Indydan Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 I found this article through Darko. The author makes a case that it isn't a case of Bits are bits. I wonder what others think? https://www.upscaleaudio.com/pages/bits-is-bits?fbclid=IwAR20r8A_bUYGlDjzsbFfEKzNAB06vDsYOgTf_TUf7xXwpps6-kdggIay4bU Teresa 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Samuel T Cogley Posted August 6, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 6, 2019 Having just read that, the message I hear coming through is "keep spending money on digital enhancements like boutique cables". When they're quoting Audioquest, you know it's going to be a "keep buying" mantra. lucretius, tmtomh, Hugo9000 and 3 others 6 Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted August 6, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 6, 2019 Agreed - it is a melange of Qualitative & Quantitative Errors, with some real info misted on top. And, the word "Darko" in an article is like a warning sign on a highway... But if you have any specific questions, fire away Speedskater, serendipitydawg and lucretius 2 1 Link to comment
crenca Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 21 minutes ago, Indydan said: I found this article through Darko. The author makes a case that it isn't a case of Bits are bits. I wonder what others think? https://www.upscaleaudio.com/pages/bits-is-bits?fbclid=IwAR20r8A_bUYGlDjzsbFfEKzNAB06vDsYOgTf_TUf7xXwpps6-kdggIay4bU A good example of the Audiophile Confidence Game. Take certain truths (e.g., the clocked nature of DAC playback, or RFI being a fundamental of the design of cables or anything electrical) and come to the conclusion that hyper expensive boutique "audio" USB cables offer a solution to a problem that you probably have... Speedskater 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted August 6, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 6, 2019 "Random science/engineering fact, therefore totally unrelated claim." lucretius, tmtomh and crenca 3 Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted August 6, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 6, 2019 Can we just say Darko is effectively full of it. Followed by he apparently is a shill for AQ. Then leave it at that. Or does the OP want explanations for why each of the points in the article are FUD, and while sort of true, the information presented is so misleading as to be borderline lying? crenca, semente and lucretius 3 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post Samuel T Cogley Posted August 6, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 6, 2019 Darko can't be an "influencer" without some allegiance to the manufacturers. While I'll admit that some internet culture passes me by, I'm pretty sure an "influencer" is just someone who gets page views and free stuff from the companies they help. crenca and lucretius 2 Link to comment
esldude Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: Darko can't be an "influencer" without some allegiance to the manufacturers. While I'll admit that some internet culture passes me by, I'm pretty sure an "influencer" is just someone who gets page views and free stuff from the companies they help. I'm surprised by the people with blogs who are so proud to be "influencers". Hey they have influence. And thru freebies and other methods that influence has value. And most of them probably pedal the influence they "created". After all who influences the influencers? And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
mansr Posted August 6, 2019 Share Posted August 6, 2019 18 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said: Darko can't be an "influencer" without some allegiance to the manufacturers. While I'll admit that some internet culture passes me by, I'm pretty sure an "influencer" is just someone who gets page views and free stuff from the companies they help. And then there's this guy: Link to comment
Popular Post sandyk Posted August 6, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 6, 2019 5 hours ago, Indydan said: I found this article through Darko. The author makes a case that it isn't a case of Bits are bits. I wonder what others think? https://www.upscaleaudio.com/pages/bits-is-bits?fbclid=IwAR20r8A_bUYGlDjzsbFfEKzNAB06vDsYOgTf_TUf7xXwpps6-kdggIay4bU Indydan You are wasting your time asking this question here, as the usual suspects, who are even unable to hear the obvious differences between USB cables, ( and that includes Ralf11) unlike the huge number of members who love their Lush cables etc. will act as a group to shout down any opinions to the contrary. You will find a large number of members who do agree with at least some of the points in that article post mainly in threads such as Rajiv's massive thread in the MUSIC SERVERS section. Alex marce, Teresa, AnotherSpin and 3 others 3 3 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted August 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 7, 2019 You are wasting your time asking this question here, as engineers and scientists will point out the errors in the ravings of parasites and Luddites. You can get different answers if you ask people who don't understand anything. lucretius, plissken, crenca and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment
sandyk Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Indydan The above post is exactly what I am referring to. Replies like the above calling those who disagree with them as raving Parasites and Luddites are typical of the thread destroying tactics used by several members from this group. Teresa 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 Luddite is a bit of a compliment sorry if it bytes lucretius 1 Link to comment
Popular Post tmtomh Posted August 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 7, 2019 For those who care, here is the crucial passage from the linked article where the author switches from "They Say" to "I Say" - in other words, when the author finishes summarizing the point of view they are going to disagree with, and when they begin to lay out their own response (counter-argument) to that point of view: "It's important to understand that there are no “digital signals”; there are analog signals that carry digital information. High-bandwidth digital signals are not 'pulses and no-pulses' marching down a wire like a line of ants—they are complex, high-frequency analog waves, and digital processors must recognize and decode many different voltages (16 or more for Ethernet) to turn the transmitted data into information. Because "digital signals" are high-frequency analog signals, cable design matters. This is why there are different Cat levels of Ethernet cable, and why cheap USB cables often don’t work with high-speed devices. Shielding a cable can damp energy peaks in the signal or cause non-linear distortions, and so designing a digital cable is most certainly not an “on or off” engineering task." If we're going to have an intelligent discussion about the actual content of this argument (and we