The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[simon_pepper]

Ok,

I have had my EtherREGEN since Nov '99 feeding my Naim NDS/555DR Network player from Port 'B', with a wired 'downstream' feed into Ports 'A' . Also on Ports 'A' are connections to UltraRendu/UltraCap LPS for SonoreUPnP Bridge (also a USB output, but not used as USB->S/PDIF through XMOS U208 convertor into the Digitial input isn't as good as the UPnP input), a RPi2 running Assset UPnP server as a backup and an AppleTV (PQ was improved through wired connection into the EtherREGEN).

EtherREGEN is now powered by a Farad3 with Level2 silver wiring, Orange fuse, Farad mains cable, with a Ground wire to a Earth post on a Russ Andrews Mains distribution block.

 

So next steps - what's best at this point, in terms of cost/value/return?

1a. Move the wired input to Fibre, through a Media convertor using STP devices, moving the input into Port 'A' to be isolated electrically. I have a 5V LPS for the RPi2 that would also cover the Media convertors, so an additional PSU is not required.

I would look to use the Finisar SFP 1G Single Mode modules (FTLF1318P3BTL) with a length of Single Mode Fibre.

 

1b. Move the wired input to Fibre, as above, but using STP+ devices, but only at 1G rate. I would look to use the Finisar SFP+ Single Mode SFP Modules - are these worth the higher cost for the unused 10G capability?

 

2. External Clock for the EtherREGEN. This would just be feeding the EtherREGEN as there is no external Clock input on the NDS Network player.

a. The simplest option seems to be a LCY OCK-1 with built-in PSU and 75ohm output (as EtherREGEN is a standard 75ohm model), then experiment between Square wave and Sine wave outputs, either directly through the Mini-Circuits filter.
b. There is the more expensive LCY OCK-2 version with potentially better PSU and more outputs (which I don't need) and switchable output (which I don't need) but is the OCXO better to begin with?
c. Or an AfterDark Clock, however anything better than the 'Prince' level gets much more expensive. And Square Wave or Sine wave output? Plus an additional Power supply is required.

d. Or a CyberShaft Clock - however entry price Silver is expensive, and still requires a Power supply as well.

Not sure I want to embark on a DIY option using a BG7TBL board, as this seems to be hit/miss in terms of supply.

 

Or just leave alone, as it sounds great and stop looking to mess around 😃

[TRHH]

I would like to test if SFP+ and see if it would bring any improvement to my setup.

 

Currently using Cisco Meraki Go 8 Port Switch (GS110-8-HW-EU).

 

What could be the right SFP+ to use?

 

Thanks

[GoodEnough]

On 3/19/2023 at 2:29 PM, simon_pepper said:

Ok,

I have had my EtherREGEN since Nov '99 feeding my Naim NDS/555DR Network player from Port 'B', with a wired 'downstream' feed into Ports 'A' . Also on Ports 'A' are connections to UltraRendu/UltraCap LPS for SonoreUPnP Bridge (also a USB output, but not used as USB->S/PDIF through XMOS U208 convertor into the Digitial input isn't as good as the UPnP input), a RPi2 running Assset UPnP server as a backup and an AppleTV (PQ was improved through wired connection into the EtherREGEN).

EtherREGEN is now powered by a Farad3 with Level2 silver wiring, Orange fuse, Farad mains cable, with a Ground wire to a Earth post on a Russ Andrews Mains distribution block.

 

So next steps - what's best at this point, in terms of cost/value/return?

1a. Move the wired input to Fibre, through a Media convertor using STP devices, moving the input into Port 'A' to be isolated electrically. I have a 5V LPS for the RPi2 that would also cover the Media convertors, so an additional PSU is not required.

I would look to use the Finisar SFP 1G Single Mode modules (FTLF1318P3BTL) with a length of Single Mode Fibre.

 

1b. Move the wired input to Fibre, as above, but using STP+ devices, but only at 1G rate. I would look to use the Finisar SFP+ Single Mode SFP Modules - are these worth the higher cost for the unused 10G capability?

 

2. External Clock for the EtherREGEN. This would just be feeding the EtherREGEN as there is no external Clock input on the NDS Network player.

a. The simplest option seems to be a LCY OCK-1 with built-in PSU and 75ohm output (as EtherREGEN is a standard 75ohm model), then experiment between Square wave and Sine wave outputs, either directly through the Mini-Circuits filter.
b. There is the more expensive LCY OCK-2 version with potentially better PSU and more outputs (which I don't need) and switchable output (which I don't need) but is the OCXO better to begin with?
c. Or an AfterDark Clock, however anything better than the 'Prince' level gets much more expensive. And Square Wave or Sine wave output? Plus an additional Power supply is required.

d. Or a CyberShaft Clock - however entry price Silver is expensive, and still requires a Power supply as well.

