Bits is bits?

[STC]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

The Chesky recording of "The Storm" even when down converted to Stereo can give a frighteningly real illusion of Height.

 

I have the Chesky binaural recording but I couldn’t find any track names “ The Storm”. Height is can be perceived due to suggestive knowledge for HF and especially if your tweeter are way above your ears. Technically, stereo do not have height information but often perceived to hear own especially sounds like bird tweeting or bee buzzing. 

 

QSound is OT. I think most of moats here too are OT and not a bit on bits. Better I stop here. 

[jabbr]

7 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

one?

Bit?

[Blackmorec]

52 minutes ago, STC said:

 

True stereo reproduction when the left and right signal arrives at the ears at the same time the speakers disappear, however in stereo reproduction there will be occasion where the signals are not identical where the phantom images can emerge anywhere between the speakers. During such events, the first arriving signal from the respective speaker will give the cue where the sound is coming from. However, since similar sound also emerges from the other speakers you will be localizing two sources but the eventual level difference would produce a firmer phantom image and we overlook the actual position of the speakers and exact localization can be inaccurate although the general direction will be correct. 

 

During audio shows, you will find speakers placed side by side for demo and often you cannot tell which of the two pairs are playing unless told. The fact, the pinna still locates the speakers was the reason why crosstalk cancellation do not work correctly in a typical 60 degrees setup because the pinna is extremely sensitive to sound coming from that direction. 

 

In a general sense, we may say the speakers disappear but if you focus hard enough and blind folded you can always tell whether the speakers are at 60 or 90 or 120 degrees angle. 

In nature, a point source sound reaches both ears at different times, obviously with a different phase and with a different amplitude. The brain checks the signals, sees they belong to the same source because of the time/amplitude/frequency relationship and it makes  conscious a sound emanating from that single location, with the location’s information relative to you.

In stereo, there are 2 signals reaching your ears. If they have the correct relationship in terms of time, amplitude and frequency, they are treated the same way, as having a single source and are made conscious as a single sound with location aligned with what the the 2 amplitudes and times would indicate.

In stereo, it matters not a jot whether the sounds are central or not. If the brain considers that the sounds are related enough to come from a single source, that is what it makes conscious. You no longer detect one or the other speaker, you detect what the combination of the 2 speaker outputs indicates, which is sound with a single source and a location. 

If your stereo system can’t pull off this trick and many many can’t, its down to the fact that the signals from each speaker are insuffiently related i,e too distorted to fool the brain. In this case the brain detects two discreet sources and makes conscious both signals with their locations.  All a stereo system has to do is make sufficient errors with amplitude, frequency and time/phase and the illusion disappears because the brain ‘hears’ 2 discreet signals rather than a single signal impinging on both ears. 

This process needs to be pretty foolproof and very automatic, as our very survival depends on it.  Imagine walking through a city without your directional hearing. You hear the bus but have no idea where its coming from so you waste valuable milliseconds moving your head to allow you to scan all directions visually....With both ears working, you hear the bus, register instantly where its coming from and turn your head to balance the 2 signals reaching your ears, at which point your eyes are pointing directly at the bus.  

[Blackmorec]

29 minutes ago, STC said:

 

I have the Chesky binaural recording but I couldn’t find any track names “ The Storm”. Height is can be perceived due to suggestive knowledge for HF and especially if your tweeter are way above your ears. Technically, stereo do not have height information but often perceived to hear own especially sounds like bird tweeting or bee buzzing. 

 

QSound is OT. I think most of moats here too are OT and not a bit on bits. Better I stop here. 

I can play you a track or two of electronic/acoustic music that features rising frequencies that start bottom left and trace a path across the soundstage to end above ceiling height right, then reverse. 

I can play you tracks where some sort of electronic jingling/shimmering bells cross the soundstage describing a large floor to ceiling wave pattern. These are essentially normal red book files streamed from Qobuz, so nothing particularly special, other than the sound engineering, which is SoTA. 

[STC]

And I can play a recording of bee buzzing recorded circling your head exactly at ear level but to be perceived to be circling above the head. As I said, we tend to localize HF to be coming from above.  Even cheap speakers can do that. Perceiving height information is different from having height information in stereo. As you said, that is only possible with bell and other sounds with HF contents. 

