Popular Post GUTB Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 There is a massive proliferation of misinformation regarding vinyl in relation to digital. I realize much of that is just willful ignorance on the part of non-audiophiles / class warfare activists, etc.... however all senior audiophiles seem to know that LPs crush CD and streaming, but if you to get a technical or even theoretical basis for that phenomena by researching it all you find is misinformation about why digital is better. Lie: vinyl suffers from heavy dynamic compression — so why do my LPs display vastly better dynamic power/force? Lie: vinyl has less resolution — macro resolution is greater in my digital that’s true, but why is inner detail and tonal color so much better on vinyl? Lie: vinyl suffers from a lot of distortion — perhaps, but why do my LPs sound more live and lifelike than my digital? So what’s going on here? Could the issue be that these aren’t lies so much as not accounting for awful ADCs and digital mastering techniques? Teresa, Andrei and Ralf11 1 1 1 Link to comment
PeterSt Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 If you don't mind ... I don't see what the "lies" are in your phrases. Example : Is this the lie : Quote Lie: vinyl suffers from a lot of distortion or is this the lie : Quote but why do my LPs sound more live and lifelike than my digital? ? And that of course, how you pose it. Because I don't see lies anywhere to begin with. But another example : Quote so why do my LPs display vastly better dynamic power/force? That could be a lie, yes. Maybe you can change your OP and put it forward a little better (especially for me - haha). semente 1 Lush^3-e Lush^2 Blaxius^2.5 Ethernet^3 HDMI^2 XLR^2 XXHighEnd (developer) Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer) Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer) Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier) Link to comment
Popular Post Audiophile Neuroscience Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 22 minutes ago, GUTB said: Lie: vinyl suffers from heavy dynamic compression — so why do my LPs display vastly better dynamic power/force? Lie: vinyl has less resolution — macro resolution is greater in my digital that’s true, but why is inner detail and tonal color so much better on vinyl? Lie: vinyl suffers from a lot of distortion — perhaps, but why do my LPs sound more live and lifelike than my digital? So what’s going on here? Could it just be that *your* digital rig sucks?? (sorry, couldn't resist) MetalNuts, AudioDoctor, The Computer Audiophile and 7 others 8 1 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Popular Post Blackmorec Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 Hi GUTB, With respect, there’s a very obvious answer to your ‘lies’. Your digital system is inferior to your vinyl system and inferior to current digital SOTA which in my experience can be substantially better than analog in most regards. The problem with most digital systems is noise. Unlike analog, digital noise cannot be heard but has a major deleterious impact on what is heard. Something as mundane as plugging a poorly controlled SMPS into the same mains as a digital system has the potential to rob it of most of its most musical qualities. For the past 40+ years we have been served digital via CDPs, an electro/mechanical device with major sources of electronic noise and mechanical vibration. As good as they could sound, a CDP, with all its noise and vibration will never achieve the best sound from digital. Today the best digital sources are those which play files via emi optimised circuitry with the least amount of processing, optimised power supplies and no mechanical vibration. The other aspect of digital vs. Analog that is important is that digital music files and music streams can be ‘reconditioned’, with retiming, jitter and noise removal etc. Once a digital stream has been cleaned up, it must be protected from further noise contamination. When sources, clean-up processes and signal environment are all uptimized, digital has the potential to knock vinyl into a cocked hat. Most digital systems you’ll hear today are far from optimised, the analog equivalent of playing records on the beach on a windy day. sandyk, mourip, Teresa and 1 other 1 2 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Audiophile Neuroscience Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Blackmorec said: current digital SOTA which in my experience can be substantially better than analog in most regards. +1 IMO it has been that way for many years now. eternaloptimist and esldude 1 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 14 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said: Could it just be that *your* digital rig sucks?? (sorry, couldn't resist) It ain't the rig sucking here. Audiophile Neuroscience and AudioDoctor 1 1 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post adamdea Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 43 minutes ago, GUTB said: There is a massive proliferation of misinformation regarding vinyl in relation to digital. I realize much of that is just willful ignorance on the part of non-audiophiles / class warfare activists, etc.... however all senior audiophiles seem to know that LPs crush CD and streaming, but if you to get a technical or even theoretical basis for that phenomena by researching