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1 hour ago, shtf said:

ambient info already embedded in most any given recording.  If/when that is achieved, the recording hall's ambient info embedded in the recording and remaining audible at the speaker should in most instances completely overshadow most / all room acoustic anomalies.

 

 

If only this statement is correct....

 

A recording is nothing more than an attempt to repeat the sound made by the instruments at another venue. Otherwise, a perfect recording should sound like the original event in an anechoic chamber. Understand this and you will see that a record cannot and will never contain all the information of the original event unless you go multi channel recordings and multi channels playback.

 

I thought of converting some of Linn's classical stereo sound to 4.0 (or even 5.0) format so that it could be played in a standard 5.1 system to show this point but looking at the response in other thread I rather spend my time useful doing something else. Like looking for the micro SD card which just disappeared right in front of my eyes when I was opening the package. :) It just happened.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, STC said:

Like looking for the micro SD card which just disappeared right in front of my eyes when I was opening the package. :) It just happened.

 

Start to practice soldering 0201 SMD.

I'd already need sharper vision to see the things in the fist place. :/

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16 hours ago, jabbr said:

 

You claimed vibration management makes up 60% of the SQ of an audio system. Now you claim that you’ve got something better than what I’ve implemented (and done comparative listening test on). My views and techniques are well documented on this site so no need to repeat. 60% is absurd for any system. There is also vast literature of vibration mitigation in physics eg graviton detection. So let’s see measurements. Vibrations are eminently measurable. 

 

Yeah, I’d say 60% is a pretty safe conservative estimate.

 

I never claimed to have anything better than you as I do not know you or your work.  But it would seem that you inadvertently claimed what I had was substantially better than anything you’ve assembled when you opened that thread a while back and you said that the distortions induced by unwanted vibrations were controversial which I interpret as insignificant or a potential non-issue. 

 

What I find interesting is that you seem to wanna be labeled here as some type of vibration mgmt. expert (doesn’t everybody?), yet after all your great time spent studying vibrations, their sources, their behaviors, the distortions they induce, experiments, etc, you walked away seemingly empty-handed. 

 

From your perspective, I can absolutely understand why you would think 60% is absurd.  But then based on your findings you’d probably think 6 or 7% was also absurd.

 

You wanna see measurements?  Answer me this.  Do you even know what to measure, much less properly interpret any findings?  Is it not true that every electrical wire and internal electrical component vibrates when current is flowing through them?  How are you going to measure all that?

 

If we’re talking air-borne vibrations, is not the chassis impacted first by that unwanted energy but then every internal object directly or indirectly impacted secondarily?

 

If we’re talking floor-borne vibrations, wouldn’t that impact be quite similar to air-borne vibrations?

 

Now here I just mentioned yesterday that with my methods I was able to extract perhaps 3 times the performance of my already fabulous Jena Labs line conditioners’ out-of-the-box performance and here you are claiming that the sonic harm induced by unwanted vibrations is controversial at best and near zero at worst.

 

With such diametrically opposed findings would that not make one of us a false prophet?

 

Quote

 

You also use this bizarre terminology of a “bi-directional” line filter ... get a grip of some basic electronics. Circuits are circular, bidirectional ... all of it. Noise floor is also trivial to measure — or just listen — no need for bizarro terminology.

 

How superior line conditioners work is clearly outside my scope as I just use them and have been since 2000.  Jena Labs is the manufacturer and my current models are THE Two. 

 

Maybe you should contact Jena Labs directly to let them know how bizarre you think this bi-directional filtering crap is.  Even though it seems fairly well known to some that all digital noise is bi-directional including those digital-like distortions from Class D amps even though they are not digital. 

 

As former NASA contractors / scientists I’m sure they’d love to get your thoughts.  One of them also worked on the Voyager 1 project where many parts of the Voyager 1 were cryogenically treated via the full immersion method and they carried that cryo-treatment into their high-end audio business and have been cryo-treating many of their products for the past 30 years.  I’m sure you’ll have some insights to share with them on that subject too.

 

Quote

 

Let me say it again: the only rational reason for you to hold these views is if you are trying to peddle snake oil — what is your agenda? Do you have an industry affiliation? Are you in the business of selling products? What?

 

No product to sell.  Well, not for the past 8 years anyway.  But considering your findings vs my findings on vibrations and perhaps your findings vs Jena Labs’ finding on line conditioners, bi-directional noise, cryo-treating, etc, what exactly is your definition of snake oil?   If I should feel the need to use that term, I just wanna make sure I use it in a context that’s understandable.

 

The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy. Wait.  It's all just variations of managing electrical energy.  -Me

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10 minutes ago, shtf said:

Yeah, I’d say 60% is a pretty safe conservative estimate.

