Hqplayer: best NAA with best sound quality

[robi20064]

2 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

Sure...it's called marketing.

 

I ran a test here streaming Redbook CD content to NAA on my personal Rendu. It has all the protocols installed, but no server apps installed. Using Top in the general information section it says 1 task is running and the reset are sleeping with CPU usage in the single digits. It shows 6-8 tasks using CPU with one of them being Top that normally does not run on the unit. A few of the tasks use .3% CPU each. NAA and the web server use CPU percentages in the medium to low single digits. The NAA is set to run in real time with maximum priority. The web server runs with normal priority. None of this is even scratching the surface of pushing the system in a way worth worrying about.   

 

Marketing...sure. That's why the Roon only mode is kind of hidden in the firmware update notes of Lumin and not printed with big red letters on their opening web page.

 

After all these years in developing rendus one would expect you to understand at least the desire behind people's willingness to tweak these streamers to their max. Even if you gain a few % in CPU load, that might result in a lower noise-floor and for some it might be better SQ at the end. On the other hand, there must be a reason for DSD 1024 and PCM 1536 not working with the NAA image. I'm not saying it MUST be the hardware tweak you do with SO, but the chance is rather high. 

[robi20064]

2 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

The app we use does nothing until the end user wants to install and uninstall something. Your comment about bloat is nothing more than an exaggeration and it's sad customers latch on to these ideas. 

 

This is the industry we are in and if enough people want it then it may be worth doing it.   

 

Seriously, what is the % of your customers going for a secondary sdcard with the NAA image? I would be really surprised if it was even out of the 1-3% range. You don't need to make it sound like a couple of comments on this forum would build any real concern for your customer support. Not like the NAA image would kill the device or make any damage to it.

[vortecjr]

6 minutes ago, robi20064 said:

After all these years in developing rendus one would expect you to understand at least the desire behind people's willingness to tweak these streamers to their max. Even if you gain a few % in CPU load, that might result in a lower noise-floor and for some it might be better SQ at the end. On the other hand, there must be a reason for DSD 1024 and PCM 1536 not working with the NAA image. I'm not saying it MUST be the hardware tweak you do with SO, but the chance is rather high. 

After all these years in developing rendus what I have learned is that people don't like to hear the truth.   

[robi20064]

2 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

After all these years in developing rendus what I have learned is that people don't like to hear the truth.   

 

Which truth, yours or theirs? :)

 

Let's say you don't believe in SQ differences rooting back to lower CPU load or anything similar. Than why would it even bother you if the NAA image contained the same tweak like SO?

[vortecjr]

1 minute ago, robi20064 said:

 

Which truth, yours or theirs? :)

 

Let's say you don't believe in SQ differences rooting back to lower CPU load or anything similar. Than why would it even bother you if the NAA image contained the same tweak like SO?

Believe what you want. 

 

This post is falsely pushing that agenda because I never said it bothered me.   

[robi20064]

3 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

Believe what you want. 

 

This post is falsely pushing that agenda because I never said it bothered me.   

 

Sorry, let me rephrase, it never bothered you, you just would not like to share the information. Is this finally factual enough?

[The Computer Audiophile]

I don’t think anyone is getting anywhere with the direction this conversation is headed. Let’s move on. 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, robi20064 said:

Based on the comments and people's experience above, there is some specific setting what SonicOrbiter is configuring for the ultrarendu which makes PCM 1536 / DSD 1024 playback stable while the same is currently not possible with Miska's cubox-i based NAA image. Alex obviously knows what it is, but at this point it is not public knowledge.

 

To be clear:

I never suggested that the SonicOrbiter boot code tweak for the ultra/opticalRendus had anything to do with making PCM1536/DSD1024 stable.

I said it was something they do to materially take advantage of a particular premium part that is on the baseboard PCB of those models. 

It just happed that John Swenson was at my house with a Rendu years ago when he (or Andrew at SGC) first put the code into the boot routine and we made an eye-opening comparison--with just DSD64 or PCM192 as I recall. 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, robi20064 said:

Sorry, let me rephrase, it never bothered you, you just would not like to share the information.

I should not speak for Jesus, but that is probably it.  