[Blackmorec]

15 minutes ago, STC said:

And I can play a recording of bee buzzing recorded circling your head exactly at ear level but to be perceived to be circling above the head. As I said, we tend to localize HF to be coming from above.  Even cheap speakers can do that. Perceiving height information is different from having height information in stereo. As you said, that is only possible with bell and other sounds with HF contents. 

Its one thing perceiving HF above your head as a function of expectation. Its something else entirely to hear sounds forming a continuous floor to ceiling wave pattern. How would that be imagined and flawlessly (s’cuse the pun) reproduced time after time?  

So again I’m afraid I disagree. Really well set up stereo systems can accurately portray height. Just don’t ask me how

And BTW, i’ve really enjoyed this discussion. Very thought provoking. 

[JanRSmit]

32 minutes ago, STC said:

And I can play a recording of bee buzzing recorded circling your head exactly at ear level but to be perceived to be circling above the head. As I said, we tend to localize HF to be coming from above.  Even cheap speakers can do that. Perceiving height information is different from having height information in stereo. As you said, that is only possible with bell and other sounds with HF contents. 

Basically our hearing system had little if any capability to hear in vertical direction. It is therefore indeed mostly perception. Imagine airplane sound from bellen of underground metro from above. 

[mansr]

1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

I can play you a track or two of electronic/acoustic music that features rising frequencies that start bottom left and trace a path across the soundstage to end above ceiling height right, then reverse. 

I can play you tracks where some sort of electronic jingling/shimmering bells cross the soundstage describing a large floor to ceiling wave pattern. These are essentially normal red book files streamed from Qobuz, so nothing particularly special, other than the sound engineering, which is SoTA. 

Care to mention which tracks, specifically?

[Blackmorec]

21 minutes ago, mansr said:

Care to mention which tracks, specifically?

Sure, as I come across them I’ll post a few album/tracks IDs that anyone can access on Qobuz with examples of various types of soundstage and recordings. 

BTW, if you want some perfectly lovely classical music, beautifully selected to meet a fairly broad range of tastes and generally extremely well performed, you can’t beat Radio Swiss Classic. 128kbps  (i’m not taking the piss here AT ALL btw, this a serious recommendation.) They play lovely music, spend minimal time talking with only music introductions  and the replay standard is well high enough to thoroughly enjoy, with lovely, if basic sound staging and enough intensity, colour and vibrancy to bring the music to life. And the announcement voices are a great tool to check the performance of your system .....things need to be be mostly right to get good  sound from 128kbps and the voices will immediately reveal when something isn’t, which is BTW an excellent tool for monitoring the quality of your network as any shortcomings will show up. 

 

I won’t forget the tracks. I have my notebook beside my listening chair.  I won’t just post ‘stunts and tricks’ I’ll post albums with outstanding and exciting sound stage content, where the presentation is an essential part of the music and let you guys decide who can hear what.   And try my recommendation of RSC...its a goodun

[mansr]

13 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Sure, as I come across them I’ll post a few album/tracks IDs that anyone can access on Qobuz with examples of various types of soundstage and recordings.

So those rather specific descriptions you have a while ago were not actually in reference to any particular tracks?

[Blackmorec]

Of course they were and when I come across them I’ll post them. You don’t think I’m going to trawl through albums looking for them I hope. I play the good stuff quite regularly so I doubt it’ll take that long but it’ll take as long as it takes. And your mail has something of a malodorous tone to it, so cut out that crap

[Blackmorec]

Ok....lets start with a classic......Mike Oldfield’s Tubular Bells 2003 ...I stream mine from Qobuz in CD resolution

 

Right from the get go this album should be lighting up your room and ‘Introduction’ will do just that. With massive vibrancy and great musical power it should sound hugely energetic and exciting. The soundstage is nicely balanced with excellent width and depth. Tonal colours are accurate and dense Not so much height ceiling wise but the soundstage is nicely layered with some instruments set higher than others. 

Play the whole album cos its all good, but I’ll highlight a few tracks

Next try Basses.  This track will show you how well your system weaves rhythms. 