it all you find is misinformation about why digital is better. Lie: vinyl suffers from heavy dynamic compression — so why do my LPs display vastly better dynamic power/force? Lie: vinyl has less resolution — macro resolution is greater in my digital that’s true, but why is inner detail and tonal color so much better on vinyl? Lie: vinyl suffers from a lot of distortion — perhaps, but why do my LPs sound more live and lifelike than my digital? So what’s going on here? Could the issue be that these aren’t lies so much as not accounting for awful ADCs and digital mastering techniques? As ever your contribution might as well have been scripted as demonstration that being an audiophile is less a hobby than a way of life based on the rigorous pursuit of nonsense, superstition and self regarding vanity. Ajax, Hugo9000, AudioDoctor and 5 others 7 1 You are not a sound quality measurement device Link to comment
Popular Post semente Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 48 minutes ago, GUTB said: There is a massive proliferation of misinformation regarding vinyl in relation to digital. I realize much of that is just willful ignorance on the part of non-audiophiles / class warfare activists, etc.... however all senior audiophiles seem to know that LPs crush CD and streaming, but if you to get a technical or even theoretical basis for that phenomena by researching it all you find is misinformation about why digital is better. Lie: vinyl suffers from heavy dynamic compression — so why do my LPs display vastly better dynamic power/force? Lie: vinyl has less resolution — macro resolution is greater in my digital that’s true, but why is inner detail and tonal color so much better on vinyl? Lie: vinyl suffers from a lot of distortion — perhaps, but why do my LPs sound more live and lifelike than my digital? So what’s going on here? Could the issue be that these aren’t lies so much as not accounting for awful ADCs and digital mastering techniques? This piece may interest you: http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/goodresolutions/page1.html http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/goodresolutions/page2.html Total Noise Level ‘flat’ 20 Hz - 20 kHz A Weighted CD-A -92 dB -94 dB LP -46 dB -61 dB Josh Mound and JediJoker 2 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
MetalNuts Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Back in the 80's, my vinyl system was so sucked and with the debut of CDs and CDP, with the same price, I had a better SQ. Since then, I never looked back at the LP expecting it to improve whereas the digital gears and music are improving day by day. MetalNuts Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 16 minutes ago, adamdea said: As ever your contribution might as well have been scripted as demonstration that being an audiophile is less a hobby than a way of life based on the rigorous pursuit of nonsense, superstition and self regarding vanity. hey, we are all audiophiles, if you are interested in the playback quality of music. Teresa 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Audiophile Neuroscience Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 9 minutes ago, MetalNuts said: Back in the 80's, my vinyl system was so sucked and with the debut of CDs and CDP, with the same price, I had a better SQ. Since then, I never looked back at the LP expecting it to improve whereas the digital gears and music are improving day by day. Yes digital is better than LP. You have the LP of Avatars? MetalNuts 1 Sound Minds Mind Sound Link to comment
Popular Post MetalNuts Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 LP is good for one thing, no DRM and no MQA.? mav52, The Computer Audiophile, NOMBEDES and 5 others 5 3 MetalNuts Link to comment
Le Concombre Masqué Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Blackmorec said: The other aspect of digital vs. Analog that is important is that digital music files and music streams can be ‘reconditioned’, with retiming, jitter and noise removal etc. Once a digital stream has been cleaned up, it must be protected from further noise contamination. What are your recommended means of achieving that ? Add the possibility to eQ and rePhase music streams at marginal costs Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 1 hour ago, semente said: This piece may interest you: http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/goodresolutions/page1.html http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/HFN/goodresolutions/page2.html Total Noise Level ‘flat’ 20 Hz - 20 kHz A Weighted CD-A -92 dB -94 dB LP -46 dB -61 dB You forgot to mention the vast difference in channel separation ! Perhaps we should sic the C.I.A. onto GUTB , as he sure doesn't seem to come from this planet ! verb To cause a guardian or official to attack or pursue a wrongdoer. (rural Southern) He'll sic his dog on trespassers. The Online Slang Dictionary How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
sandyk Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 22 minutes ago, Le Concombre Masqué said: 1 hour ago, Blackmorec said: …….The other aspect of digital vs. Analog that is important is that digital music files and music streams can be ‘reconditioned’, with retiming, jitter and noise removal etc. Once a digital stream has been cleaned up, it must be protected from further noise contamination. Not just with Digital Audio either. This applies just as much to Digital Video, even with uploaded .ts streams from HD TV ! How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file. PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020 Link to comment