Not sure I want to embark on a DIY option using a BG7TBL board, as this seems to be hit/miss in terms of supply.

 

Or just leave alone, as it sounds great and stop looking to mess around 😃

 

Did you hear benefit from the Farad?  If so, I think it's likely further embellishment of your EtherRegen ecosystem will pay dividends.

 

My experience was:

• Adding Plixir LPS => huge improvement
• Adding an SFP FMC => improvement.  I'm using single mode cable from a Startech FMC (not SFP+).    Of three Finisar SFPs I tried I preferred FTLX1471D3BTL (SFP+).  Others were: FTLF1318P3BTL, FTLF1324P2BTL. You can get good prices on eBay (no fakes as far as I could tell)
• Adding an AfterDark King sine clock =>  biggest improvement.  This is fed from an Oyaide cable.  If you want to test the water here, buy a BG7TBL from AliExpress, then you can make use of AD's trade-in to upgrade if desired.  I should add that both clocks will likely make the sound quite dull for the first 48 hours or so, and won't be at their best for a week. 

Sine/square?  The common consent seems to be that the very best option is a high-end square.  Though if you don't want to pay crazy money, then a mid-price sine is likely to be better.

[MartinT]

There has been much talk in this thread about SFP compatibility, but not much about sound quality.  Trust me, they really do sound different.  I now have a decent collection of SFPs, fibre cables and AOCs (all-in-one Active Optical Cables).  Some are multimode, some single-mode with a mixture of 850nm and 1310nm wavelength.  It does help that I work in IT and can collect obsolete network items before we throw them out.  A few make the SFP cage on the ER run very hot, others less so.  But it's the sound quality differences that are amazing to me when you consider what they are doing.

 

I've said it elsewhere but my all-time favourite cable between the ER (used in reverse) and Signature Rendu SE is the Cisco SFP-10G-AOC5M cable.  This has the least harshness with a wonderful soundstage, whipcrack dynamics, potent bass and lush (to quote AfterDark) midrange.  It is, for instance, far better sounding than the fairly identical spec. Finisar FCBG110SD1C05 cable.

 

Rather like tube rolling, it's worth experimenting as some of them are not too expensive to just buy and try.

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, MartinT said:

A few make the SFP cage on the ER run very hot, others less so. 

Hi Martin:

It would be helpful for us to know the model numbers of SFP transceivers that you find run particularly hot. (It’s not that they “make the cage run hot”—there is nothing there other than the LT3045 we dedicate to providing 3.3V to the cage, but I doubt that it’s the source of extra heat you feel from even a high current draw SFP module.) 

In doing testing for our desired inclusion of a ‘B’ side SFP cage on EtherREGEN Gen2, it would be helpful for us to identify any series of modules that are particularly current hungry. Most of the transceivers we have played with so far (admittedly not very many) don’t draw all that much.

Thanks,

—Alex C.

[MartinT]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

It would be helpful for us to know the model numbers of SFP transceivers that you find run particularly hot.

 

I can't remember exactly how each one compared, but I do remember that the HP JD094B-C SFP, rated at 1W, did make the cage corner of the ER run quite a bit hotter than the other SFPs.  Bear in mind that I do have a heatsink on my ER.

 

The HP, by the way, was the best sounding non-AOC SFP I tried in my collection.

[dbastin]

On 1/12/2024 at 2:57 AM, Superdad said:

Hi Martin:

It would be helpful for us to know the model numbers of SFP transceivers that you find run particularly hot. (It’s not that they “make the cage run hot”—there is nothing there other than the LT3045 we dedicate to providing 3.3V to the cage, but I doubt that it’s the source of extra heat you feel from even a high current draw SFP module.) 

In doing testing for our desired inclusion of a ‘B’ side SFP cage on EtherREGEN Gen2, it would be helpful for us to identify any series of modules that are particularly current hungry. Most of the transceivers we have played with so far (admittedly not very many) don’t draw all that much.

Thanks,

—Alex C.

In case you are aware, I have come across some discussion about Taiko preference to exclude the use of SFPs in its 'switch' because they generate too much noise according to their measurements (I am generalising with this language, not paraphrasing or quoting). As I recall they are using DAC rather than fibre.  I recall it was on WBF.

