Lies about vinyl vs digital

[StephenJK]

23 minutes ago, semente said:

 

If you can afford to own two source systems and aren't disturbed by vinyl's distortion footprint then it makes a lot of sense to get the best release.

 

I listen mostly to classical music and that sounds a lot better in digital so it doesn't really bother me much.

I don’t normally have duplicates of CD and LP, that was from a transitional phase but the results seemed to fit this conversation. As I continue to record LPs I’ve worked through all the classical and now have only a few operas left to do!

[AudioDoctor]

I think vinyl is much more difficult to get right than digital, and for that reason alone a lot of people have moved away from vinyl. 

[kumakuma]

5 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I think vinyl is much more difficult to get right than digital, and for that reason alone a lot of people have moved away from vinyl. 

 

[The_K-Man]

2 hours ago, semente said:

I listen mostly to classical music and that sounds a

lot better in digital so it doesn't really bother me much.

 

Anything can sound better in digital than it does in analog - if it isn't compressed or brick wall limited to within a millimeter of its life!!  

 

Digital formats do not do that, not to mention other processing - Mixing and Mastering engineers DO.  Typically at the request of their clients(artists themselves, producers, record labels, et al).

 

Attention audiophiles:

Instead of wasting time obsessing over the audibility of frequencies above even the hearing range of DOGS, let alone humans, and spending $thousands on equipment being hocked as able to reproduce these ridiculous frequencies ....

 

LEARN about the music business, and the creative and production processes that bring your favorite songs and albums to market.

[AudioDoctor]

42 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

One of my favorites. Vinyl is a pain in the ass. But it’s worth it, imo. Just like making coffee with a French Press versus a Keurig. 

[The_K-Man]

12 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

One of my favorites. Vinyl is a pain in the ass. But it’s worth it, imo. Just like making coffee with a French press versus a Keurig. 

 

What, pray tell, is such a "PITA" about spending only $200 on a good turntable - not those cheapo plastic suitcase things with every type of output(USB, Blue Tooth, RCA phono, etc etc) that millennials new to the vinyl hobby are drawn to like overzealous moths to a buzzing streetlight on a humid August evening in the suburbs of Miami, FL - but a rock solid basic Technics or even a Gemini DJ with all the requisite adjustments, setting it up in a stable location, and performing all the adjustments (tonearm height, tracking force, anti-skate pressure) and just enjoying it??

 

No need to spend enough money, to land a nice 2015 Honda Accord, on an outboard tube preamp - the one inside your typical stereo receiver will do the job quite nicely, thank you very much... so long as it didn't fall off a truck. Just use common sense here with the basics, and both your vinyl(LPs, 45s, and 78s) and your ears will thank you.

[Ralf11]

16 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

What, pray tell, is such a "PITA" about spending only $200 on a good turntable

 

the PITA is the SQ from a $200 TT

 

now if you spend $2k or $20k it will do a good job on the LPs that have better masterings than CDs, and not all LP albums made it to CD at all

[The_K-Man]

19 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

the PITA is the SQ from a $200 TT

 

now if you spend $2k or $20k it will do a

good job on the LPs that have better masterings

than CDs, and not all LP albums made it to CD

at all

 

I keep forgetting that the name of this forum has always contained the word 'Audiophile'.

 

Fine, Ralf, enjoy the sound of your $10,000+ turntable & pre-amp combo, because that's all that must matter - not the MUSIC being played..  🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️!

 

As for me, I'd rather invest some of those $thousands in CDs - the kind guaranteed by the FDIC.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, AudioDoctor said:

I think vinyl is much more difficult to get right than digital, and for that reason alone a lot of people have moved away from vinyl. 

 

It's been a fascinating exercise, visiting the audio friend down the road - he puts as much energy and attention to detail in the vinyl as he does for digital  - and the pendulum swings one way or the other, depending upon what's been tweaked recently. His vinyl, to give an idea,  is far superior to anything I heard from this medium, at the last audio show I went to - the SQ there was, surprisingly, very lacklustre, on very expensive rigs.

 

Quite often we sample some recordings on vinyl, and on digital, when I first turn up. If one format is a clear winner, which it often is, then we stick with that one, and see where the SQ can go ...

 

Last visit, LP replay was in top form - misdemeanours from it being from a plow being dragged through a furrow, 😀, were quite inaudible; quite special to listen to, 🙂.

