The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[Mihaylov]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:02 AM, JohnSwenson said:

The only "anti vibration" platforms, footers etc., you can get that actually attenuate seismic noise are roller bearings. They actually work and work very well. Everything else only works on higher frequency noise.

Hi John! Do you think stands such as Finite and Chinese maglev or even that will be effective in combating vibrations below 10 Hz?

[scolley]

On 1/30/2023 at 1:02 AM, JohnSwenson said:

The only "anti vibration" platforms, footers etc., you can get that actually attenuate seismic noise are roller bearings. They actually work and work very well. Everything else only works on higher frequency noise.

 

My preferred way of doing this is a half in thick aluminum slab on top of roller bearings, with the equipment that has really low noise clocks sitting on top.  The ones I use are from Ingress Engineering, their prices are good and they work extremely well.

 

There is on tradeoff with these platforms, it has to be able to freely "roll". This means no stiff cables, either power or signal going to any of the equipment on that platform. Forget about "garden hose" cables. I personally use DIY cables that are very flexible and limp.

I can certainly say that putting Symposium RollerBall Jr's, with the Tungsten ball upgrade, resting on Symposium Fat Padz, made quite the positive audible difference under my DAC, and my stand already had vibration isolation. Possibly a whole lot less money than an expensive stand, depending on how many components need isolation from seismic noise. Though I would underscore that while the Fat Padz made a small difference, the upgrade from the stock balls to the Tungsten balls was a significant bump in SQ.

[dbastin]

On 1/30/2023 at 2:02 PM, JohnSwenson said:

The only "anti vibration" platforms, footers etc., you can get that actually attenuate seismic noise are roller bearings. They actually work and work very well. Everything else only works on higher frequency noise.

What about springs?

Townsend for example.

A business here down under supplies springs that are tuned to 3Hz.

[MarkusBarkus]

...the active solutions claim 1hz and the seimic-type vibration is their sweet-spot. Sorry, I know this is OT.

 

But one question, and seriously, not trying to be jerky: how is a ball-bearing, even with a/two tiny contact point(s) not a form of spike? 

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, dbastin said:

What about springs?

 

Well @JohnSwensonhas been fantasizing for years about our building miniature Euler springs for the ultimate suspension--of circuit boards, whole components, turntables, speakers, whatever.  He could regale you for hours about the benefits of Eulers versus just about every other vibration suspension system. 

[JohnSwenson]

2 hours ago, MarkusBarkus said:

...the active solutions claim 1hz and the seimic-type vibration is their sweet-spot. Sorry, I know this is OT.

 

But one question, and seriously, not trying to be jerky: how is a ball-bearing, even with a/two tiny contact point(s) not a form of spike? 

I'll put several replies in this one

 

.In the vertical axis roller bearings ARE extremely good connectors. The roller bearing effect is purely in the horizontal plane. This is not ideal, but does help a lot. A lot of the seismic noise does seem to be in the horizontal plane. 

 

Spring systems generally work in the vertical direction ( although there are some that also work in the horizontal plane). There are two ways to get springs to work at low frequencies: very low spring constant, but then when you put any weight on them they "bottom out". The other is add mechanical resistance, which absorbs energy. Unfortunately the more energy it absorbs the less effective it becomes. This is why roller bearings work the best with very hard balls, they have lower mechanical resistance. 

 

There IS a spring which does exactly what we want, high DC spring constant to counteract gravity, and very low AC spring constant to allow it to move with very low force, it is called the Euler spring (pronounced "Oiler"). This is a defined as a column under compression which doesn't move until enough force is applied at which point it "buckles" and then small changes in force cause it to move. Spring steel wire or strip work very well for this. As Alex mentioned this is a large topic that I have researched extensively. The problem is this is just for the vertical component (gravity). Thus you need BOTH roller bearings and Euler springs to be fully effective and I don't know anybody that has actually done this.

 

There is something new: the tetrahedral Euler spring. This has three pieces of spring wire in a tetrahedron, with the point pointing up. The point is loaded with the appropriate weight to buckle the three wires which will now move both horizontally and vertically under weak force (very low frequency resonance). Unfortunately this takes very thin wires for "normal" weight audio equipment. You probably need three of these systems at the corners of a platform. One of the tough parts with this design is that the total weight (platform and everything on it) has to be just right for the combination of all 9 wires. Not quite enough and it doesn't move at all, a little too much and the whole thing bottoms out (the tetrahedrons "fall over"). Thus you need some way to add or take away weight from the platform.

 

In order to interact with equipment (push buttons, turn knobs etc) you need constraints so the device doesn't go flying when you push something. The whole assembly will appear to be very unstable, just lightly touching it will cause it to move around, but that IS what you are after, that means it will be very effective at stopping low frequency vibrations from getting through.