 

I will someday try some products which seem to gobble up noise right on SFP cage, such as Synergistic Research ECT or Carbon Discs, or Shakti, ByBee, Telos type things.  They may not be a solution but could simply make enough difference to suggest if noise from SFP is an issue.

 

While fibre has its advantages for SQ, it might be detrimental in some situations because the SFP modules might damage the benefit of 'treatments' the ethernet signal has gained upto that point.  For example, B Side surely provides benefit but a SFP might diminish that.

[JayDog]

On 1/11/2024 at 10:55 AM, MartinT said:

There has been much talk in this thread about SFP compatibility, but not much about sound quality.  Trust me, they really do sound different.  I now have a decent collection of SFPs, fibre cables and AOCs (all-in-one Active Optical Cables).  Some are multimode, some single-mode with a mixture of 850nm and 1310nm wavelength.  It does help that I work in IT and can collect obsolete network items before we throw them out.  A few make the SFP cage on the ER run very hot, others less so.  But it's the sound quality differences that are amazing to me when you consider what they are doing.

 

I've said it elsewhere but my all-time favourite cable between the ER (used in reverse) and Signature Rendu SE is the Cisco SFP-10G-AOC5M cable.  This has the least harshness with a wonderful soundstage, whipcrack dynamics, potent bass and lush (to quote AfterDark) midrange.  It is, for instance, far better sounding than the fairly identical spec. Finisar FCBG110SD1C05 cable.

 

Rather like tube rolling, it's worth experimenting as some of them are not too expensive to just buy and try.

I am completely new t0 the fiber connections.  Can the SFP-10G-AOC5M cable be used with SFP modules or does it have to be SFP+ modules? I have two of the FTFL1318P2BTL being delivered new week. They are going to be used from the router to the "A" side of the etherregen. The cable I ordered is the a single mode duplex fiber optic cable from Ultra Spec cables. Would the SFP-10G-AOC5M work ok the the above above Finisars?

[Mike Rubin]

2 minutes ago, JayDog said:

I am completely new t0 the fiber connections.  Can the SFP-10G-AOC5M cable be used with SFP modules or does it have to be SFP+ modules? I have two of the FTFL1318P2BTL being delivered new week. They are going to be used from the router to the "A" side of the etherregen. The cable I ordered is the a single mode duplex fiber optic cable from Ultra Spec cables. Would the SFP-10G-AOC5M work ok the the above above Finisars?

I have both the Cisco AOC's and Finisars in different parts of my system. 

 

The AOC's have the SFP built in at each end, so, no, they can't be used with other SFP's. 

 

 I am using them in SFP, not SFP+, applications, so that shouldn't be an issue for you. 

 

Single mode fiber cables will work fine with the Finisar SFP's. 

[MartinT]

3 hours ago, JayDog said:

I am completely new t0 the fiber connections.  Can the SFP-10G-AOC5M cable be used with SFP modules or does it have to be SFP+ modules?

 

The Cisco is an all-in-one cable and comes with SFPs as part of the cable. It makes for a very easy solution with superb sound quality and minimal faffing around. Quite inexpensive if you find used ones on eBay, too.

[dbastin]

6 hours ago, JayDog said:

They are going to be used from the router to the "A" side

What is your router that has SFP?

 

On 1/11/2024 at 11:55 PM, MartinT said:

my all-time favourite cable between the ER (used in reverse) and Signature Rendu SE is the Cisco SFP-10G-AOC5M

I am curious if you compared this with SFP+ modules or AOC  (I need to recap the consensus on the Optical Network Configurations thread).  I am considering a fibre link between ER and Mikrotik CRS 305 which is SFP+ and I gather compatibility with 10G and 1G at each end will be key.  But if that Cisco AOC sounds as good as SFP+ combinations it is probably a simpler solution.  Incidentally, speed is not important, my network is constrained to 100M and performs fine most of the time and I'm not sure the speed causes the issue that do occur.

 

On 1/11/2024 at 11:55 PM, MartinT said:

It does help that I work in IT and can collect obsolete network items before we throw them out.

That is a fortunate position to be in.  I'd be interested to try the best from your collection that you don't use.

[MartinT]

7 hours ago, dbastin said:

I am curious if you compared this with SFP+ modules or AOC  (I need to recap the consensus on the Optical Network Configurations thread).

 

The BlueOptics BO35J13610D is an SFP+ module, well lauded in networking circles.  The Cisco SFP-10G-AOC5M blows it away in sound quality, and I don't mean by a small margin.  Where the BO sounds cold, hard, analytical with a really harsh edge, the Cisco is 3D, lush, incredibly dynamic and with bass to die for.

