Lies about vinyl vs digital

[The_K-Man]

1 hour ago, SJK said:

No, I didn't know - it seemed anything but rhetorical, it was definitely interrogative. 

 

And Rumours?  I don't know anything about it other than it's a pop music record that everyone used to own and that they play it a lot in supermarkets.  

 

I'm still not sure what his answer would be as to why Rumours will always be on his playlist.  I know your opinion, but I'm guessing you're not answering for K-Man.  I'm happy for it to forever remain a mystery.

 

If you know how to use your fingers and SCROLL BACK UP through this thread, you will find your answer in post #2456, Millennial.

[fas42]

25 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 This thread is NOT about how great (NOT !) Robert Palmer YouTube videos, OR Shania Twain with low bit rate .aac audio sound through Franks  tiny Laptop speakers.

 

 

Alex, how difficult is it for you to comprehend that when I post a video of some music, that it is an example of a style of music, or mastering, or whatever - and that it's not that the clip sounds fabulous AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT when I check whether it sounds reasonable enough to make a point, hopefully, in a post ... hmmm?

[sandyk]

12 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Alex, how difficult is it for you to comprehend that when I post a video of some music, that it is an example of a style of music, or mastering, or whatever - and that it's not that the clip sounds fabulous AT THAT PRECISE MOMENT when I check whether it sounds reasonable enough to make a point, hopefully, in a post ... hmmm?

 

 It's IRRELEVANT in this particular  topic

[John Dyson]

51 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Lies about vinyl vs digital

 Getting back to the original topic, has anybody been able to compare the Fleetwood Mac Rumours  Vinyl vs. the original CD release ?

 This thread is NOT about how great (NOT !) Robert Palmer YouTube videos, OR Shania Twain with low bit rate .aac audio sound through Franks  tiny Laptop speakers.

 I have attached a Sound Forge 9 screen shot showing how the 24/96 DVD-A audio from the track Dreams is being limited on peaks, and not being heard to it's full potential. 

 

 

Like any of this stuff, it is taking time to make the improvements on the decodes.   It can be frustrating, but there IS improvement being made.  It would also be wonderfully nice to have 55 second snippets from at least 3 of the selections from the album.  I guarantee you with very slight chance of being wrong -- IF I can get a reference copy of the ORIGINAL vinyl album -- doesn't have to be in great condition, just need to hear some elements of the sound, the resulting decodes witll be astounding.

 

The problem with the decoding is all about the corrective EQ, even though I am pretty good at guessing plausible choices.  The actual sound is so helpful.  My basis for decoding without reference is avoiding distortion, smooth apparent frequency spectrum and a good stereo image (hard to do correctly.)

 

To me, from what I can hear, the Rumors album (and the Fleetwood Mac self-titled album to a slightly lesser extent) are worth investing in some vinyl rip time.

 

Perhaps most frustrating is that the newest version of the decoder has far far surpassed even recent previous versions.  I spent some time yesterday following through with some major ideas.  Side effect is now the architecture is applicable to Telcom C4 now, and the complicated part for that is now complete.

 

I am hearing stuff now coming from the decoder is *almost* blowing away the examples previously posted!!!  Reference would allow zeroing in on the artist-intent sound.

 

PS:  I didn't intend to hijack the thread...   However, I WILL work the Rumors issue!!!

 

John

 

 

 

[StephenJK]

21 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

If you know how to use your fingers and SCROLL BACK UP through this thread, you will find your answer in post #2456, Millennial.

Never look back, my friend. Never. Look forward, look beyond, look to the future. 
 

The past is in the past, and that’s where it belongs.

 

Be well.

[lucretius]

47 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Lies about vinyl vs digital

 Getting back to the original topic, has anybody been able to compare the Fleetwood Mac Rumours  Vinyl vs. the original CD release ?

 This thread is NOT about how great (NOT !) Robert Palmer YouTube videos, OR Shania Twain with low bit rate .aac audio sound through Franks  tiny Laptop speakers.

 I have attached a Sound Forge 9 screen shot showing how the 24/96 DVD-A audio from the track Dreams is being limited on peaks, and not being heard to it's full potential. 