 

There ARE some modern passive "vibration isolation" systems on the market today (for things like electron microscopes and optical benches etc), these DO work but are pretty expensive and mostly just work in the horizontal plane. There are also active solutions as well, I have not tried these but ones designed for it could be quite effective at seismic noise, but they do have to be designed for very low frequency noise. There is also the problem that the active solutions have a specific range they work at, and ones that work well for seismic noise may not be very effective for higher frequency noise thus will require more traditional vibration isolation devices in addition to the active. The roller bearing and Euler springs will be effective over a very large spectrum.

 

I hope this answers some of the questions.

 

John S.

[MarkusBarkus]

@JohnSwensonthank you for responding to this semi-OT  thread topic. Cheers...

[Superdad]

See, I told you folks not to get John started on the subject of suspension! 

 

Well to distract you all, here are some pics of various advanced development boards John has built and been testing with for several new products in recent months.  

None of they boards may be what you think they are, so don't ask questions...

[barrows]

Just a quick aside, then back to your usual programming:

 

For ball bearing type isolation systems, the limitations of the actual hardness of the bearings, the Sphericity of the bearings, and the surface smoothness of the bearings, indicates to me that these systems would work better with ceramic balls (SiN).  Ceramic balls are harder, more spherical, and have a surface finish which is smoother than that which can be made in steel, even high grade carbide.  So, if one uses open cup bearing isolation, one might consider a ceramic ball upgrade.

[AfterDark.]

Hi! Barrows,

 

We have some very highy quality ceramic (SiN) which can be benefit for high sensitive devices. 

 

 

Thanks and have a nice weekend.

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[russellbobby]

Ok so I can see the benefits of the fiber, unfortunately not with the 60.00 that I threw away on this setup to try. 
So what’s is the most part of the equation? Converter? LPS? Fiber cable?, transceiver?

is the ADOT Kit the way to go ?

Thanks

Russ

[russellbobby]

7 hours ago, russellbobby said:

Ok so I can see the benefits of the fiber, unfortunately not with the 60.00 that I threw away on this setup to try. 
So what’s is the most part of the equation? Converter? LPS? Fiber cable?, transceiver?

is the ADOT Kit the way to go ?

Thanks

Russ

I ordered a IFI Power X.  Guess start with power. Sure an LPS is the way to go but looking to stay out of another expensive rabbit hole. :)

[audiobomber]

59 minutes ago, russellbobby said:

I ordered a IFI Power X.  Guess start with power. Sure an LPS is the way to go but looking to stay out of another expensive rabbit hole. :)

I'm using a TP-Link MC220L with single mode Finisar SFP's, into an EtherRegen. I consider this an interim solution. I'm not sure so far whether the ADOT is a clear improvement over a generic. Frankly it looks pretty generic, and no clock upgrade. I don't intend to do anything before the new EtherRegen comes out. 

 

I have four linear power boxes in my main system. Fortunately there's room them, but not for another. The desk that holds my network gear, OTOH, has no room underneath for another box. I did the same thing as you, I'm using the iPower X for my new FMC, which is a clear upgrade from the standard iPower SMPS. I've found that grounding is an improvement, as outlined by John Swenson in this post:

 

 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, audiobomber said:

I'm not sure so far whether the ADOT is a clear improvement over a generic. Frankly it looks pretty generic, and no clock upgrade.

 

100% generic, rebranding of some $20 FMC. See that oval can?  That's a $0.25 crystal, not even an actual oscillator XO. 

About the biggest money-grab fraud I seen in a long time.

(Pic is right from here so it can be seen that I am posting the $400 ADOT Fiber Kit: https://signals.uk.com/product/adot-mc-fibre-network-kit/)

[barrows]

50 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

100% generic, rebranding of some $20 FMC. See that oval can?  That's a $0.25 crystal, not even an actual oscillator XO. 

About the biggest money-grab fraud I seen in a long time.

(Pic is right from here so it can be seen that I am posting the $400 ADOT Fiber Kit: https://signals.uk.com/product/adot-mc-fibre-network-kit/)

OMG, what the heck...  BTW, there are much better options available, for a true, made for high end audio, FMC, for nearly the same cost,  Wow!

[Mike Rubin]

On 2/4/2023 at 3:35 PM, Superdad said:

100% generic, rebranding of some $20 FMC. See that oval can?  That's a $0.25 crystal, not even an actual oscillator XO. 

About the biggest money-grab fraud I seen in a long time.

(Pic is right from here so it can be seen that I am posting the $400 ADOT Fiber Kit: https://signals.uk.com/product/adot-mc-fibre-network-kit/)

Wow.  It's so rare to see advertisements depicting the innards of audio gear that it's especially weird to see someone go open kimono to expose how little "there" is there.