[simon_pepper]

11 hours ago, MartinT said:

 

The BlueOptics BO35J13610D is an SFP+ module, well lauded in networking circles.  The Cisco SFP-10G-AOC5M blows it away in sound quality, and I don't mean by a small margin.  Where the BO sounds cold, hard, analytical with a really harsh edge, the Cisco is 3D, lush, incredibly dynamic and with bass to die for.

Thanks Martin,

I have a Farad3 with Level2 Silver cable on my EtherREGEN.

So, based on your experience is my next project, either an external clock or fibre optic input to next improve streaming performance?

 

I have been looking at OXCO several units on eBay, however I decide to hold off until I get get an AfterDark unit, with a known performance.

For the Fibre optic based input I need a Media convertor and then a Cisco AOC cable with the STP+ modules built-in.

 

My feeling is to the OXCO route, given the level of galvanic isolation already provided on the A ports of the EtherREGEN.

 

Thanks,

Simon

 

 

[MartinT]

3 minutes ago, simon_pepper said:

My feeling is to the OXCO route, given the level of galvanic isolation already provided on the A ports of the EtherREGEN.

 

 

I agree with that, the external Afterdark clock will give you more bang to start with.  Don't skimp on a good power supply for it.

[JayDog]

I ordred a few of the Cisco SFP-10G-AOC5M cables on eBay. I also ordered the TP-link MC220L to convert the output from my Spectrum wireless router (SAXV1V1S WiFi 6 Router) to fiber. Is there another basic and better option than the TP-link MC220L for converting the signal to fiber?

[simon_pepper]

24 minutes ago, MartinT said:

 

I agree with that, the external Afterdark clock will give you more bang to start with.  Don't skimp on a good power supply for it.

Thanks

 

There is a new AfterDark unit with a built-in LPS supply, that will be perfect.

Phase Noise specification depends on Price, so need to alllocate some budget, now I have finished the Headphone & Amp upgrade.

[JayDog]

I have the Mutec REF10 Nano coming in from Uptone Audio this week.  Not sure about a power supply yet, but will let you know how the Nano works out with the Etherregen.  Supposedly it takes a couple of weeks to settle in. I would like to pair it with the JS4 Uptone will be releasing. They  are supposed to be releasing it in the next few months.  IT  has 2 separate/isolated outputs with adjustable voltage. That way it can be used with the Mutec and then Etherregen without bridging the moat of the Etherregen.  

[Bravado13]

So not sure what I’m missing but if one has an ER and is using the recommended “B Side” to connect to your DAC or Streamer, what  SQ benefits does adding a SFP module/ FMC bring to the audio that some are referring to?
 

Are you bypassing or forgoing the use of the ER’s “B side” and going straight from the “A sides” SFP connection?

[dbastin]

7 hours ago, Bravado13 said:

So not sure what I’m missing but if one has an ER and is using the recommended “B Side” to connect to your DAC or Streamer, what  SQ benefits does adding a SFP module/ FMC bring to the audio that some are referring to?
 

Are you bypassing or forgoing the use of the ER’s “B side” and going straight from the “A sides” SFP connection?

In 'theory', according to Uptone, fibre shouldn't make any difference.  But in practice many find that theory doesn't hold true, I not going to speculate why except to say my experience is that every device enroute to the endpoint seems to be affected by 'something' which can have an audible impact.

[audiobomber]

On 1/14/2024 at 4:08 PM, JayDog said:

I ordred a few of the Cisco SFP-10G-AOC5M cables on eBay. I also ordered the TP-link MC220L to convert the output from my Spectrum wireless router (SAXV1V1S WiFi 6 Router) to fiber. Is there another basic and better option than the TP-link MC220L for converting the signal to fiber?

I own and use three FMC's. From worst sound quality to best, in my systems:

10GTek Gigabit (from Small Green Computer)

TP-Link MC220L

Sonore opticalModule Deluxe v2

 

All are improved considerably by upgrading the power supply. Currently I use the 10GTek with a medical grade SMPS that came with my Silent Angel N8 switch. I use an iPower X on the MC220L. These two are in my desktop system. I use the oMD with Pardo MiniTeddy linear power supply, in my higher quality main system.

 

10 hours ago, Bravado13 said:

So not sure what I’m missing but if one has an ER and is using the recommended “B Side” to connect to your DAC or Streamer, what  SQ benefits does adding a SFP module/ FMC bring to the audio that some are referring to?