 

Btw, I wouldn't throw in credentials (as you just did). Seems to weaken.

Thanks for a good post.

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28 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Btw, I wouldn't throw in credentials (as you just did). Seems to weaken.

Thanks for a good post.

Peter

 If it's not a" trade" secret , what is your special sauce for reducing the unwanted effects of vibration, which can even affect certain types of capacitors ? I have found the addition of the expensive 3M 2552 self adhesive anti vibration aluminium tape to be of benefit in the metalwork of a cabinet at certain locations. It reportedly converts vibration to heat. (this tape came originally from the 3M Space and Aeronautical Division and I was given a sample by a C.S.I.R.O. scientist from Queensland.)  Quite a few members of a U.K. based Audio forum found this tape quite beneficial when some was attached to al.fe's LG GGW H20L BR writer

 

I wouldn't go as far as claiming such a high  % improvement though.

 

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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What you are working on is great but so special and complicated
that I must say that I don't have the knowledge to help you
in doing calculations for you.

Don't forget that I'm old as a dinosaur.

 

R.I.P.

 

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2.5      Ethernet^3     HDMI^2     XLR^2

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Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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1 hour ago, STC said:

I thought of converting some of Linn's classical stereo sound to 4.0 (or even 5.0) format so that it could be played in a standard 5.1 system to show this point but looking at the response in other thread …….

 

 If you search UseNet you will find numerous examples of music that has been converted to multi channel in .dts format.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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1 hour ago, sandyk said:

 

 If you search UseNet you will find numerous examples of music that has been converted to multi channel in .dts format.

 

Thanks. I know there are softwares which Upmix for multi channels like https://nugenaudio.com/ but I am interest more of recreating the perfect venue. The DTS upmix are not really realistic but kids seemed to like them. 

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Why vibrations matter is that the materials used in all the various parts inside components respond by generating subtle electrical noise, from various parasitic behaviours, and mechanical imperfections. Just enough to degrade the perceived SQ - and the elimination of those factors by whatever means can make a substantial difference in the listening.

 

I use a combination of preventing vibration reaching the parts that may be affected, and, stabilising the internals so that any movement is strongly damped ... how far does one go? Until doing more than what one has done to that point makes no apparent difference.

 

The rule is pretty simple: the better the rig is in resolving detail, the more likely attention in this area will provide substantial improvement.

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3 hours ago, STC said:

 

If only this statement is correct....

 

But it is.  Just ask me.

 

Quote

 

A recording is nothing more than an attempt to repeat the sound made by the instruments at another venue. Otherwise, a perfect recording should sound like the original event in an anechoic chamber. Understand this and you will see that a record cannot and will never contain all the information of the original event unless you go multi channel recordings and multi channels playback.

 

...

 

 

I certainly never said a recording can or ever will contain all the info of the live event.  But I will say that every last recording contains far more of the live event than you and many currently think.  In fact, your playback system is already reading and processing perhaps 100% of the music info embedded in the recording (not the live event).  But by the time it reaches your speakers, much of it is completely inaudible.  As a result, you and many others think microphones and recordings are simply unable to capture much of the live performance.  

 

If you understood that there’s far more music info embedded in every last recording than what we currently hear, that it’s possible to keep audible at the speaker, and how much more musical and engaging that additional music info brings to the presentation, I suspect you’d sell off all your Ambiophonics gear, donate your binaural recordings to charity, settle on Redbook and 2-channel, and use that garage sale money toward a nice used sports car, and enjoy a much more simplified lifestyle.  :)

The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy. Wait.  It's all just variations of managing electrical energy.  -Me

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10 minutes ago, shtf said:

I certainly never said a recording can or ever will contain all the info of the live event.  But I will say that every last recording contains far more of the live event than you and many currently think.  In fact, your playback system is already reading and processing perhaps 100% of the music info embedded in the recording (not the live event).  But by the time it reaches your speakers, much of it is completely inaudible.  As a result, you and many others think microphones and recordings are simply unable to capture much of the live performance. 

 

Yes, that's the story. Recordings are truly amazing captures of musical events, and creations. Worth vastly more than the overly expensive combos of equipment that attempt to extract this information - and that usually do a relatively poor job of it.

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6 hours ago, shtf said:

I didn't say it like that by any means.  I really don't care much what the room acoustics are.  Perfect or not.  All I care about is whether or not the room is reasonable.  By that I'm implying there's reasonable floor coverings, reasonable symmetry, reasonably minimal reflective furnishings/surfaces, and reasonable dimensions.  Nothing more, unless I'm forgetting something.

