AC input, fuse, and transformer area leaves a fair amount empty space inside. It is likely possible to relocate the transformer in that space father toward the rear of the chassis, and then mount the Taiko rectifier board vertically inside the front wall of the space. While I wait to find out what combination of chokes and capacitors Nenon settles on, I am using the single choke with Taiko Mundorf capacitor loosely fitted inside the unmodified Taiko chassis, as shown in the attached picture The way you mount the Taiko transformer to the aluminium wall through a piece of hard wood may not help much on vibration. Ideally the M8 screw should not have contact with the enclosure metal. I suggest you drill a big hole on the aluminium wall to expose the screw head and mount the 4 corners of the wood to the aluminium wall. lwr 1 Link to comment
tuochongle Posted May 24, 2023 Share Posted May 24, 2023 On 5/19/2023 at 1:18 AM, littlej0e said: Below are the notional hardware and BIOS configurations I used to build my "Faiko" or "Fake Taiko" DIY server. Hardware PCIe Card Configuration: Slot 1: Intel Optane P900 Boot Drive Slot 2: JCAT USB XE Slot 3: Open (I use this for emergency video card access. Setting is configurable in BIOS) Slot 4: Open/Expansion Slot 5: Future network card that doesn't suck Slot 6: Open/Expansion Slot 7: Asus HyperX multi-M.2 (populated w/2 x SK Hynix Gold P31 2TB low power M.2 drives) Notes: I based most of this configuration on the CPU systems architecture diagram in the Appendix section of Asus's motherboard documentation (greater physical separation between PCIe cards should also help maximize heat dissipation). In theory, this hardware configuration should help minimize motherboard bus traffic, especially bus transits, which seem to be vital for minimizing latency and noise (I also assume this is a big reason why using ramroot tends to be so effective in traditional server builds). Consequently, keeping the USB, boot and storage drives isolated to the same secondary CPU and away from the primary CPU seems to yield significant performance gains. Combining this hardware strategy with software-based CPU pinning seems to be even more effective. During normal operation, I noted CPU 1 routinely exhibited higher average operating temperatures by approx. 2°C compared to CPU2. This could be caused by variations in cooling efficiency, component placement, or overall motherboard design (i.e., the 24 pin MB power connector is located directly above CPU1). But the difference in operating temps seem to support the idea that CPU1 is indeed doing more processing on average. Asus’s CPU architecture diagram appears to support this as well. Hence, I chose CPU2 to act as the primary processer for boot and storage drives as well as the USB card (for now…more testing and reading is required). Using an external USB PCIe card seems to make a ton of sense for these builds as data calls don’t need to traverse the USB host/bus controller on the motherboard or CPU1 to get to the controller in the first place. Thereby saving both CPU cycles and bus transits. Using a network PCIe card also seems to make sense, albeit a bit less than a USB card. If you use network ports just to control Roon, occasionally upload music, or manage the server, then using the built-in ethernet is probably fine. In theory, however, a dedicated PCIe network card should be able to isolate network noise significantly better, keeping most of it contained between the PCIe bus and primary CPU. The decision to leverage a “relatively affordable” dual CPU architecture that allows for both physical and logical process pinning is one of many strokes of genius baked into this design. The further I plummet down this rabbit hole, the more convinced I become that Emile Bok is a visitor from another planet. The following settings are intended for use with the Asus WS C621E Sage motherboard based on BIOS version 6801 (download BIOS here https://www.asus.com/commercial-servers-workstations/ws-c621e-sage/helpdesk_bios/ and follow instructions to upgrade). Configurations are broken down by BIOS tab. If no changes are annotated, leave on default settings. Main Set date and time AiTweaker Ai Overclock Tuner manual 100 CPU1 & CPU2 Input Voltage set to lowest value possible, then slowly increase up to 2/3rds of the maximum reported voltage (for safety) or until you find your sweet spot for sonic performance. For example, the minimum reported voltage for my 4109T CPUs is 0.800, but I couldn't boot below 0.920 and was forced to start there. Please note that reducing CPU voltage to the floor significantly reduced dynamics and collapsed staging a bit. But it did increase clarity and significantly lowered the noise floor. Balance is key and this is merely a starting point. Find what