I tried three different 50' ethernet cables from a Silent Angel N8 to the ER A-side; generic CAT6, Yauhody CAT8 and Audio Sensibility Supra Super. The AS Super cable is Supra CAT8 with Telegartner connectors, and cryogenically treated. The CAT8 cables were used with and without a LAN Isolator. When compared with my original fiber optic setup, MC220L/iPower X, Corning single-mode fiber and Finisar SFPs, all of the ethernet cables were shown to be coloured and lacking in microdetail. My current system, with the oMD/Pardo instead of the MC220/iPower, is far and away more resolving.

 

10 hours ago, Bravado13 said:

Are you bypassing or forgoing the use of the ER’s “B side” and going straight from the “A sides” SFP connection?

No, you connect the fiber cable to the ER A-side, with an ethernet cable from the B-side to your end point.

[dbastin]

Just thought I'd mention how fibre on Side A can be can extra benefit.

 

In my network the data from the internet comes via router > fibre > ER Side A - moat - Side B > server > back via same cable to Side B - moat - Side A > ... > endpoint.

 

So it benefits from the moat twice!

 

To me in my rig, the improvement doing this was big enough to be quite obvious pretty much immediately.

 

Nothing else is in Side A so the port I use can only receive/transmit electrical  'noise' originating from the ER and SFP module or the next device (which is a WAP powered by battery and the cable is Shynyata Sigma which I reckon filters noise travelling either direction.  I suppose Side A is not quite as good as Side B because things like Side A contains the switch chip and not as close to the clock synth, but perhaps passing over the moat a 2nd time is a surpasses that difference.

 

Prior to doing this the network was ...

Router > fibre > ER Side A - moat - Side B > server port 1 - server port 2 > ... endpoint.

 

The Server is Antipodes CX Oladra, it has 2 RJ45 ports.

 

Incidentally the ER sits on a Synergistic Reaearch Tranquility POD Carbon which is very worthwhile.  The pods sits on the Server so it is doing its thing to 2 devices which is quite econonic for what it does.

[dbastin]

1 hour ago, audiobomber said:

 

12 hours ago, Bravado13 said:

Are you bypassing or forgoing the use of the ER’s “B side” and going straight from the “A sides” SFP connection?

No, you connect the fiber cable to the ER A-side, with an ethernet cable from the B-side to your end point.

We should clarify, with SFP on Side A the data goes across the moat to Side B.  But it can be used as, Side A exclusvely.  Let's say your AV system is on port 1 and NAS full of videos is connected via SFP/fibre ... and in addition the connection to you router is on Port 2 (Side A) and passes Tidal data to Side B enroute to a streamer.

[audiobomber]

46 minutes ago, dbastin said:

We should clarify, with SFP on Side A the data goes across the moat to Side B. 

Yes. the ER acts as an FMC, along with all the other things it does.

 

47 minutes ago, dbastin said:

But it can be used as, Side A exclusively.  Let's say your AV system is on port 1 and NAS full of videos is connected via SFP/fibre ... and in addition the connection to you router is on Port 2 (Side A) and passes Tidal data to Side B enroute to a streamer.

Sure. but Side-B should be connected to your renderer/DAC. 

 

I have a switch upstream for my router, NAS and PC. The oMD is connected to the upstream switch via ethernet cable, and to the ER via fiber. The ER A-side feeds a TV and Chromecast audio streamer and cleans up the sound on both. 

[Bravado13]

Appreciate the replies.:. But with all these different configurations or variables, I’m semi confused.. ultimately it seems everyone is going with the “B port” to > (what would be in my case) the DAC/ renderer. How the SFP/ Fiber that would have to be connected to the” A side” benefit my DAC, I still don’t know, since it wouldn’t be connected via that “A” end unless I used a Ethernet cable from one of the A ports that would end up connected to the DAC. 

[dbastin]

24 minutes ago, Bravado13 said:

How the SFP/ Fiber that would have to be connected to the” A side” benefit my DAC, I still don’t know, since it wouldn’t be connected via that “A” end unless I used a Ethernet cable from one of the A ports that would end up connected to the DAC. 

Try not to get hung up on 'how' or 'why'.  The best way to prove it is just try it, like ...

 

switch/fmc > fibre > ER Side A - Side B > wire > endpoint (renderer, DAC)

 

To really compare like for like, get a switch with SFP to try both cables and fibre for yourself.  You might find different cables (UTP, STP, different manufacturers, etc) change the sound, different SFP modules do as well ... even though the data still goes over the moat to Side B.

 

I'm not sure if you have a server, if you do and it is very low noise, try in also in Side A, but if it is not then probably better connected to the switch.