 

 

I have this CD https://www.discogs.com/Fleetwood-Mac-Rumours/release/1579942.  There is no clipping on Dreams:

 

 

 

Here are the DR measurements for the CD:

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Analyzed Folder: Fleetwood Mac\Rumours\Rumours_dr.txt
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR         Peak       RMS        Filename                      
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR14       -2.96 dB   -19.89 dB  01 Second Hand News.flac      
DR15       -1.69 dB   -20.09 dB  02 Dreams.flac                
DR14       -5.59 dB   -24.70 dB  03 Never Going Back Again.flac
DR15       -2.16 dB   -19.75 dB  04 Don't Stop.flac            
DR14       -2.35 dB   -18.53 dB  05 Go Your Own Way.flac       
DR15       -9.86 dB   -29.48 dB  06 Songbird.flac              
DR16       -1.80 dB   -22.02 dB  07 The Chain.flac             
DR14       -3.20 dB   -20.26 dB  08 You Make Loving Fun.flac   
DR15       -0.78 dB   -19.73 dB  09 I Don't Want to Know.flac  
DR15       -2.37 dB   -21.74 dB  10 Oh Daddy.flac              
DR15       -5.75 dB   -25.63 dB  11 Gold Dust Woman.flac       
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Number of Files: 11
 Official DR Value: DR15

==============================================================================================

 

 

[fas42]

9 minutes ago, SJK said:

Never look back, my friend. Never. Look forward, look beyond, look to the future. 
 

The past is in the past, and that’s where it belongs.

 

Be well.

 

 

 

 

[fas42]

26 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 It's IRRELEVANT in this particular  topic

 

Alex, you seem to forget that this kicked off from a post by @The_K-Man where Rumours was brought onto the scene; the topic is about what digital can do well compared to vinyl, and the clips are of music which could be difficult to capture on vinyl, because of the style of mastering.

[sandyk]

7 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Alex, you seem to forget that this kicked off from a post by @The_K-Man where Rumours was brought onto the scene; the topic is about what digital can do well compared to vinyl, and the clips are of music which could be difficult to capture on vinyl, because of the style of mastering.

The videos that you keep posting have nothing to do with the title of the thread which is Lies about vinyl vs digital

Furthermore, I have been able to locate some vinyl rips of Fleetwood Mac-Rumours, some of which are from 45RPM Vinyl which should be capable of doing this, and be usable for comparisons with CD.

[fas42]

(sigh) ... ... from OP, " Lie: vinyl suffers from heavy dynamic compression — so why do my LPs display vastly better dynamic power/force? "

 

Answer: Both mediums can do "dynamic power/force", but digital will alway win in a head to head, because of intrinsic limitations to how vinyl works; the grooves can only take so much modulation - the recordings above are ones that would pulverise 99.9% of vinyl playback, in terms of "dynamic power/force".

[John Dyson]

3 minutes ago, fas42 said:

(sigh) ... ... from OP, " Lie: vinyl suffers from heavy dynamic compression — so why do my LPs display vastly better dynamic power/force? "

 

Answer: Both mediums can do "dynamic power/force", but digital will alway win in a head to head, because of intrinsic limitations to how vinyl works; the grooves can only take so much modulation - the recordings above are ones that would pulverise 99.9% of vinyl playback, in terms of "dynamic power/force".

Newer vinyl tends to be more heavily compressed that it used to be.  In the past, the feralA problem didn't exist, and feraA started happening in the CD time frame for quick digital mastering without the time needed to do the DolbyA decoding.  Now, you can sometimes catch feralA disease on vinyl -- the entire mastering process being cheapened.  Who cares? the dynamic range is often clobbered anyway -- really, really bad.  Cannot even do a feralA decode on recent CDs because they are so twisted bad.   Sometimes the compressed materiall is also feralA encoded, but no benefit in decoding already damaged material, right?  I look for early/original vinyl & CD examples, at least before 1993 because they are less likely mismastered.   It seems like one quality pivot point was the 1992/1993 timeframe, when the standards dropped and dynamic rang3e compression increased.

 

Vinyl *can* sound more dynamic and warm, but it is more of a matter of 2nd harmonic distortion, bending of vinyl, necessary compression when the cutter might be overwhelmed, at least some subtle rumble, avoiding the dynamics danger zones for typical consumer cartridges, etc.   Of course, proper mastering is the most critical and basic factor, and REALLY helps, that is we want DECODED material, not just splatted through a simpler filter to make the sound 'tolerable' like often on CDs.    (Typically, vinyl material isn't mastered for a V15type4 or whatever fancy tracking cartridge nowadays, but more like a M75 or very sturdy Stanton cartridge for disk jocky use.)   In the edge case where the good tracking cartridge benefitted, then that is a very nice thing for that listener.

At one radio station, they purchased M91s instead of sturdy cartridge/needle pairs -- lost at least 1-2 needles per week, on a LIGHT week, sometimes 1 or 2 per day!!!

