How much difference does it make?

[PeterSt]

3 hours ago, STC said:

Linn discovered that by making better TT, it improved the sound. He discovered it by placing his TT in another room which improved the sound. His reasoning was and correctly too for mechanical device like a TT that the sound from the loudspeakers causes degradation in the playback. 

 

The same would be so for the DAC (these days / still). It is about as mechanical, but the relative forces and what is influenced are different (think infinitely more low jitter opposed to the TT's wow).

[STC]

5 hours ago, semente said:

 

He (Tiefenbrun) tried but could never make good speakers? 😶

 

I am no fan of Linn and I haven’t heard one of their speakers all my life. Maybe I am prejudiced because I migrated to cartridge tape after vinyl before settling for digital. 

[STC]

3 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

The same would be so for the DAC (these days / still). It is about as mechanical, but the relative forces and what is influenced are different (think infinitely more low jitter opposed to the TT's wow).

 

True true true. But if difference is obvious then how come there is no one best DAC?  

[Confused]

On 6/22/2019 at 11:32 AM, PeterSt said:

As usual my controversial answer:

 

Room maybe 10% (in the end irrelevant if it is not too bad to begin with - avoid swimming pools and the like).

 

 

 

Thanks!  You have just saved me what would have been a hugely expensive mistake with the planned swimming pool upgrade of my listening room....🙂  Even just anchoring the listening chair and waterproofing the remote were proving problematic anyway.  (I guess some folk have tried putting decent systems in indoor swimming pool rooms?)

[jabbr]

On 6/22/2019 at 5:18 AM, marce said:

Speakers/Room biggest effect.

Cables should have no discernible affect on an analogue signal or digital signal transmission.

I have perceived some difference in sources when I had CD players and with DAC's, but never blind tested so I can't exclude bias. With digital sources feeding the same DAC I have never noticed any difference.

 

Cables shouldn’t matter but they sometimes do. I wonder if the shielding around USB cables act as waveguides for transmitted EMI. Shielding also seems to be a problem Ethernet but for >= 10g, foil around each twisted pair reduces crosstalk. Suggest that twisting isn’t perfect 😉

[rando]

3 hours ago, Confused said:

(I guess some folk have tried putting decent systems in indoor swimming pool rooms?)

 

Lap pools, comically.  Resorts have tried this (flowing out of the wetbar) as well I believe.  Suffice to say, loud noises underwater and human orifices are not a great combination. 

 

Off to the ultrasonic debate with fresh ammo...  

[sphinxsix]

1 hour ago, rando said:

 

 Suffice to say, loud noises underwater and human orifices are not a great combination. 

 

Not everyone would agree, I think :

There were no devices like that in the times of my swimming career and I really wonder what they sound like.

[rando]

Waterproof headphones designed to seal the ear cavity and sound vibrations traveling through a body of water coming in contact with a set of ears. 

 

Highly dissimilar.  

[Ralf11]

16 hours ago, Rexp said:

Actually back in the day when Linn were at the forefront of high-end, they and other UK Manufacturers always advocated spending the majority of budget on the source. With digital isn't it the same? 

 

no

[botrytis]

I found room treatments, as I haven't got into DSP yet, is one of the best investments one can do. Not everyone can afford to build a room that is designed for an audio system, so room treatments help.

[StephenJK]

On 6/21/2019 at 12:09 PM, gordec said:

I have learned a lot of great information from the CA/AS community since joining. I went completely network based frontend and started to use better cable and power supplies. After playing with a lot of streamers and linear power supplies, I came to the conclusion that, to my ears, software, power supply, connection interface (network, USB, optical) and cables make up about 10% difference in overall sound quality. Headphone/speaker probably make up 30%-40%, amp 20%-30%, DAC 15%-30%. I have absolutely no problem spending a lot to get the most out of that 10%, but perhaps the best value is spend on the down stream components that could make a bigger difference in the overall sound quality. 

 

Do others feel that their frontend makes significantly more than 10% difference to their overall listening experience. If so, how much. I'm talking about sound quality alone, not the software/user interface. 

 

On 6/21/2019 at 12:09 PM, gordec said:

I have learned a lot of great information from the CA/AS community since joining. I went completely network based frontend and started to use better cable and power supplies. After playing with a lot of streamers and linear power supplies, I came to the conclusion that, to my ears, software, power supply, connection interface (network, USB, optical) and cables make up about 10% difference in overall sound quality. Headphone/speaker probably make up 30%-40%, amp 20%-30%, DAC 15%-30%. I have absolutely no problem spending a lot to get the most out of that 10%, but perhaps the best value is spend on the down stream components that could make a bigger difference in the overall sound quality. 

 

Do others feel that their frontend makes significantly more than 10% difference to their overall listening experience. If so, how much. I'm talking about sound quality alone, not the software/user interface. 

Wait a minute.  Looking at your equipment list, you don’t even own a stereo system.  You have a headphone amplifier and a mid-range pair of headphones.  

 

Nothing wrong with that, but I’m not convinced that your system is able of resolving any subtle nuances that a cable change could make.  

 

Am I missing something?

