16 bit files almost unlistenable now...

[PeterSt]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

If all distortion is below -120dB it will sound the same when playing a regular recording as you reduce distortion+noise level to -130dB, -150dB or -200dB.

 

Quote

As I said, THD+N is a single number and does not describe fully a complex system.

 

Should it, for some reason ? I understand, it would be convenient. But ...

 

This goes nowhere now. Blame me. 

 

PS: Not that it went anywhere before.

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, PeterSt said:

 

 

Should it, for some reason ? I understand, it would be convenient. But ...

 

This goes nowhere now. Blame me. 

 

PS: Not that it went anywhere before.

 

No, it shouldn't. You brought it up

[Jud]

Guessing Peter's point with the two quotes is this: He says reducing distortion is always good.  In reply you say two things:

 

- You can't say you'll always notice reduced distortion because you're dealing with something non-linear (chaotic) and complex. 

 

- You can say you will never notice distortion anywhere in the system once you measure it (where?) at -120dB.

 

These two statements seem contradictory: If things are so complex and chaotic, how is this simple assurance possible?

 

(I will readily grant my own skepticism at being able to hear the effect on music of distortion that far down in level. On the other hand, I have never been thrilled with the philosophy that says essentially "Speakers are so damn imperfect, why bother much with the rest?")

[pkane2001]

10 minutes ago, Jud said:

Guessing Peter's point with the two quotes is this: He says reducing distortion is always good.  In reply you say two things:

 

- You can't say you'll always notice reduced distortion because you're dealing with something non-linear (chaotic) and complex. 

 

- You can say you will never notice distortion anywhere in the system once you measure it (where?) at -120dB.

 

These two statements seem contradictory: If things are so complex and chaotic, how is this simple assurance possible?

 

(I will readily grant my own skepticism at being able to hear the effect on music of distortion that far down in level. On the other hand, I have never been thrilled with the philosophy that says essentially "Speakers are so damn imperfect, why bother much with the rest?")

 

Hi Jud,

 

I think you misunderstood. I said you can't use a single number (like THD+N or rms jitter, or average impedance, or...) to characterize a complex, non-linear system. And that all distortions are inaudible below a certain level in analog output. So, it makes no sense to continue to try to reduce them to lower and lower levels if all you're interested in is sound quality.

 

 

[diecaster]

Low distortion numbers are NOT an indicator of great sound quality. 

[pkane2001]

4 minutes ago, diecaster said:

Low distortion numbers are NOT an indicator of great sound quality. 

 

But high distortion numbers are an indicator of poor sound quality.

 

[mansr]

15 minutes ago, diecaster said:

Low distortion numbers are NOT an indicator of great sound quality. 

No, not if you enjoy distortion.

[gmgraves]

15 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

You've decided it isn't there - because the equipment you're using isn't showing it to you ... I have seen what's there so many times, because I've managed to get a setup to the point where it comes through - and every time it comes through, it's exactly the same. Now, what do you suppose that might indicate, hmmm ... ?

That your rich imagination is consistent as are your auditory hallucinations?

[gmgraves]

15 hours ago, fas42 said:

 

Ummm, books have been written about the subject of how connections "go bad".  In the instrumentation field there is a concept of "contact noise" - now, I wonder what on earth they might be talking about, .

Cleanliness is the key to low resistance and low noise connections using RCAs. Clean 'em good, make a nice, tight connection and you'll have a corrosion free, noise free connection.

BTW, do you know the history of the RCA connector? I.E. where it originated? During the waning days of WWII, RCA Labs in Camden NJ, were working on their first post-war product, the RCA Victor model 1630 television. The 1 meant the first postwar TV, the 6 meant the year it was to come out, and the 30 meant it had 30 tubes. The TV consisted of two chassis: the large one with most of the circuitry, and the huge drum tuner chassis that had the big rotary channel selector and the RF amplifier and  mixer/oscillator tubes. They had to have someway to get the IF signal from the tuner chassis to IF strip on the main chassis, and somebody at RCA Labs came up with the RCA connector. It was perfect. It was cheap, it would only rarely ever have to be disconnected during the life of the set, but with the idea that the tuner might need to be serviced from time to time, RCA wanted the Tuner to be disconnect-able.  

[Abtr]

11 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Cleanliness is the key to low resistance and low noise connections using RCAs. Clean 'em good, make a nice, tight connection and you'll have a corrosion free, noise free connection.

...

Copper-oxide is a good conductor..

[gmgraves]

9 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

It may not be singing according to your defined preference, but to state that pop/rock vocals are not "'singing' in the strict definition of the word" is complete nonsense.

Of course it's according to my preference, I would have thought that would be apparent. I find no pleasure in listening to the acid-scarred vocalizations of these rock "singers" and I must say that I really don't see the appeal that they could have for anybody!. There used to be a TV show that I liked to watch occasionally called "CSI Miami". The show's "theme song" was something called "I don't get fooled again" by a group called 'The Who' (I think. somebody told me that, so I'm not sure). At the beginning of each show was the hook, then the theme and then a commercial. I had to be ready with the mute control and anticipate when the hook ended and just before that first awful scream to kill the audio. To me that's just noise. 

[diecaster]

21 minutes ago, Abtr said:

Copper-oxide is a good conductor..