works best for you and your system. DRAM Voltage & VCCIO More to come. Need to thoroughly investigate RAM capabilities and settings. External Digi+ Power Control More to come. This section is not for the uninitiated. You should know exactly what you are doing before playing here. Otherwise, you could damage components. Performance Tuning Optimized Performance Setting By Workload Latency Optimized Core Optimizer DISABLED Engine Boost DISABLED Power Balancer DISABLED Advanced ACPI Settings Enable ACPI Auto Configuration DISABLED Enable Hibernation DISABLED ACPI Sleep State SUSPEND DISABLED Super IO Configuration Serial Port 1 Configuration Serial Port Disabled CPU Storage Configuration PCIEx16_7 [PCIEx16_7 HYPER M.2 X16 (data)] Configure this setting to match the corresponding PCIe slot in which the Hyper M.2 drive is installed (i.e., PCIEx16_1, PCIEx16_2, etc.) You must configure this setting to use more than one M.2 drive at a time. Onboard L210 LAN Configuration Intel LAN1 Enable DISABLED Intel LAN1 ROM Type DISABLED Intel LAN2 Enable DISABLED Intel LAN2 ROM Type DISABLED Ports should only be disabled if you are using a PCIE network card. Otherwise, it is probably best to leave at least one enabled. APM Restore on AC Power Loss Power On (optional) Power On By PCIe DISABLED Power On By RTC DISABLED PCI Subsystem Settings PCI Devices Common Settings: Load RT32 Image DISABLED Above 4G Decoding DISABLED SR-IOV Support DISABLED PCI Express Device Register Settings Relaxed Ordering ENABLED Extended Tag ENABLED No Snoop ENABLED Unpopulated Links Power Off PCI OPROM Slot Options Slots 1 thru 7 DISABLED Audio Configuration DISABLED ASMedia Storage Controller DISABLED Platform Configuration PCH Configuration PCH SATA Configuration SATA Controller DISABLE All SATA Ports DISABLE These ports should only be disabled if you are not connecting any SATA devices to the motherboard. PCH eSATA Configuration DISABLE USB Configuration USB Per-Connector Disable ENABLE All USB ports DISABLE These ports should only be disabled if you are not connecting any USB devices directly to the motherboard. Runtime Error Logging System Errors DISABLE WHEA Support DISABLE Socket Configuration Processor Configuration Hyper-Threading [ALL] ENABLE Enable Intel® TXT DISABLE VMX DISABLE Enable SMX DISABLE Hardware Prefetcher DISABLE L2RFO Prefetch Disable DISABLE Adjacent Cache Prefetch DISABLE DCU Streamer Prefetcher DISABLE DCU IP Prefetcher DISABLE LLC Prefetch DISABLE DCU Mode 32KB 8Way Without ECC Extended APIC DISABLE AES-NI DISABLE UPI Configuration UPI General Configuration Link Speed Mode Fast Link Frequency Select 9.76 GT/s More testing is needed. I tend to hard set as many power and voltage settings as possible to help minimize fluctuations in power delivery. But this setting seems particularly interesting and "fiddle worthy" given its ability to restrict chatter/direct electrical transference between CPUs. Memory Configuration Memory Frequency 2400MHz I set this based on Intel's recommended maximum memory speed of 2400MHz for the 4109T CPUs (same goes for 4210 CPUs btw). So much more testing and recommendations are needed here! RAM can certainly be under volted, but I haven't done so yet as the kit I’m using is already designed to run on low voltage. I want to test RAM mirroring between CPU DIMM sets (yep, it’s a thing in BIOS). It will almost certainly send latency through the roof and adversely affect SQ, but I think it's still worth testing. IIO Configuration Intel® VT for Directed I/O (VT-d) DISABLED Advanced Power Management Configuration CPU P State Control Turbo Mode DISABLED CPU T State Control Software Controlled T-States DISABLED Event Logs Change Smbios Event Log Settings Smbios Event Log DISABLED Monitor CPU FAN1&2 FRNT FAN1 Mode Manual 0 FRNT FAN2&3 Mode Manual 0 FRNT FAN4&5 Mode Manual 0 REAR FAN1&2 Mode Manual 0 Security Secure Boot DISABLED Boot Bootup NumLock Stage Off (this annoys the bejeezus out of me. Don’t Judge!) Boot Option Priorities Boot Option #1 Select OS installed on Intel P900 drive Save & Exit Save Profile Select profile slot from list Name Profile “Sippin’ Power Baseline” or something equally ridiculous that will remind you exactly what this profile is built for. OK Save Changes and Reset OK Notes Disclaimer - The aforementioned BIOS settings are not perfect, complete, or guaranteed to yield better sound quality. My goal is to provide a relatively safe "electrical minimum" starting point at which DIY folks can tinker and build their own configs. Please view this list for what it is; a series of notional settings and guidelines, not rules, that very well may turn out to be completely worthless. I HIGHLY recommend enabling/disabling each of these settings one at a time, then qualifying each with your own listening