Wild, exciting, exuberant, intense introduction...some lovely mid-bass power and rhythmic involvement of the highest order. There’s a purposeful lack of focus in the soundstage that creates a sort of cloud of sound, which then resolves into Chrystal clear and highly focussed guitar which servers beautifully to highlight your system’s treble abilities, transparency and ability to handle high high-frequency energy. There’re lovely gentle guitar notes with oodles of timbre, demonstrating your system’s ability to portray warmth

 

Thrash....The Strummed guitar is brilliant, lovely driving rhythm like a warm, stiff breeze. 

 

Russian...and more lovely acoustic guitar; full, warm, centre stage then we’re offffff

Listen to that soundstage.....full of atmosphere, the room full of deep rolling bass played low with other instruments layered above. Instruments introduce stage left then gradually take their place in the soundstage. The music energises the room 

 

Caveman lovely bit of fun....lovely solid beat and entertaining sound stage with various characters popping up everywhere.....then it gets serious....speed, dynamics, pace, rhythm, timing....if this does get you moving, book a medical. 

 

Ambient guitars possibly some of the nicest ambient music you’ll ever hear because there’s simply oodles of emotion and aural beauty...and beautiful use of the huge spaces offered by the sound stage. 

 

Finally Sailor’s Hornpipe 2003....nothing more to say!

 

So there you are. The above album contains tremendous soundstage width and depth  and demonstrates that height differentiation in a recording is a system/recording attribute  (not all systems will resolve height...its one of the last things to appear during system optimisation.  All in all a very nice album with a tremendous presentation that is key when listening to the music. I will however post a couple of albums that have considerably more height content, whenever I come across them. 

[Blackmorec]

OK, I had a hunch I remembered which album I was ‘quoting’ and I found it first try. 

Again Qobuz in standard resolution 

 

Shpongle - Tales of the Inexpressible 

So if you want a soundstage that fills your room, goes floor to ceiling and beyond and has electronic generated tones that do the floor-to-ceiling thing, here it is. This album is about music,  but a lot of the artistry lies in its presentation. Soundstages are massive, instruments and tones highly agile and there are sections of this album where the acoustics are so different and altered they’ll feel like they’re altering your consciousness.  A good percentage of this album happens at ceiling height. 

 

I have a suspicion that the ability to hear height Involves the pinna of the ear as much as the stereo system as it helps to rest your head against the chair’s headrest when listening, which has the effect of tipping your head back slightly, which really allows you to hear the height element perfectly. It isn’t however about tipping the head, as only part of the music happens at ceiling height...the rest is divided between floor and ceiling. All tipping your head back very slightly does is allow you to differentiate and therefore hear the height element much more clearly. 

 

 

[lucretius]

6 hours ago, jabbr said:

Bit?

 

With 2 bits and $4, you can get yourself a Pumpkin Spice Latte.

[alfe]

6 hours ago, jabbr said:

Bit?

In french bite.

 

[Ralf11]

mordre?

[jabbr]

36 minutes ago, alfe said:

In french bite.

 

In German please.

[alfe]

34 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

mordre?

 

No.☺️

 

[alfe]

4 minutes ago, jabbr said:

In German please.

 Bitte. 😀

[jabbr]

25 minutes ago, alfe said:

 Bitte. 😀

 

Bitte ist bitte!

[Ralf11]

if your USB cable allows noise infestation you will wind up having nibbles with quibbles

[fas42]

15 hours ago, STC said:

 

If such thing exists it can be repeated and demonstrated.  You couldn’t and do not know how except repeating something which other couldn’t replicate by relying on what you seemed to be hearing. 

 

Agreed. It has always been an issue for guaranteeing that in another situation that the system will work well enough for the full illusion to manifest - it has got easier over the years in some ways to replicate, because I've learnt things; there was a long period, for over a decade, where I just forgot about any sort of even slightly ambitious sound system ... the frustration of always being aware that the sound was well below standard, but not having the right 'tools' readily on hand to make it better, is not something I could put up with.

 

15 hours ago, STC said:

Zero information  you have provided so far. Your so called reference recordings were some pop music where there can be hardly any stereo information except for the pan potted ones. 

 

You seem to have an inability to absorb information ... the pop recordings make it trivially easy to assess the competence of a rig; the fact that they sound like an AM radio to you makes it abundantly clear where your system stands ... .