 

But what you seem to be overlooking is my statement about keeping audible at the speaker the volumes of ambient info already embedded in most any given recording.  If/when that is achieved, the recording hall's ambient info embedded in the recording and remaining audible at the speaker should in most instances completely overshadow most / all room acoustic anomalies.

Oh, you're saying room acoustics don't matter, assuming the room is good enough.

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54 minutes ago, shtf said:

But it is.  Just ask me.

 

You just admitted two months ago you were a novice when it comes to recording sound and now suddenly became expert?  

 

I have friends who get live dose musical performance on daily basis who believed that their recording already contained all the information until they were shown the difference. 

 

For a soloist or two or three band performance the recording can be accurate but when you move to full ensemble and other acoustic performance where ambiance is important, you will notice the difference. And of course, the same often repeated explanation why stereo can never reproduce the exact sound. But that getting tired right?

 

how did your binaural recording go?

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8 hours ago, shtf said:

 

Yeah, I’d say 60% is a pretty safe conservative estimate.

...

 

You wanna see measurements?  Answer me this.  Do you even know what to measure, much less properly interpret any findings?  Is it not true that every electrical wire and internal electrical component vibrates when current is flowing through them?  How are you going to measure all that?

 

What do you mean by vibration? Mechanical or electrical? This is physics. The methods to measure vibration are well known. 

 

I can't interpret your language, let alone your "findings" ... have you presented them? I am not sure we are using the same language? That said the field of electromagnetism has been well studied and deflection in ferromagnetic coils such as in certain transformers is also well known. 

 

Pick one of the well accepted ways to measure vibrations.

 

8 hours ago, shtf said:

 

If we’re talking air-borne vibrations, is not the chassis impacted first by that unwanted energy but then every internal object directly or indirectly impacted secondarily?

 

If we’re talking floor-borne vibrations, wouldn’t that impact be quite similar to air-borne vibrations?

 

The two are different but both are examples of mechanical vibrations that can be mitigated using different techniques. If you want to look at state of the art techniques, such as non-linear springs, they are published --- I am not trying to promote a single technique nor a single product, rather providing information.

 

8 hours ago, shtf said:

As former NASA contractors / scientists I’m sure they’d love to get your thoughts.  One of them also worked on the Voyager 1 project where many parts of the Voyager 1 were cryogenically treated via the full immersion method and they carried that cryo-treatment into their high-end audio business and have been cryo-treating many of their products for the past 30 years.  I’m sure you’ll have some insights to share with them on that subject too.

...

With such diametrically opposed findings would that not make one of us a false prophet?

 

Speaking of the Voyager project. It is perhaps one of the finest examples of Physics at work, both conceptually and in implementation.

 

NASA essentially subcontracted the Voyager project to Caltech and its JPL, or should I say, that NASA funded and helped manage the Voyager project for the Caltech JPL. Let's just say that iff I am a prophet, then I spread the word of Ed Stone. (I hold him in special regard). Caltech (and MIT) also led to Fairchild semi, and then Intel, so clearly the spinoffs from Physics research have affected our everyday lives.

 

In any case since you invoked the Voyager project, let's step back and learn the larger lesson: It was based on solid physics, using great deal of planning and outstanding engineering, in order to make measurements that have never been made before. The Voyager project is a testament to the use of  mathematical physics to create an instrument providing measurements that in turn enable the validation of yet more mathematical physics. The gift that keeps on giving.

 

8 hours ago, shtf said:

 

No product to sell.  Well, not for the past 8 years anyway.  But considering your findings vs my findings on vibrations and perhaps your findings vs Jena Labs’ finding on line conditioners, bi-directional noise, cryo-treating, etc, what exactly is your definition of snake oil?   If I should feel the need to use that term, I just wanna make sure I use it in a context that’s understandable.

 

 

Fair enough, if you aren't selling anything nor have an industry affiliation then my apologies for accusing you of peddling snake oil. At the moment we have different definitions for basic terms such as "information" and "vibration", and you don't seem to agree on an objective way to decide on a % (i.e. a measurement), we are off by one or two orders of magnitude so further debate is pointless.

Custom room treatments for headphone users.

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shtf, I doubt you will get anywhere here ... these are people who say they believe in integrity as a concept that applies to other ventures - but have little interest in considering it relevant to audio. Unfortunately, the same rules of physics do apply to chains of electronics used for audio playback, as for space missions - and also unfortunately, the ears are sensitive to lackings in that circuitry to a very fine degree. In Voyager, staggering amounts of money go down the gurgler if it's a tiny bit wrong; in audio it merely means that one listens to somewhat subpar sound - the order of magnitude of motivation is slightly different, :).