tests. You can then tweak your system according to YOUR ears, on YOUR gear, to suit YOUR preferences. Do the work. It is almost always worth it in the end. Disabling/enabling all settings listed above seems to yield a significant decrease in overall SQ (especially dynamics and presence), but there does appear to be some legitimate benefits to combining some variation of both "minimum power" and "controlled power" design methodologies. For example, killing all unnecessary background processes and hardware like SATA, USB, virtualization services, error logging, etc. seems to lower the noise floor quite substantially. Which tends to give the impression of a "blacker background" and illusion of better separation as a result. Please remember that Taiko doesn't necessarily enable/disable any of these settings. It would be great if someone with a legit Taiko Extreme could chime in with some BIOS settings (it also wouldn’t shock me to learn that Taiko uses a custom, or heavily modified, version of BIOS for their builds). EuphonyOS - Try using the Intel Optane P900 boot drive instead of ramroot with EuphonyOS. The P900 sounds significantly better to my ears. It’s not even close. I plan to experiment more with Windows IoT, AudioLinux, etc. in the future. However, based on what I’ve read in this thread, Windows IoT is the OS to beat and can sound even better than Euphony. Though it does seem to require significantly more manual process tweaking and a bit more effort to maintain. No annual subscription cost though… Versatility - In my humble opinion, the best part about this server is versatility. Through the simple swapping of hardware components or changing software/BIOS settings, you can tweak the sound to suit a wide range of tastes and desired performance levels. I don't know of another COTS (Commercial Off-The-Shelf) or DIY server recipe that can match that. Cost - All in, I spent just over 12k on this build and devoted months to methodically scrounging for used parts in classifieds, eBay, etc. to keep costs down. I’m guessing the average build cost falls somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-18k USD, depending on selected components. Gun to my head, if I had to do it all over again I would likely go this same route. But I think it depends on your personal goals: People with true "mid-fi/wanna-be-hi-fi" systems like me can probably extract the most value from these builds as the source is usually one of the last components to be upgraded and is often the weakest link of most systems at this level. As a point of reference, the total cost of my audio system is approx. 80k. I spent it as wisely as I knew how and my system is chock-full of ultra-high-end components from the early 2,000s (you may want to consider this approach if you are looking for a dash of champagne flavor in your discount beer. You’d be astounded by the level of performance you can achieve for far less money). If you currently have, or plan to build, a true top-of-the-line audio system (or think you might in the future), I would recommend buying a legit Taiko instead. The extra 20'ish% bump in performance you'll get with a legit Taiko could be massive depending on what you have around it. Plus, you'll get all the Taiko awesomesauce like custom OS/software, tweaks, support, warranty, future upgrades, etc. Lastly, feel free to add, change, delete, correct, repost or distribute any of this as you see fit. In the end, the goal here is to help the community…not harm it by hording information. - lj littlej0e, Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!! littlej0e 1 Link to comment
Popular Post littlej0e Posted May 24, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted May 24, 2023 Quote littlej0e, Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!! @tuochongle You are quite welcome, sir! It's the least I could do considering how much this thread, and many people in it, have helped me build my DIY Taiko. Remember...all of those BIOS settings are just options - NOT GUIDELINES. Play with them methodically and see what works best for you on your system. Don't try enabling all at once as your MB will almost certainly fail to boot and you will need to clear the CMOS to start over. MarcelNL and lwr 2 Link to comment