 

15 hours ago, STC said:

 

Blindfold a child and ask them to localize where the sound is coming from in your supposedly speakers disappearing performs and they would not have any difficulties in localizing them. I wonder if years of being too engrossed in this hobby, one starts to hear and imagine non existent soundscape.  

 

No matter how hard you try to convince, a speaker is a source of a sound and if you couldn’t localize that than you have some problem with your hearing/brain. 

 

Which is exactly my point. I would suggest that for a high proportion of children that they would have the same 'difficulty' as myself; there will be some whose brains work differently, and they will never be aware of any sort of illusion - they will also not perceive the classic audiophile sweet spot sound field, I would suggest.

 

You keep ignoring, deliberately, the fact that I only took audio really seriously for a very short period, for less than a year after the digital era started, and then this soundscape emerged out of nothing - I can still remember, quite vividly, right now, how I reacted and what I did to 'test' what was going on ...

[sandyk]

10 hours ago, STC said:

 

I have the Chesky binaural recording but I couldn’t find any track names “ The Storm”. Height is can be perceived due to suggestive knowledge for HF and especially if your tweeter are way above your ears. Technically, stereo do not have height information but often perceived to hear own especially sounds like bird tweeting or bee buzzing. 

 

QSound is OT. I think most of moats here too are OT and not a bit on bits. Better I stop here. 

"The Storm" is track 6 in the album that I posted a photo of.

Even esldude will concede that it is possible to give height information with appropriate microphone replacement.

A group of us heard the height in this track via a pair of big Nelson Pass 100W Class A monoblocks. 

 A nearby lightning strike in the recording made us jump a little involuntarily.

 You can even notice the height of the rolling thunder as it moves across the sky via a good headphone amplifier set up.

 I had this track near the end of a compilation CD and momentarily dozed off while listening on the bed with headphones on.

I woke up looking through the window for the storm to realise it was bright blue sky outside.

 

 Perhaps your gear isn't as good as you believe it is ? 

 

We have been off topic for well more than a page already.

[fas42]

12 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

In stereo, there isn’t a single source of sound, there are 2, so the sound you hear would be a function of source position 1(S1), source position 2 (S2), your position vs S1, your position vs S2 and your head and pinna shape.  In stereo, the sounds are balanced by the recording engineer such that when you are sitting exactly midway between the 2 sources, the 2 sources balance out to equal the same amplitudes as those coming from a single source in its desired position. In any other position, the stereo sounds will lose their relationship and sound different.  

 

Which how conventional stereo works, yes. But what I'm talking about goes beyond that ... the current rig, which STC loves to malign because it uses cheap Sharp speakers, has never gone beyond a very high standard of conventional stereo - it produces excellent depth, and can throw up a huge soundstage; say, can do Led Zeppelin with ease. What it hasn't achieved, so far, is the complete audible nulling of the speakers; I can still locate the drivers when I move close to them - and the reason for that is that I have still not eliminated all the audible distortions that matter; this takes time, and I'm not motivated at the moment to do this.

[sandyk]

4 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

OK, I had a hunch I remembered which album I was ‘quoting’ and I found it first try. 

Again Qobuz in standard resolution 

 

Shpongle - Tales of the Inexpressible 

So if you want a soundstage that fills your room, goes floor to ceiling and beyond and has electronic generated tones that do the floor-to-ceiling thing, here it is. This album is about music,  but a lot of the artistry lies in its presentation. Soundstages are massive, instruments and tones highly agile and there are sections of this album where the acoustics are so different and altered they’ll feel like they’re altering your consciousness.  A good percentage of this album happens at ceiling height. 

 

I have a suspicion that the ability to hear height Involves the pinna of the ear as much as the stereo system as it helps to rest your head against the chair’s headrest when listening, which has the effect of tipping your head back slightly, which really allows you to hear the height element perfectly. It isn’t however about tipping the head, as only part of the music happens at ceiling height...the rest is divided between floor and ceiling. All tipping your head back very slightly does is allow you to differentiate and therefore hear the height element much more clearly. 

 

 

The track 01 Ascent, Zarathustra on this album can fill the whole listening area with sound too.