[kumakuma]

21 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

I keep forgetting that the name of this forum has always contained the word 'Audiophile'.

 

Fine, Ralf, enjoy the sound of your $10,000+ turntable & pre-amp combo, because that's all that must matter - not the MUSIC being played..  🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️!

 

As for me, I'd rather invest some of those $thousands in CDs - the kind guaranteed by the FDIC.

 

[StephenJK]

1 hour ago, AudioDoctor said:

I think vinyl is much more difficult to get right than digital, and for that reason alone a lot of people have moved away from vinyl. 

I would never question that point. I grew up with LPs and highly doubt that many turntables were ever setup properly. Those small, shiny things with”perfect sound forever” had a strong appeal. 
 

i never cared for CD sound up until the early 2000’s when high quality CD players and transports became available on the used market at bargain prices. 
 

But in the meantime, I ended up with over 2,000 LPs and about 1,000 CDs. To make a long story short, I ripped the CDs and recorded all the LPs. 
 

When I buy music now it’s either a CD for things that don’t exist in any other form or High Res downloads. I still have a foot in both worlds, and enjoy these discussions. 
 

The only question that remains is what to do with a complete Neil Young LP discography. 

[Ralf11]

42 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

I keep forgetting that the name of this forum has always contained the word 'Audiophile'.

 

Fine, Ralf, enjoy the sound of your $10,000+ turntable & pre-amp combo, because that's all that must matter - not the MUSIC being played..  🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️!

 

As for me, I'd rather invest some of those $thousands in CDs - the kind guaranteed by the FDIC.

 

is it possible to do a worse job of reading a post??

 

 

[StephenJK]

59 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

I keep forgetting that the name of this forum has always contained the word 'Audiophile'.

 

Fine, Ralf, enjoy the sound of your $10,000+ turntable & pre-amp combo, because that's all that must matter - not the MUSIC being played..  🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️!

 

As for me, I'd rather invest some of those $thousands in CDs - the kind guaranteed by the FDIC.

And nobody here should ever argue that point. Do what works for you. I invested a lot in a turntable because it was important to me, particularly when making archive recordings. 
 

But yes, I would debate whether a $200 turntable should be used to play $30 records.  As has often been said with stereo systems, “a 10% improvement comes with a 100% cost”. 

[The_K-Man]

6 minutes ago, SJK said:

And nobody here should ever argue that point. Do what

works for you. I invested a lot in a turntable because it

was important to me, particularly when making archive

recordings. 
 

But yes, I would debate whether a $200 turntable should

be used to play $30 records.  As has often been said with

stereo systems, “a 10% improvement comes with a 100%

cost”. 

 

Ahh yes... Audiophiles luuv zeros, lots of them, sometimes separated by commas, after a dollar sign.

 

Whether or not a $30 record should be allowed on a $200-300 TT has nothing to do with the price paid for said TT, yet has everything to do with placement on a solid, level surface, and proper adjustment of aforementioned settings(tracking force, anti-skate, cartridge azimuth, etc.).  

[AudioDoctor]

1 hour ago, The_K-Man said:

 

What, pray tell, is such a "PITA" about spending only $200 on a good turntable - not those cheapo plastic suitcase things with every type of output(USB, Blue Tooth, RCA phono, etc etc) that millennials new to the vinyl hobby are drawn to like overzealous moths to a buzzing streetlight on a humid August evening in the suburbs of Miami, FL - but a rock solid basic Technics or even a Gemini DJ with all the requisite adjustments, setting it up in a stable location, and performing all the adjustments (tonearm height, tracking force, anti-skate pressure) and just enjoying it??

 

No need to spend enough money, to land a nice 2015 Honda Accord, on an outboard tube preamp - the one inside your typical stereo receiver will do the job quite nicely, thank you very much... so long as it didn't fall off a truck. Just use common sense here with the basics, and both your vinyl(LPs, 45s, and 78s) and your ears will thank you.

well...

 

when was the last time you set tracking force on a cd?

[The_K-Man]

3 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

well...

 

when was the last time you set tracking force on a cd?

 

Irrelevant, immaterial, apples to toilet seats.  

 

My challenge was to those spending $thousands, vs hundreds, on their table setups, and the virtues of exercising a few common-sense tasks in the setup of any turntable, regardless of its cost.