Popular Post littlej0e Posted May 24, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted May 24, 2023 I had a chance to compare my Windows build vs Euphony and thought I would provide some knee-jerk feedback. @Nenon's recommendations for optimization tools were absolutely spot on. Both NTLite and Process Lasso are phenomenal tools for general IT baboonery, but especially for this use case. NTLite in particular, is shockingly useful in my professional life as well. A million thanks to you, sir. Yet again. EuphonyOS should be the de facto "easy button" recommendation for minimally tech savvy folks, or people that don't want to fiddle with things and just have it work. Euphony is outstanding for what it is and was rock solid stable in my rig. However, one of it's greatest strengths also seems to be it's greatest weakness - lack of shell access severely limits your ability to tweak. Though CPU affinities are semi-configurable through the web GUI and this will likely improve in the future. Cost breakdown: 120€ (approx. $130) annual subscription license. No "buy once, cry once" lifetime license available for version 4. Hardware fingerprinting. You have to submit a support ticket to migrate your license to another machine, or if you upgrade/swap out a component. This gets very old, very quick - especially for someone that builds a lot of machines or likes to do A/B testing between components in the same rig. Always online requirement. This royally pissed me off when I accidentally discovered it. You have up to "100 checks" that can fail reaching back to Euphony's license authentication servers before your installation reverts back to a trial license. For the uninitiated, this is basically Euphony's DRM solution and I have a major axe to grind with it. Not in theory, but in practice. For example, let's say you happen to live high up in the mountains and lost power to your rig while you were away on a multi-week business trip. When you finally returned, you poured a glass of whiskey and sat down in your favorite listening chair, ready to relax and listen to some music. You press play, and after 20 seconds playback cuts off because your installation reverted back to the trial version while you were away, rendering your server completely useless - M0th#$% F#*@ING $#&T B@#!s A#@ P&$^!!! I had to submit a ticket with a refreshed hardware fingerprint to re-license my server. Which means I had to wait 24+ hours before I could use it again or subsequently listen to music. I both understand and appreciate the dev(s) need to protect their product and all of their hard work. I also realize this is/was a very niche' situation. But holding peoples' rigs hostage, for any reason, is one of the quickest ways to lose a customer. Fool me once... All of my personal b1tching aside, Euphony has a truly excellent suite of products, that also includes players and upscalers. Strictly from an SQ perspective, I found Stylus Player to be superior to Roon. All told, Euphony is probably the best "easy button" suite of high performance audio software that I've tried. Windows-based deployments should be the de facto standard for achieving the absolute best sound quality possible. Thus far, W10IoTE has either tied or beat Euphony in nearly every category. It still trails a bit in noise floor, decay, separation and stage depth. But I obviously still have a lot of optimization and tweaking left to do. Cost breakdown: 140€ (approx. $150) for Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC 2021 (lifetime). 40€ (approx. $45) for NTLite (lifetime, but you can renew annually for feature updates). 35€ (approx. $40) for Process Lasso (lifetime). Lots of time spent jumping through hoops, learning, fiddling, trial-and-error, etc. Quantify this however you wish. @SK8 given the success I'm having with W10IoTE, I will almost certainly try Win11PE. Appreciate the recommendation. As always, I hope this helps someone. - lj StreamFidelity, NanoSword, Exocer and 5 others 1 6 1 Link to comment
c-w Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 Yes, If you leave your Euphony machine running and you lost internet connection it will revert back to unregistered status after some time but you don't have to open ticket to "re-register" - just restart the application once you establish internet connection - it should find your registration online and set "registered" status again (in V4, V3 will need you to enter registration code again). Only if your fingerprint changed you have to contact support to update it. Link to comment
littlej0e Posted May 25, 2023 Share Posted May 25, 2023 6 hours ago, c-w said: Yes, If you leave your Euphony machine running and you lost internet connection it will revert back to unregistered status after some time but you don't have to open ticket to "re-register" - just restart the application once you establish internet connection - it should find your registration online and set "registered" status again (in V4, V3 will need you to enter registration code again). Only if your fingerprint changed you have to contact support to update it. This was my understanding as well, but my hardware fingerprint somehow reset while I was away without anyone or anything touching my rig. I therefore concluded that it had to be the online requirement. If not, then this raises even