semente Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 14 minutes ago, sandyk said: You forgot to mention the vast difference in channel separation ! Indeed. In this page Hi-Fi World explains cartridge measurements: http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/vinyl-lp/70-tests/103-cartridge-tests.html?showall=1 "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
Popular Post 4est Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 1 hour ago, MetalNuts said: Back in the 80's, my vinyl system was so sucked and with the debut of CDs and CDP, with the same price, I had a better SQ. Since then, I never looked back at the LP expecting it to improve whereas the digital gears and music are improving day by day. If your vinyl rig was worse than digital in the 80s, it must have been pretty bad. vmartell22, NOMBEDES, Ralf11 and 2 others 5 Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 2 hours ago, MetalNuts said: Back in the 80's, my vinyl system was so sucked and with the debut of CDs and CDP, with the same price, I had a better SQ. Since then, I never looked back at the LP expecting it to improve whereas the digital gears and music are improving day by day. 46 minutes ago, 4est said: If your vinyl rig was worse than digital in the 80s, it must have been pretty bad. In the early 80's, if you had a typical entry level vinyl rig for people who cared about audio (say Shure or Ortofon cartridge and Dual Turntable), you may have been very favorably impressed by the sound of CD: no surface noise, lots of dynamics (louder than vinyl!), no clicks and pops. But Vinyl actually has gotten better. Now that it is more of a specialty item and considered expensive, the average new disc is much better made and uses better raw material than back in the 70's and 80's. Cutting, mastering, etc are all more precise. Cartridges, turntables, and phono pre's have also improved (yes, I am talking in generalities and am not including "junk" equipment in my assessments, but stuff that is supposed to be good sounding). But, don't get me wrong. I have a turntable I never use and I prefer good digital to analog. It is orders of magnitude better than it once was, even compared to the beginning of this century. MetalNuts, Teresa, d_elm and 1 other 2 2 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post 4est Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 8 minutes ago, firedog said: In the early 80's, if you had a typical entry level vinyl rig for people who cared about audio (say Shure or Ortofon cartridge and Dual Turntable), you may have been very favorably impressed by the sound of CD: no surface noise, lots of dynamics (louder than vinyl!), no clicks and pops. But Vinyl actually has gotten better. Now that it is more of a specialty item and considered expensive, the average new disc is much better made and uses better raw material than back in the 70's and 80's. Cutting, mastering, etc are all more precise. Cartridges, turntables, and phono pre's have also improved (yes, I am talking in generalities and am not including "junk" equipment in my assessments, but stuff that is supposed to be good sounding). But, don't get me wrong. I have a turntable I never use and I prefer good digital to analog. It is orders of magnitude better than it once was, even compared to the beginning of this century. And the entry level CD players that I checked out sounded worse still IMO. To this day, I will often take a mediocre vinyl rig over a mediocre CD player. The caveat is that that vinyl rig would be typically a lot more expensive than it's digital counter part. davide256 and Teresa 2 Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 3 hours ago, GUTB said: There is a massive proliferation of misinformation regarding vinyl in relation to digital. I realize much of that is just willful ignorance on the part of non-audiophiles / class warfare activists, etc.... however all senior audiophiles seem to know that LPs crush CD and streaming, but if you to get a technical or even theoretical basis for that phenomena by researching it all you find is misinformation about why digital is better. Lie: vinyl suffers from heavy dynamic compression — so why do my LPs display vastly better dynamic power/force? Lie: vinyl has less resolution — macro resolution is greater in my digital that’s true, but why is inner detail and tonal color so much better on vinyl? Lie: vinyl suffers from a lot of distortion — perhaps, but why do my LPs sound more live and lifelike than my digital? So what’s going on here? Could the issue be that these aren’t lies so much as not accounting for awful ADCs and digital mastering techniques? I'd bet you lots of money micro/inner detail is better on my digital system than virtually any vinyl system. In fact, compared to some pretty expensive vinyl playback I've heard, it isn't even close. Vinyl does suffer from compression. In mastering they even compress the tracks so extreme frequencies and dynamics won't overwhelm the vinyl playback. Vinyl does suffer from a lot of distortion - by definition. Do you actually think going from a metal disc to pressing a vinyl disc to