[AudioDoctor]

I’m not sure even you know what it is you’re trying to say. 

[The_K-Man]

7 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

I’m not sure even you know what it is you’re trying to say. 

 

I'm not sure you even have the capability of understanding what I'm saying!

[AudioDoctor]

You may be correct there...

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

I'm not sure you even have the capability of understanding what I'm saying!

AudioDoctor

He can't even seem to understand that there is even a huge difference between the performance of RIAA Phono Preamps, let alone between cheap and nasty TT and Cartridge combinations and a high quality Vinyl set up.

[StephenJK]

47 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

Ahh yes... Audiophiles luuv zeros, lots of them, sometimes separated by commas, after a dollar sign.

 

Whether or not a $30 record should be allowed on a $200-300 TT has nothing to do with the price paid for said TT, yet has everything to do with placement on a solid, level surface, and proper adjustment of aforementioned settings(tracking force, anti-skate, cartridge azimuth, etc.).  

Sorry, didn’t want to get into turntable setup. My thought was that an improperly setup turntable, which it likely will be, can ruin that $30 LP in a few plays. Not the turntable, the setup and lack of adjustment. 
 

Edit - for a full and complete detailed instruction on how to properly setup a turntable some of the points below need to be included.

 

Ensuring cartridge compliance is matched to tonearm,

Cartridge output and loading requirements match phono stage,

Tonearm overhang is within specification,
Cartridge mounting to headshell allows overhang to be to that specification,

Cartridge is installed using precision alignment tools that include overhang measurement and selected geometry,

Cartridge tracking weight is measured with digital device at the LP playing height,

Cartridge azimuth is adjusted with suitable software or hardware tool,

Cartridge tracking weight is verified yet again,

Cartridge alignment is double checked with arc protractor,

Vertical tracking angle is adjusted, but using “ears only”,

You can do stylus rake angle with a microscope but just go with the previous point,

Oh yeah, adjust antiskate if you believe in that sort of thing.
 

And then, let’s not forget about stylus cleaning, alternate RIAA equalization curves, and other alignment points, based on whether you want better sound at the beginning or end or the average play area of your LP.

 

But as I said, I don’t want to get into that here.  This isn’t a turntable forum or I would have mentioned the carbon fiber shims between the cartridge and headshell and having to machine the tonearm mounting plate (after removing the factory anodizing, having it machined and then powder coated) so that the VTA lifter had a full range of adjustment.

 

No, I’m not getting into that here.

 

For the LP people - Clearaudio Innovation Compact, Clearaudio Universal tonearm with upgraded Sixstream Superwire, Clearaudio VTA lifter, Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua cartridge.

 

[The_K-Man]

1 minute ago, SJK said:

Sorry, didn’t want to get into turntable setup. My thought

was that an improperly setup turntable, which it likely will

be, can ruin that $30 LP in a few plays. Not the turntable,

the setup and lack of adjustment. 

 

Please clarify:  Are you referring to a turntable lacking the adjustments themselves, or, a turntable possessing those adjustments, yet never undertaken by its owner, or done incorrectly?

[StephenJK]

35 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

Please clarify:  Are you referring to a turntable lacking the adjustments themselves, or, a turntable possessing those adjustments, yet never undertaken by its owner, or done incorrectly?

Two thoughts - a $200 turntable has no credible adjustments other than right side up. 

 

The other thought, as I have mentioned is that I highly doubt that most turntables were ever setup properly and that giving a poor result. 
 

I would never, ever question anyone who pitched that Dual record changer for a CD player. 

[AudioDoctor]

35 minutes ago, SJK said:

56 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

Two thoughts - a $200 turntable has no credible adjustments other than right side up. 

I laughed good at that one. 

[AudioDoctor]

@k-man my point is that there are ZERO adjustments and futzing needed for a CD player where all those adjustments are necessary for a turntable to even begin to sound decent and not destroy records. If you want the best sound possible you have to set up all the parameters as precisely as possible, clean the record, get rid of static, make sure it’s rotating as precisely as possible, etc...  it’s nearly endless. To play a cd you put it on the platter and press play. 
 

As an analogy, a CD is a Keurig, a Turntable is a French Press. 
 

that makes a turntable inherently more difficult to get good sound out of than a CD player which has zero adjustments.