 

John

 

 

[sandyk]

Attached is a link to a 45RPM Vinyl rip in 24/96 which may be able to be used for comparison purposes with the CD versions.

It will need to be downloaded, as the Dropbox player is unable to play .flac files

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mlszjtf4c4tpfyh/02. Fleetwood Mac - Dreams.flac?dl=0

[John Dyson]

2 hours ago, John Dyson said:

A friend just sent me a copy of Rumors in feralA form.  I have played with it for a day or so off and on...   Sure needed decoding...  The material opened up like a flower relative to the mangled ambiance on the source copy. here are some results, and note that I am very busy working on other material.  With a little more work, should be pretty good -- already not bad IMO.  (It does need a little more consideration on the midrange, and also the filter interleave might help a little bit more on the cut 8, where the vocal edginess might be better smoothed out.  There are ZERO heroic measures in these results.

These are snippets -- there IS a little lost in mp3 though.

EDIT:  I can do a LOT more to make the stereo image much more dynamic, but had some decoding issues.  Not sure if it was correct.  These are CONSERVATIVE, and a little more tame.  I'll see what I can do tonight.

EDIT2:  Darn'it...  Things seem to work badly at times.  I just vastly improved the decode.  These are indicative of the general quality, but upcoming decodes are much nicer.

 

John

 

 

 

Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - 03. Never Going Back Again-snippet-dhnrds.mp3 1.69 MB · 3 downloads Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - 04. Don't Stop-snippet-dhnrds.mp3 1.71 MB · 2 downloads Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - 08. You Make Loving Fun-snippet-dhnrds.mp3 1.71 MB · 2 downloads

 

Without a solid reference, I think I have done as good as I can with these examples.   Getting the full stereo image and the response balance to match so that instruments and singers in the right place -- it can be TOUGH to do!!!  Note there is ZERO exotic processing, just DA decoding and a few filters -- all within my avoiding-mastering rules.   You can master the material yourself -- it scares the sh*t out of me!!!

 

The complete album will be available on the review site in 1Hr after this posting...

 

 

Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - 03. Never Going Back Again-snippet-dhnrds.mp3 Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - 04. Don't Stop-snippet-dhnrds.mp3 Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - 08. You Make Loving Fun-snippet-dhnrds.mp3 Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - 09. I Don't Want To Know-snippet-dhnrds.mp3 Fleetwood Mac - Rumours - 01. Second Hand News-snippet-dhnrds.mp3

[sandyk]

 

5 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

Without a solid reference, I think I have done as good as I can with these examples.  

John

 You have a reference with the 45RPM Vinyl Version of Dreams in the post above yours

 

Alex

[John Dyson]

8 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Attached is a link to a 45RPM Vinyl rip in 24/96 which may be able to be used for comparison purposes with the CD versions.

It will need to be downloaded, as the Dropbox player is unable to play .flac files

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mlszjtf4c4tpfyh/02. Fleetwood Mac - Dreams.flac?dl=0

Thanks SO VERY MUCH!!!

 

Something very interesting -- this isn't my ego talking, but I like mine better?   What the hell is going on?   All I did was a careful feral EQ and a small amount of love and care to compensate for small response variations on my decoder.   (small response variations can mess with the stereo image -- so I move a few 0.1dB here or there to get that special sound.)

 

* I just heard a flaw about 2minutes into '02 Dreams', and will look into it.

 

I am uploading the whole recordings to the review repository right now...   I am afraid to post the recording publically though...

 

John

 

[John Dyson]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

John

 You have a reference with the 45RPM Vinyl Version of Dreams in the post above yours

 

Alex

Yea -- thanks again, we passed each other while postingr :-).

I might tune mine a little more mellow, but listen to the difference!!!! 

Dreams should be uploaded by now...

 

John

 

[Ralf11]

are they in the review repository as mp3? or FLAC?

[John Dyson]

22 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

are they in the review repository as mp3? or FLAC?

They are flac, but only CAREFULLY MADE 16 bits/44.1k for now.  I'll make 88.2k/24 available later.  I JUST MIGHT make a few tweaks and re-upload a few select songs, and ask for a choice.   The vinyl sounds so dead, it would give me the ability to do some casual changes.  (It might mess with the stereo image, but give a more conventional sound.)

 

Note that the dynamic range on these is HUGE.   This has more dynamics than Crime of the Century, so might be a little MEAN sounding.   The experimental versions will have -2 in the filenames.   Coming in 15 minutes

 

Both the original and a few -2 versions are uploaded.  Tell me which one you like.  I'll move to the PM group for further discussion.

 

John

 

[The_K-Man]

1 hour ago, SJK said:

Never look back, my friend. Never. Look forward, look beyond, look to the future. 
 