playback with a stylus running through a groove in the plastic doesn't add distortion? Your LPs sound more "live and lifelike" - to you, and not necessarily to others: Because you find the added distortion the recording and playback system gives you euphonic. That's fine. Just don't say it isn't adding distortion. Get a top notch ADC and record your vinyl in hires on a very good vinyl rig/system that includes quality amp and speakers . Do unsighted playback on that same rig with an equally capable digital source. The digital recording will playback with all those "special", supposedly unique to vinyl qualities you say you prefer, and it's unlikely you will be able to consistently pick out the vinyl playback vs. the digital. If you can, it will be with extreme difficulty. This has been shown to be true multiple times with experienced listeners in testing. So what you like about vinyl playback is what it adds to the recording, not the accuracy of the recording and playback medium itself, or anything lacking in the accuracy and "lifelike" qualities of digital. semente, d_elm, Zakus and 5 others 6 2 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
firedog Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, 4est said: And the entry level CD players that I checked out sounded worse still IMO. To this day, I will often take a poor mediocre vinyl rig over a mediocre CD player. The caveat is that that vinyl rig would be typically a lot more expensive than it's digital counter part. I'm not arguing with what you hear(d). I'm just saying that for a lot of people, CD was an upgrade in SQ from vinyl. It's very fashionable these days to say "I never thought CD sounded good". Well, some of the people who say that are full of it. They liked the sound and started buying CDs instead of vinyl. Some of them over time started to change their idea of what sounded better, yes. Others didn't. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
4est Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 20 minutes ago, firedog said: I'm not arguing with what you hear(d). I'm just saying that for a lot of people, CD was an upgrade in SQ from vinyl. It's very fashionable these days to say "I never thought CD sounded good". Well, some of the people who say that are full of it. They liked the sound and started buying CDs instead of vinyl. Some of them over time started to change their idea of what sounded better, yes. Others didn't. Thank you for the vote of confidence... I am not looking to get into it with you about this. It is obvious from your posts over the year(s) that you greatly prefer digital. So be it and who am I to argue. That entry level turntable you describe was one such as found in any home. Typically they were set up poorly and in awful circumstances.. Shoot, I've even seen a turntable on top of a speaker. My simple point was that the first affordable digital players I heard sounded like shit. I was into audio back then, and had friends who worked in the business. I also spent a lot of time building and listening to other systems, especially those of two close friends. It was an interesting learning experience to share systems and insights back when I had the time to really chase audio. Ajax 1 Forrest: Win10 i9 9900KS/GTX1060 HQPlayer4>Win10 NAA DSD>Pavel's DSC2.6>Bent Audio TAP> Parasound JC1>"Naked" Quad ESL63/Tannoy PS350B subs<100Hz Link to comment
marce Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 3 hours ago, GUTB said: There is a massive proliferation of misinformation regarding vinyl in relation to digital. I realize much of that is just willful ignorance on the part of non-audiophiles / class warfare activists, etc.... however all senior audiophiles seem to know that LPs crush CD and streaming, but if you to get a technical or even theoretical basis for that phenomena by researching it all you find is misinformation about why digital is better. Lie: vinyl suffers from heavy dynamic compression — so why do my LPs display vastly better dynamic power/force? Lie: vinyl has less resolution — macro resolution is greater in my digital that’s true, but why is inner detail and tonal color so much better on vinyl? Lie: vinyl suffers from a lot of distortion — perhaps, but why do my LPs sound more live and lifelike than my digital? So what’s going on here? Could the issue be that these aren’t lies so much as not accounting for awful ADCs and digital mastering techniques? A prime example of the rubbish spouted by senior (lol) audiophiles, its just repeating the same mantras and totally ignoring reality and facts... How do you become a senior audiophile by the way.... lucretius 1 Link to comment
Nordkapp Posted July 4, 2018 Share Posted July 4, 2018 Vinyl is not user friendly nor convenient. Therefore, I'm out and always have been. That stuff is for my parents. But, great topic of discussion. Link to comment
Popular Post Fokus Posted July 4, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 4, 2018 There are lots of verifiable reasons why LP (or tape, for the matter) sounds different from digital (or from tape, for the matter). There are also lots of verifiable reasons why this LP sound is preferred by (some) people (some) of the time over digital. That still does not make LP objectively superior. The contrary is true. semente, tmtomh, Ajax and 1 other 4 Link to comment
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