 

I would ask that folks try to look at it from Sonore's perspective:

a) Offering a streamer with an operating system with applications supporting a broad range of server/player/controller configurations is already a complex task.

 

b) Supporting a large base of users--even with the stock customized Orbiter OS takes a lot of time and effort--most of their clients are far from expert with these devices and the software involve--and a lot can go wrong in a system.

 

c) Providing technical supporting to users who install some alternate operating system is really out of the question. As Sonore have said, you can do it but then you are on your own.

 

d) In their post--in their own sponsored forum--in which they kindly detail which models even have a chance of running an alternate OS (the opticalRendu is excluded) and also give a lot of technical details about such, they happen to mention that use of an alternate OS will then not take advantage of a key performance feature. It is one that they worked hard on and is a key differentiator to their streamer. That they choose to keep the information about it private is a valid choice in this competitive market (and Sonore/SGC has been ripped off in the past, but that's another story I swore not to speak about).

 

My sincere apologies to @vortecjr and the group if I have stirred up the pot.

If you look you will see that I only posted at all in this thread this week to point out to @Mike Rubin that his opticalRendu will definitely not run from Jussi's cubox-i-microRendu image for iMX-6.

 

--Alex C.

[Barnabas]

@Superdad Well said :)

[vortecjr]

49 minutes ago, Superdad said:

I should not speak for Jesus, but that is probably it.  

 

I would ask that folks try to look at it from Sonore's perspective:

a) Offering a streamer with an operating system with applications supporting a broad range of server/player/controller configurations is already a complex task.

 

b) Supporting a large base of users--even with the stock customized Orbiter OS takes a lot of time and effort--most of their clients are far from expert with these devices and the software involve--and a lot can go wrong in a system.

 

c) Providing technical supporting to users who install some alternate operating system is really out of the question. As Sonore have said, you can do it but then you are on your own.

 

d) In their post--in their own sponsored forum--in which they kindly detail which models even have a chance of running an alternate OS (the opticalRendu is excluded) and also give a lot of technical details about such, they happen to mention that use of an alternate OS will then not take advantage of a key performance feature. It is one that they worked hard on and is a key differentiator to their streamer. That they choose to keep the information about it private is a valid choice in this competitive market (and Sonore/SGC has been ripped off in the past, but that's another story I swore not to speak about).

 

My sincere apologies to @vortecjr and the group if I have stirred up the pot.

If you look you will see that I only posted at all in this thread this week to point out to @Mike Rubin that his opticalRendu will definitely not run from Jussi's cubox-i-microRendu image for iMX-6.

 

--Alex C.

Alex, there is no need for you to apologize…you have not done anything wrong. 

[Superdad]

21 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

Alex, there is no need for you to apologize…you have not done anything wrong. 

Tell that to my wife please!  (I accidentally put a wool sweater of hers in the dryer, so all I get this afternoon are scowling looks...)

[Miska]

3 hours ago, vortecjr said:

The app we use does nothing until the end user wants to install and uninstall something. Your comment about bloat is nothing more than an exaggeration and it's sad customers latch on to these ideas. 

 

NAA OS has essentially three components, Linux kernel, systemd and networkaudiod. All built from sources into one custom monolithic piece. No package manager and no web interface.

 

You do your things the way you see fit and do mine as I see fit.

 

If some hardware environment becomes hostile as platform, I just move over to another one.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

If you look you will see that I only posted at all in this thread this week to point out to @Mike Rubin that his opticalRendu will definitely not run from Jussi's cubox-i-microRendu image for iMX-6.

 

That's a shame. Would have been nice to keep that as a supported platform.

 

[Mops911]

7 hours ago, vortecjr said:

that people don't like to hear the truth.   

 

but that includes you too...

 

its about being the best, and there can be only one: SO or NAA

 

(and in audio, as we all know, there is no "the best". But you bet, THE WORLDS BEST SYSTEM WILL BE INSTALLED IN SUMMER IN MY HOME and it includes NAA....no sure why?)

[stefano_mbp]

9 hours ago, robi20064 said:

That's why the Roon only mode is kind of hidden in the firmware update notes of Lumin and not printed with big red letters on their opening web page

Maybe because it is still experimental

https://www.audioshark.org/lumin-169/lumin-roon-only-mode-21084.html

.