The past is in the past, and that’s where it belongs.

 

Be well.

 

I'm not sure what all that means, but, whatever.

[StephenJK]

2 hours ago, The_K-Man said:

 

If you know how to use your fingers and SCROLL BACK UP through this thread, you will find your answer in post #2456, Millennial.

Born in 1958, my friend. 
 

Be kind.  Be gentle.  Treat with others as you would like to be.  
 

Be well.

[fas42]

37 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

 

 

Vinyl *can* sound more dynamic and warm, but it is more of a matter of 2nd harmonic distortion, bending of vinyl, necessary compression when the cutter might be overwhelmed, at least some subtle rumble, avoiding the dynamics danger zones for typical consumer cartridges, etc.   Of course, proper mastering is the most critical and basic factor, and REALLY helps, that is we want DECODED material, not just splatted through a simpler filter to make the sound 'tolerable' like often on CDs.    (Typically, vinyl material isn't mastered for a V15type4 or whatever fancy tracking cartridge nowadays, but more like a M75 or very sturdy Stanton cartridge for disk jocky use.)   In the edge case where the good tracking cartridge benefitted, then that is a very nice thing for that listener.

At one radio station, they purchased M91s instead of sturdy cartridge/needle pairs -- lost at least 1-2 needles per week, on a LIGHT week, sometimes 1 or 2 per day!!

 

 

 

"Dynamic and warm" is the nature of the recording itself, before the replay chain does its damage - with digital, if those qualities are lost then it's because the added distortion at the time of the reproduction makes it difficult to hear through to what the recording is actually like. I have rarely heard vinyl adding distortion to make it "more pleasant"  - rather, I can usually hear tracking distortion, etc, degrading and blurring the sound.

[The_K-Man]

54 minutes ago, fas42 said:

(sigh) ... ... from OP, " Lie: vinyl suffers from heavy dynamic compression — so why do my LPs display vastly better dynamic power/force? "

 

Answer: Both mediums can do "dynamic power/force", but digital will alway win in a head to head, because of intrinsic limitations to how vinyl works; the grooves can only take so much modulation - the recordings above are ones that would pulverise 99.9% of vinyl playback, in terms of "dynamic power/force".

 

The reason LPs display "vastly better" dynamics is simple:

 

Because their digital counterparts have suffered from artists and labels desire for LOUDNESS over liveliness.  You can't have have both, although you can have varying degrees of both, depending on what serves the song/album.  

 

Thus, digital formats such as CD are unable to fully showcase their potential for accommodating dynamic material - and ignorant consumers - including audiophiles - blame the format! 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

 

[The_K-Man]

7 minutes ago, SJK said:

Born in 1958, my friend. 
 

Be kind.  Be gentle.  Treat with others as you would like to be.  
 

Be well.

 

Well, what you stated about Rumours came off as coming from someone born decades after that album released.  I guess for eight years your junior I have relatively 'old' tastes.  Or perhaps I just have tastes - period.

[The_K-Man]

30 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

are they in the review repository as mp3? or FLAC?

 

23 minutes ago, John Dyson said:

They are flac, but only CAREFULLY MADE 16 bits/44.1k for now.  I'll make 88.2k/24 available later.  I JUST MIGHT make a few tweaks and re-upload a few select songs, and ask for a choice.   The vinyl sounds so dead, it would give me the ability to do some casual changes.  (It might mess with the stereo image, but give a more conventional sound.)

 

Note that the dynamic range on these is HUGE.   This has more dynamics than Crime of the Century, so might be a little MEAN sounding.   The experimental versions will have -2 in the filenames.   Coming in 15 minutes

 

Both the original and a few -2 versions.  Tell me which one you like.  I'll move to the PM group for further discussion.

 

John

 

 

Just remember guys: MP3 does not affect dynamic range - compressors or limiters  in mixing and mastering rooms do.

[John Dyson]

8 minutes ago, The_K-Man said:

 

 

Just remember guys: MP3 does not affect dynamic range - compressors or limiters  in mixing and mastering rooms do.

the biggest mp3 problem that my hearing can detect is temporal resolution.  That is the only thing that I have been able to reliably detect the difference on certain music.   MP3 isn't great, but not quite as bad as it is made out to be.   I prefer opus, but normally only need data compression that everyone is compatible with, so choose mp3.  (Opus has slightly better termporal resolution, and works well at lower bitrates, but I don't care about that.)

* I do get the feeling that I don't prefer MP3 over proper flac, but that is a 'feeling', not a measurement.

 

John