[Mops911]

On 2/3/2023 at 4:11 PM, JohnSwenson said:

There ARE some modern passive "vibration isolation" systems on the market today

 

http://barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm ??

 

[JohnSwenson]

2 hours ago, Mops911 said:

 

http://barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm ??

 

That's a nice right up on the situation. This whole concept is nothing new, I have been involved in it for over 25 years. For some reason it never gets major "traction" in the audiophile world in general.

 

I'm not a big fan of the inner tube as a vertical isolator, that is an example of a damped oscillator getting a low frequency from mechanical resistance. Yeah it's better than nothing, but not by a lot. I've been trying to find better solutions than that. Euler springs are WAY better, but harder to make work right.

 

For the horizontal there is another very simple, very inexpensive way to go: a pendulum, suspend you rack on strings from the ceiling. The resonant frequency of pendulum is quite low and makes a wonderful isolation device. I even tried using Slinky's to suspend a platform but by the time you get the weight suspended the vertical resonance is fairly high so it doesn't do much good.

 

John S.

 

 

[kennyb123]

8 hours ago, Mops911 said:

 

http://barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm ??

 

Stillpoint’s take on bearings:  https://patents.google.com/patent/US10801577B2/en?inventor=Paul+J.+Wakeen

[JohnSwenson]

10 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

Stillpoint’s take on bearings:  https://patents.google.com/patent/US10801577B2/en?inventor=Paul+J.+Wakeen

These are not effective for seismic noise. The bearings are ridding in a "dish" with very steep sides, and this produces a resonance way too high for being effective for seismic noise. This higher resonance can certainly be effective for significantly higher frequency vibrations, just not for seismic noise.

 

John S.

[kennyb123]

11 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

The bearings are ridding in a "dish" with very steep sides, and this produces a resonance way too high for being effective for seismic noise.

Thanks for mentioning that.

[russellbobby]

So I installed an iFi  i Power X on the 10Gtek Converter. Actually listenable right out of my cold Michigan mailbox. Anybody who questions the validity of a power supply on sonics can easily hear the difference compared to the throw in supplied with the converter. I can see anyone that listens with the stock supply would pull it right out of their system.

First time trying fiber and it is a nice perk of the EtherRegen saves on another converter and power supply.

So please tell me the optjc cables dont make a difference? I am a firm believer in cables, but no nothing about fiber.  I am using a FCD  cable. $ 14.00 on Amazon.  I don't mind spending a few bucks on a cable or even a different converter. Is it worth it to jump right to a Sonore ?  Why waste money getting there if its where you are going to end up anyways:)  

Thanks for the advice,

Russ

[audiobomber]

1 hour ago, russellbobby said:

So I installed an iFi  i Power X on the 10Gtek Converter. Actually listenable right out of my cold Michigan mailbox. Anybody who questions the validity of a power supply on sonics can easily hear the difference compared to the throw in supplied with the converter. I can see anyone that listens with the stock supply would pull it right out of their system.

First time trying fiber and it is a nice perk of the EtherRegen saves on another converter and power supply.

So please tell me the optjc cables dont make a difference? I am a firm believer in cables, but no nothing about fiber.  I am using a FCD  cable. $ 14.00 on Amazon.  I don't mind spending a few bucks on a cable or even a different converter. Is it worth it to jump right to a Sonore ?  Why waste money getting there if its where you are going to end up anyways:)  

Thanks for the advice,

Russ

My research said to go with single-mode Corning glass cable and Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFP. 

 

There are many recommendations for the Finisar FTLX1475D3BTL SFP+, as well as a Group Buy. I have all 1Gb gear and didn't want any compatibility issues, so went with the SFP, not 10Gb SFP+.

 

[AfterDark.]

2 hours ago, audiobomber said:

My research said to go with single-mode Corning glass cable and Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFP. 

 

There are many recommendations for the Finisar FTLX1475D3BTL SFP+, as well as a Group Buy. I have all 1Gb gear and didn't want any compatibility issues, so went with the SFP, not 10Gb SFP+.

 

 

Hi! Audiobomber,

 

We performs testing on this module for 1G speed, the single-mode Corning glass cable and Finisar FTLF1318P3BTL SFP is a fine choice too. We will arrange a group buy for this combo next week for audiophilestyle's members. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

 

[dbastin]

12 hours ago, russellbobby said:

So please tell me the optic cables dont make a difference? I am a firm believer in cables, but no nothing about fiber.

Well, it seems the fibre optic cable itself can make a difference, perhaps only small.

 

The SFP modules can make probably a bigger difference.

 

The devices (FMC/switch) specs matter too, SFP+/10GB can be quite an improvement.