This discussion seems quite fool … if you like to tinker just get a UP-Board or a Fitlet2/3 or a RPi4 or a Raspberry CM4 or what else you have on hands and enjoy.

 

[stefano_mbp]

9 hours ago, robi20064 said:

That's why the Roon only mode is kind of hidden in the firmware update notes of Lumin and not printed with big red letters on their opening web page.

… and according to the release notes it is still experimental

[robi20064]

4 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

… and according to the release notes it is still experimental

It has been in experimental mode for alnost a year. Don't think it will be ever on top of their page regardless of being experimental or not. My comment was just an objection to Jesus' statement about these companies doing it for marketing (only).

[robi20064]

5 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

Maybe because it is still experimental

https://www.audioshark.org/lumin-169/lumin-roon-only-mode-21084.html

.

This discussion seems quite fool … if you like to tinker just get a UP-Board or a Fitlet2/3 or a RPi4 or a Raspberry CM4 or what else you have on hands and enjoy.

 

You are missing the point, Up-board, fitlet and common RPI hardware was never optimised for audio use, while Sonore products are. They provide a good base, but some would still like to explore extreme possibilities with the software side as well. 

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, Mops911 said:

 

but that includes you too...

 

its about being the best, and there can be only one: SO or NAA

 

(and in audio, as we all know, there is no "the best". But you bet, THE WORLDS BEST SYSTEM WILL BE INSTALLED IN SUMMER IN MY HOME and it includes NAA....no sure why?)

No...I like the hear the truth. 

 

It's not a competition for me. The thread I started on my Forum is a landing page for my customers that ask questions about the sort of thing. I posted the facts for the customer to be informed and make decisions based on that. It was just information and no one was told what they can or can't do.    

[vortecjr]

23 minutes ago, robi20064 said:

It has been in experimental mode for alnost a year. Don't think it will be ever on top of their page regardless of being experimental or not. My comment was just an objection to Jesus' statement about these companies doing it for marketing (only).

This so called exclusive mode is for practical purposes what we have been doing for many years. It's really needed for Windows and OS X where the operating system might want to chime in while playing content locally. On the Rendu we give one output protocol access to the ALSA output at a time and nothing from the operating system will interrupt to chime. This mode of operation applies to all protocols on the Rendu and not just Roon.    

 

Here is information on the feature from Roon

https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/exclusive-mode

[Miska]

39 minutes ago, robi20064 said:

You are missing the point, Up-board, fitlet and common RPI hardware was never optimised for audio use, while Sonore products are. They provide a good base, but some would still like to explore extreme possibilities with the software side as well. 

 

Holo Red is pretty nice audio optimized hardware. And officially supports third party OS images such as mine.

 

[Rovo]

13 hours ago, Superdad said:

Tell that to my wife please!  (I accidentally put a wool sweater of hers in the dryer, so all I get this afternoon are scowling looks...)

the first question I ask my girl friend is "what have I done now wrong?" 😉

[Jud]

4 hours ago, robi20064 said:

You are missing the point, Up-board, fitlet and common RPI hardware was never optimised for audio use, while Sonore products are. They provide a good base, but some would still like to explore extreme possibilities with the software side as well. 

I suppose the question then is whether audio manufacturers trying to make a living (and still not quite over constraints from fractured supply chains) should be obliged to accommodate your wish to explore these extreme possibilities.

 

 I would also not so quickly dismiss the suggestions about other boards. The Fitlets with optical Ethernet input look particularly interesting to me.

[robi20064]

5 hours ago, vortecjr said:

This so called exclusive mode is for practical purposes what we have been doing for many years. It's really needed for Windows and OS X where the operating system might want to chime in while playing content locally. On the Rendu we give one output protocol access to the ALSA output at a time and nothing from the operating system will interrupt to chime. This mode of operation applies to all protocols on the Rendu and not just Roon.    

 

Here is information on the feature from Roon

https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/exclusive-mode

 

I was using an ultrarendu for years, know how is it done with protocol selection. Now you say it is for practical purposes, so it is for marketing only when done by iFi or Lumin? Also they do disable their control interface as well (WebUI, UPnP) to even further reduce load.