 

No. Copper oxide is a high resistance conductor and is not a good conductor. If you are making a connection using copper that has oxidized, you want to remove that oxidation and get to clean non-oxidized copper. 

[diecaster]

7 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

Of course it's according to my preference, I would have thought that would be apparent. I find no pleasure in listening to the acid-scarred vocalizations of these rock "singers" and I must say that I really don't see the appeal that they could have for anybody!. There used to be a TV show that I liked to watch occasionally called "CSI Miami". The show's "theme song" was something called "I don't get fooled again" by a group called 'The Who' (I think. somebody told me that, so I'm not sure). At the beginning of each show was the hook, then the theme and then a commercial. I had to be ready with the mute control and anticipate when the hook ended and just before that first awful scream to kill the audio. To me that's just noise. 

 

I sure hope that is sarcasm.

[gmgraves]

6 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

Do you claim that all with a THD+N below -120dB sounds the same ?

 

I think the answer there is that THD+N below -120 dB sounds like nothing because it's below the threshold of human hearing - and that's based on the ideal being -115 to -117 dB. If you've spent any time in a  proverbial "boiler factory" environment, or listening to very loud music your threshold of hearing may now be as high as -105 dB. It's somewhat different for different people. the point is, if the THD+N is so far down that you can't hear it, then for all practical considerations, it doesn't exist. 

[gmgraves]

1 minute ago, diecaster said:

 

I sure hope that is sarcasm.

You hope what is sarcasm? 

[diecaster]

Just now, gmgraves said:

You hope what is sarcasm? 

 

The whole part about The Who and “Won’t Get Fooled Again”. 

[gmgraves]

8 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

No. Copper oxide is a high resistance conductor and is not a good conductor. If you are making a connection using copper that has oxidized, you want to remove that oxidation and get to clean non-oxidized copper. 

Amen to that brother. Corrosion on any interconnects can actually form a diode junction and partially rectify the AC signal passing through the connector. That diode junction result is a terrible sounding distortion. KEEP YOUR CONNECTIONS CLEAN!

[gmgraves]

1 minute ago, diecaster said:

 

The whole part about The Who and “Won’t Get Fooled Again”. 

OK, you're going to have explain that better. Are you saying that it wasn't The Who performing the theme to that TV show? I think I said that I wasn't sure about that and was going by what someone told me. Believe me, I wouldn't know The Who from The Grateful Dead. And I did mute the sound on the TV in anticipation of that awful noise!

[Ralf11]

non-linear  does not mean chaotic, jud

 

and.. it should be obvious to everyone that if distortion is < hearing, it cannot be heard

 

- 120 dB is pretty durn low

[diecaster]

“Who’s Next”, by The Who, is generally considered to be one of the best Rock albums of all time. “Won’t Get Fooled Again” is arguably the best track on the album.

[Allan F]

1 hour ago, gmgraves said:

Of course it's according to my preference, I would have thought that would be apparent. I find no pleasure in listening to the acid-scarred vocalizations of these rock "singers" and I must say that I really don't see the appeal that they could have for anybody!. There used to be a TV show that I liked to watch occasionally called "CSI Miami". The show's "theme song" was something called "I don't get fooled again" by a group called 'The Who' (I think. somebody told me that, so I'm not sure). At the beginning of each show was the hook, then the theme and then a commercial. I had to be ready with the mute control and anticipate when the hook ended and just before that first awful scream to kill the audio. To me that's just noise. 

 

Conveniently, rather than address your nonsensical statement that pop/rock vocals are "not singing' in the strict definition of the word", you resort once again to a rant about The Who. Elevating your subjective preference to an objective definition is, IMO, akin to citing "alternative facts". Are you taking distraction lessons from Donald Trump?

 

 

[kumakuma]

7 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

Conveniently, rather than address your nonsensical statement that pop/rock vocals are "not singing' in the strict definition of the word", you resort once again to a rant about The Who. Are you taking distraction lessons from Donald Trump?

 

 

I think Goodwin's Law needs to be updated for the Trump Era.

[Abtr]

1 hour ago, diecaster said:

 

No. Copper oxide is a high resistance conductor and is not a good conductor. If you are making a connection using copper that has oxidized, you want to remove that oxidation and get to clean non-oxidized copper. 

OK, it's not a good conductor (resistance ~ 1ohm/mm) but still a conductor. In case of a thin film of CuO on a copper connector you may see a few milli ohms of added resistance. I don't think that would be audible. But thanks for the correction.  And everyone uses gold plated connectors anyway.

[Jud]

5 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Hi Jud,

 

I think you misunderstood. I said you can't use a single number (like THD+N or rms jitter, or average impedance, or...) to characterize a complex, non-linear system. And that all distortions are inaudible below a certain level in analog output. So, it makes no sense to continue to try to reduce them to lower and lower levels if all you're interested in is sound quality.

 

Thanks, I understand what you are saying better now.

 

Both arguments (yours and Peter's) have appeal to me, and I don't know enough to decide.   

[Allan F]

16 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I think Goodwin's Law needs to be updated for the Trump Era.

 

As a contemporary and reasonable allusion, IMO it lacks the degree of hyperbole necessary. Perhaps, with the passage of time, such an update will become appropriate.