 

Audio is a fantasy hobby for most; few are genuinely interested in evolving the quality of sound heard by being more fastidious in the assembly of the parts, and refining the overall setup of the system - so they will keep chasing gimmicks and impressively technical solutions to try and mask shortcomings in the core functioning of the 'machinery' ... hmmm, for some reason Microsoft Windows just popped up as a thought bubble ...

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For goodness sake.  Can we stop with this sophomoric nonsense about micro vibrations and putting our DAC in a puddle of freaking water.  Give it a rest.  Stop feeding the troll.

 

You don’t need NASA to tell you that a liquid is a better conductor of sound and vibration than a gas!  Stop with the pseudoscience, and go back to your comics.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Have you considered the possibility that you haven't the slightest understanding of terms like experiment and science ??

 

I certainly appreciate that many here are fond of poor quality, badly constructed experiments - sloppily done to ensure that their strongly held beliefs are not endangered - if it smells sciencey enough, well, it must be valid!

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1 hour ago, fas42 said:

shtf, I doubt you will get anywhere here ... these are people who say they believe in integrity as a concept that applies to other ventures - but have little interest in considering it relevant to audio. Unfortunately, the same rules of physics do apply to chains of electronics used for audio playback, as for space missions - and also unfortunately, the ears are sensitive to lackings in that circuitry to a very fine degree. In Voyager, staggering amounts of money go down the gurgler if it's a tiny bit wrong; in audio it merely means that one listens to somewhat subpar sound - the order of magnitude of motivation is slightly different, :).

 

Audio is a fantasy hobby for most; few are genuinely interested in evolving the quality of sound heard by being more fastidious in the assembly of the parts, and refining the overall setup of the system - so they will keep chasing gimmicks and impressively technical solutions to try and mask shortcomings in the core functioning of the 'machinery' ... hmmm, for some reason Microsoft Windows just popped up as a thought bubble ...

 

Thanks, Frank.  Yeah, high-end audio certainly has more than its fair share of these types.

 

There’s an abundance of hacks, bush-leaguers, and also-rans in every industry but these types aren’t even that.   Hacks, bush-leaguers, and also-rans are usually genuine and well-intentioned but lack the talent and/or tools to perform a sufficient or better job.  These are more self-delusional parasitical charlatans taking their brains out for a joy ride to demonstrate some form of perverted supreme intelligence that actually works to some extent when conversing amongst themselves and some newbees that come along.

 

In this case it seems at least Jabbr was cognizant enough not continue our meaningful monologue, I mean meaningful dialogue as he probably realized he can’t win because of his own admissions.  I particularly got a chuckle out of Jabbr’s earlier response as the entire thing was nothing more than a diversion while attempting to gracefully bow out pretending to let me off his hook while still trying to flex a brain muscle or two.  Can’t say the same for Ralfy11, who continues to struggle thinking one day he might walk away a winner.

 

But make no mistake.  This is the real snake oil being peddled everywhere throughout high-end audio and a colossal waste of everybody’s time including their own.  As I like to say, the mind is a terrible thing to waste, especially on others.

 

I just like to poke a finger in their eye once in a while but like a plague they are everywhere.

 

I appreciate the note.  You’re a good egg with good ears.

The more I dabble with extreme forms of electrical mgmt. and extreme forms of vibration mgmt., the more I’m convinced it’s all just variations of managing mechanical energy. Or was it all just variations of managing electrical energy? No, it’s all just variations of mechanical energy. Wait.  It's all just variations of managing electrical energy.  -Me

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1 hour ago, shtf said:

There’s an abundance of hacks, bush-leaguers, and also-rans in every industry but these types aren’t even that.   Hacks, bush-leaguers, and also-rans are usually genuine and well-intentioned but lack the talent and/or tools to perform a sufficient or better job.  These are more self-delusional parasitical charlatans taking their brains out for a joy ride to demonstrate some form of perverted supreme intelligence that actually works to some extent when conversing amongst themselves and some newbees that come along.

 

In this case it seems at least Jabbr was cognizant enough not continue our meaningful monologue, I mean meaningful dialogue as he probably realized he can’t win because of his own admissions.  I particularly got a chuckle out of Jabbr’s earlier response as the entire thing was nothing more than a diversion while attempting to gracefully bow out pretending to let me off his hook while still trying to flex a brain muscle or two.  Can’t say the same for Ralfy11, who continues to struggle thinking one day he might walk away a winner.

 

But make no mistake.  This is the real snake oil being peddled everywhere throughout high-end audio and a colossal waste of everybody’s time including their own.  As I like to say, the mind is a terrible thing to waste, especially on others.

 

I just like to poke a finger in their eye once in a while but like a plague they are everywhere.

 

 

 

you seem to have some bad vibes in your  lateral ganglionic eminence

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