[StephenJK]

15 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

The same would be so for the DAC (these days / still). It is about as mechanical, but the relative forces and what is influenced are different (think infinitely more low jitter opposed to the TT's wow).

How does mechanical feedback to a softly sprung turntable relate to an electronic processor?  I was under the impression that jitter was a timing function, and one dealt with by making sure the only clock used was the one specific to the playback device.

 

Turntables don’t experience wow - wow and flutter was a tape thing related to poor tape speed control.  

 

 

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, SJK said:

How does mechanical feedback to a softly sprung turntable relate to an electronic processor?  I was under the impression that jitter was a timing function, and one dealt with by making sure the only clock used was the one specific to the playback device.

 

Turntables don’t experience wow - wow and flutter was a tape thing related to poor tape speed control.  

 

Xtal oscillator stability is also affected by vibration, which is why some DACs and media players go to a great deal of trouble to control case resonances etc. If you have a decent media player such as an Oppo, try listening to it both in a typical cabinet, and sitting on a carpeted floor. My Oppo 103 has added 3M 2552 self adhesive anti vibration tape inside the cover and other strategic locations including under the drive mechanism for this reason. It also sounds best in the cabinet when sitting on a piece of 10mm thick car sound reducing material with Butyl.

Yes, Turntables can experience WOW, due to variations in turntable speed and even older slipping drive belts.

[fas42]

Always everyone in the audio industry addresses these sort of questions in the wrong manner - worrying about how the levels of Goodness add up, in simple arithmetical patterns. Which is not how human hearing deals with what it hears - the ear/brain doesn't 'measure' how good the sound is; it's just aware of how the presentation comes across, and either gives it a tick - or a cross.

 

If one is aiming to create an illusion, to immerse oneself in the world of the recording - rather than be aware of how Gee Whiz! good your rig is - then the approach needs to very, very different. Worrying about percentages is equivalent to worrying about which bits of your next new car are most important for it to be satisying to own or drive - let's see: engine 35%, suspension, 27%, tyres 14%, etc, etc, etc ... hmmm, sorta dumb, eh? .

 

The one bit of sloppy assembly in the factory is what is going to kill your enjoyment of using that vehicle - and make you want to get rid of it; irrespective of all the brilliant stuff ... and that's how it works with audio too. You will become aware of the 'character' of the reproduction system, and that will always be there, reminding you that the rig is still not getting out of the way - which you will learn to live with, or actually enjoy, or make you  want to indulge in continual swapping, in the hope that the magic combo will fall out of the sky ... somehow.

[GregWormald]

On 6/23/2019 at 3:29 PM, semente said:

 

He (Tiefenbrun) tried but could never make good speakers? 😶

 

I haven't listened to Linn speakers since the Kaber (designed by an Australian, Dr Rod Crawford) but they were excellent and I bought a pair.

 

Rod recommended tri-wiring for noticeable improvements (I tried it and agreed) and substantial improvements by tri-amping actively (which I couldn't afford at the time). Hence my speaker upgrade was to a 4 active channel per speaker (SGRs in current drive mode).

 

I thought I was finished upgrading 🤣 until I auditioned several of my favourite LPs after ultrasonic cleaning. The cleaning improved the overall sound quality and musical enjoyment significantly. (Only 750 albums still to clean.🙄)

[numlog]

good headphones or speakers make a difference, but without blind testing I cant say for sure its not expectation bias

[semente]

1 hour ago, GregWormald said:

 

I haven't listened to Linn speakers since the Kaber (designed by an Australian, Dr Rod Crawford) but they were excellent and I bought a pair.

 

Rod recommended tri-wiring for noticeable improvements (I tried it and agreed) and substantial improvements by tri-amping actively (which I couldn't afford at the time). Hence my speaker upgrade was to a 4 active channel per speaker (SGRs in current drive mode).

 

I thought I was finished upgrading 🤣 until I auditioned several of my favourite LPs after ultrasonic cleaning. The cleaning improved the overall sound quality and musical enjoyment significantly. (Only 750 albums still to clean.🙄)

 

I had a pair of Linn Helix IIs back in the day. I wouldn't know if they were any good because I was only 19 at the time... 🙃 (sold them to a friend who still has them)

I wonder if they were also designed by Crawford,  whom I'd never heard of before?

Found a couple of interviews:

 

https://www.avhub.com.au/features/hi-fi/dr-rod-crawford-of-legend-acoustics-interviewed-at-the-melbourne-av-show-397103

 

http://www.legendspeakers.com.au/Backup-old-site/legendstory.php

 

P.S.: worst grill design ever by the way, kept popping out...

[marce]

20 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

Cables shouldn’t matter but they sometimes do. I wonder if the shielding around USB cables act as waveguides for transmitted EMI. Shielding also seems to be a problem Ethernet but for >= 10g, foil around each twisted pair reduces crosstalk. Suggest that twisting isn’t perfect 😉

Only a co-ax has all the fields contained within its structure, twisted pair is surrounded by the fields these do couple to other pairs in the bundles, nothings perfect.... The extra pair shielding in CAT 7 reduces this... Great for data centres and industrial runs that are far longer than domestic runs.