certainly don't have to have an intelligent discussion!), then it would make sense to respond to specific claims the author makes in this passage. A few that jump out at me immediately include: The passage implies - and the argument is based on the claim - that properly decoding "complex, high-frequency analogue waves" is a hit-or-miss challenge for modern digital and networking hardware and cables. The passage specifically implies that distinguishing between 16 different voltages is difficult or challenging for "ethernet" to do. The passage conflates cables, the hardware the cables are connected to, and the software running on that hardware into a single thing - in this case "ethernet." The passage equates different CAT levels of ethernet cable to the accuracy of decoding the aforementioned voltages; and it claims that cheap USB cables do not work with high-speed devices - and further strongly implies that devices that transmit digital audio are high-speed devices ("high-bandwidth digital signals" transmitted as "complex, high-frequency analogue waves." The passage claims that cable shielding can cause analogue-like distortions when a digital audio signal transmitted over that cable gets translated into an analogue audio signal ("shielding a cable can damp energy peaks... or cause non-linear distortions"). I don't think one needs to talk about shills or make ad hominem attacks. Instead, I think one need only point to the above points and many more, and ask anyone who wishes to defend this article and argument to explain and support these claims. In fact, I would say that by calling Darko a shill and resorting to name-calling, folks give defenders of this poor argument a great way to deflect from the actual content of the argument - they can instead sidestep the argument itself and post the kind of response Alex has posted above, pointing out and decrying the nastiness of a "small vocal minority" of naysayers. Jeff_N, MetalNuts, PleasantSounds and 5 others 6 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted August 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 7, 2019 I take your point Tom, but motivation is important. crenca and lucretius 2 Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted August 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: I take your point Tom, but motivation is important. Is there any doubt that the motivation is to sell stuff, facts be damned? lucretius, esldude, crenca and 1 other 2 1 1 Link to comment
fas42 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 What I see, is that on one side people who are well aware that subtle variations in the makeup of a system can cause audible differences are nearly always sloppy in their thinking, and reasoning; and that on the other that those who enjoy being precise in their understanding fail to, or don't wish to, extend their thinking beyond what are the everyday 'rules' for deciding whether something makes sense or not. Teresa 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, mansr said: Is there any doubt that the motivation is to sell stuff, facts be damned? No Doubt. Tragic Kingdom... Link to comment
Popular Post sandyk Posted August 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, tmtomh said: . In fact, I would say that by calling Darko a shill and resorting to name-calling, folks give defenders of this poor argument a great way to deflect from the actual content of the argument - they can instead sidestep the argument itself and post the kind of response Alex has posted above, pointing out and decrying the nastiness of a "small vocal minority" of naysayers. I am NOT sidestepping the argument, neither am I agreeing with all the contents of the quoted article. I am simply saying that it is no longer possible to have a rational discussion in this forum without members such as Ralf11 and several others deliberately attacking the poster and using insulting phrases. This amounts to a bullying and disruptive tactic that leads to others with different views not even joining in the discussion. This kind of behaviour is even more prevalent in the MQA thread, where I have already made it perfectly clear that I also hear degradation caused by MQA processing. In other words it becomes Censorship of those with differing points of view. Teresa, daverich4, MetalNuts and 1 other 3 1 How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted August 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 7, 2019 I did not attack the OP. Why don't you pick out one specific paragraph in the article cited and show us why it is true and not deceptive. I cannot find anything that is not deceptive, but I am certain that you, with your superior understanding, can enlighten us all. Or are you going to Censor yourself? lucretius, daverich4, tmtomh and 4 others 2 1 2 2 Link to comment
crenca Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 36 minutes ago, tmtomh said: The passage implies - and the argument is based on the claim - that properly decoding "complex, high-frequency analogue waves" is a hit-or-miss challenge.... Right there - no reason to go any further. That's all you get with the "average" Audiophile - about 25 words, many of which take some basic understanding of electromagnetism , electrical circuits, digital and data communications...yep you have lost them. Present the facts all you want, Darko and these sorts of manufacturers are intentionally operating on another level entirely - it's not about the facts, it's about using and abusing facts for a particular outcome. 43 minutes ago, tmtomh said: they can instead sidestep the argument itself and post the kind of response Alex has posted above, pointing out and decrying the nastiness of a "small vocal minority" of naysayers. Address the facts for 100, 1000, 10,000 words and Alex and all the audiophiles like him will post the same thing each and every time, because they never get past the first 25 words and their lack of grounding in the basics of digital communications. Teresa 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 now, now - for all the Dravings, he understands analog quite well Link to comment
sandyk Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 4 hours ago, esldude said: I'm surprised by the people with blogs who are so proud to be "influencers". How many here bother to read the Blogs in this forum ? How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
Kal Rubinson Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 18 minutes ago, sandyk said: How many here bother to read the Blogs in this forum ? There are blogs? 🙄 Just looked. Some interesting stuff. lucretius 1 Kal Rubinson Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile Link to comment
esldude Posted August 7, 2019 Share Posted August 7, 2019 1 hour ago, sandyk said: How many here bother to read the Blogs in this forum ? I take spells reading them from time to time. Mostly don't. Some interesting. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
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