more troubling questions as to what could have caused the hardware fingerprint to reset in the first place. It had to be some effectual combination of losing power, losing internet and/or time as the hardware never changed and no components failed. Regardless of the cause, the end result was the same - I couldn't use my server until I registered it again. I must say that Euphony support is/was excellent and very responsive. But in the end, my server and my ability to listen to music were held hostage by my operating system software. Euphony is excellent and I assume that my situation is an exceptionally rare occurrence. But hopefully the dev(s) can tweak the licensing enforcement a bit to ensure this sort of thing can no longer happen as it can cause tremendous frustration. Link to comment
Popular Post MarcelNL Posted May 25, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted May 25, 2023 did you try Linux based OS/players too? I'm hoping to get to the point where I can arrange an OS shooutout , so far I've tested a lot but haphazerdly and Daphile still comes out on top....will do some more testing once my build is near final (if such a point does exist) littlej0e and lwr 1 1 ISP, glass to Fritz!box 5530, another Fritz!box 5530 for audio only in bridged mode on LPS, cat8.1, Zyxel switch on LPS, Finisar <1475BTL>Solarflare X2522-25G, external wifi AP, AMD 9 16 core, passive cooling ,Aorus Master x570, LPSU with Taiko ATX, 8Gb Apacer RAM, femto SSD on LPS, Pink Faun I2S ultra OCXO on akiko LPS, home grown RJ45 I2S cable, Metrum Adagio DAC3, RCA 70-A and Miyaima Zero for mono, G2 PL519 tube amps. Link to comment
Popular Post littlej0e Posted May 25, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted May 25, 2023 13 minutes ago, MarcelNL said: did you try Linux based OS/players too? I'm hoping to get to the point where I can arrange an OS shooutout , so far I've tested a lot but haphazerdly and Daphile still comes out on top....will do some more testing once my build is near final (if such a point does exist) I did indeed. Euphony is actually Linux based (arch, I think). I also tried AudioLinux, which I was quite fond of, as well as Windows 10 IoT Enterprise 2021 and Windows Server 2019 (I'm reinstalling server 2019 as we speak to compare with W10IoTE 2021). Most Windows OSs I've tried tend to sound a bit warmer to me for whatever reason, while Linux OSs tend to sound a bit cleaner and more clinical with slightly better staging. As always, YMMV and it really depends on what you like, what you are looking for, and what you are most comfortable using and supporting. Have fun comparing them all for yourself! This whole audio hobby is quite the addiction... MarcelNL, lwr and Altec 2 1 Link to comment
NewOldman Posted May 26, 2023 Share Posted May 26, 2023 Best Ever Windows Version for Audiophile??? - Computer Audio - JPLAY - hi-end audio player for Windows Link to comment
Popular Post Nenon Posted May 27, 2023 Author Popular Post Share Posted May 27, 2023 Is anyone interested in any of my Troels Gravesen DIY speakers? I am trying to do some cleaning up and make space for the new speaker system I am working on (happy to share more on that when completed). I have a pair of Troels Gravesen ATS4-HE speakers I've built a few years ago. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ATS4-HE.htm I have spent over $10K plus ~200 hours to build these. Willing to sell them for around half of my cost. (they also have 12'' down firing woofers on the bottom that are not visible on the photos) I also have a pair of 'The Loudspeaker' by Troels. http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/The-Loudspeaker.htm These are also black but don't have the auto paint finish like the ATS4-HEs. I am going to use the 18'' woofers for my new speaker system project, and so if anyone wants to pick those up for $3K, they are yours. You will have to get the 18'' woofers. I also have a pair of Yamaha NS-1000m with the Troels crossovers: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Yamaha-NS1000.htm The original crossover is also inside. These are in a pretty good condition for their age, and I have been storing them for good 10 years. Would like to get $2K for these. The problem with all these are their size and weight. I don't have packing materials, and I am not sure if I would want to ship them. Pick up in the Chicago area is preferred. ciccio1112, drjimwillie, Exocer and 2 others 3 2 Industry disclosure: Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Aries Cerat, Audio Mirror, Sean Jacobs https://chicagohifi.com Link to comment
Gavin1977 Posted May 27, 2023 Share Posted May 27, 2023 Hi @Nenon I’ve been looking at these ATS-4-HE. PM incoming. Nenon 1 Link to comment
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