Crosstalk increases with longer runs so reducing it helps the signal integrity of these long runs.

[jabbr]

@marce I’ve experienced popping noises and static from some DACs but not others supplied by some power supplies or SBCs (via USB) but not others... presumably some USB interfaces emit gunk, so some cables might modulate the gunk ... of course the solution is to fix the USB interface but folks here mostly can’t measure gunk on the USB interface ... they can easily swap cables or add widgets though...

 

the problem really is that one person heard something once under one circumstance and then tries to make it an eternal and universal truth ...

[Ralf11]

a suitably energized person could calculate the extent to which shielding around USB cables acts as a waveguide for transmitted EMI - pick a couple of freq.s for boundary conditions and let 'er rip

[gordec]

17 hours ago, SJK said:

 

Wait a minute.  Looking at your equipment list, you don’t even own a stereo system.  You have a headphone amplifier and a mid-range pair of headphones.  

 

Nothing wrong with that, but I’m not convinced that your system is able of resolving any subtle nuances that a cable change could make.  

 

Am I missing something?

 

I'm saying headphone or speaker. I'm not sure someone would call Susvara a midrange headphone.  Are you thinking of Sundara?

[StephenJK]

17 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

Xtal oscillator stability is also affected by vibration, which is why some DACs and media players go to a great deal of trouble to control case resonances etc. If you have a decent media player such as an Oppo, try listening to it both in a typical cabinet, and sitting on a carpeted floor. My Oppo 103 has added 3M 2552 self adhesive anti vibration tape inside the cover and other strategic locations including under the drive mechanism for this reason. It also sounds best in the cabinet when sitting on a piece of 10mm thick car sound reducing material with Butyl.

Yes, Turntables can experience WOW, due to variations in turntable speed and even older slipping drive belts.

I guess I should hang out here more often, I’ve never heard of mechanical vibration affecting solid state chips.  Pressure, sure - vibration?  That’s a new one.  But you’re talking about a transport mechanism, meaning a CD player, not a DAC!

 

Either way, I’m not taking my stereo apart to put the DAC on the floor, and then wonder if there’s anything different other than where it is, but I will take your word for it.

 

Wow on a turntable - yes, I stand corrected, I just haven’t heard that with reference to belt drive turntables in some decades now, belt drive has come a long ways.  But I’m struggling to think of how belt slip could be that bad and not be highly noticeable.  Goodness, you can get an RPM app for your iPhone that will give an accurate speed indication if you don’t trust your ears.

 

[gordec]

My chain actually changed and haven't updated it. Now I use either DLNA server and stream straight from Pro iDSD or use Ultrarendu as Roon endpoint then feed Pro iDSD. My amp is now Soundaware P1 which is an excellent headphone amp for the price. I tested it against Voilectric V281,  MHA100, GSx MK2, Pro iCan, and the P1 beats all of them out. Anyways, I think removing Pro iDSD from the USB chain makes a noticeable difference. Ethernet/network is definitely the way to go, but it's still improvement within 10% of hardcap from my perspective. 

 

At one point I bought Wireworld Platinum Starlight ethernet cable, and I can't tell the difference between that and the $20 Amazon Cat6e cable, so I sold it. I also use Wireworld Electra power cables for both my amp and Pro iDSD. Everything is fed into Audioquest Niagara 1000. I think it makes some difference, but I would say the difference is subtle enough, it could be placebo effect also. 

[StephenJK]

31 minutes ago, gordec said:

 

I'm saying headphone or speaker. I'm not sure someone would call Susvara a midrange headphone.  Are you thinking of Sundara?

I should have elaborated in greater detail.  My point was that while your assumption of the differences that power supplies or cables could possibly make is your experience with your system.  For any other system with innumerable variables those conditions would not necessarily hold true.  

 

And, my intent was not to insult your headphones.  Yes, I have a pair of older Grado RS1e’s that I use rarely.  I think I prefer speakers as a sound source, but do have the room for a decent setup.

 

[gordec]

29 minutes ago, SJK said:

I should have elaborated in greater detail.  My point was that while your assumption of the differences that power supplies or cables could possibly make is your experience with your system.  For any other system with innumerable variables those conditions would not necessarily hold true.  

 

And, my intent was not to insult your headphones.  Yes, I have a pair of older Grado RS1e’s that I use rarely.  I think I prefer speakers as a sound source, but do have the room for a decent setup.

 

 

I have always been a headphone guy. I think from DAC, AMP, Headphone perspective, I have tried a lot of gear. I'm trying to figure out what the rest (cables, power source, frontend, software) can do for the overall sound. My conclusion is 10%. I have no problem spending a lot to achieve any audible difference even it's just within that 10%. I just want to see if that's what others experience is. 

 

A friend locally just bought the Zenith MKIII to feed his mDave setup. He admits Zen as a server maybe give him about 10% improvement over USB. However, he is driving Hifiman HE1000se straight out of the Dave, which may not have enough amp to drive HeKse to its full potential.  

 

I feel I got the headphone/speaker, amp, dac figured out, so I know that anything else I change is not because I under invested in the downstream components.