Lies about vinyl vs digital

[Solstice380]

I think it’s the “wow and flutter” that GUTB likes.  Or maybe he just wasn’t getting enough attention in his other threads so he dug up a dead horse to get everyone going.   Or maybe he’s Chris’s paid shill here to just keep things lively.  Wait, I think someone suggested that one before.  ?

[kumakuma]

On July 21, 2018 at 8:11 PM, GUTB said:

 

I just wanted to thank you for alerting me to the existence of this great album. I had to import it in from Europe but it's exceptionally good-sounding CD. I've ordered a few more of these Turtle Records releases.

 

You can also find DSD versions of Turtle Records releases here:

 

https://turtlerecords.nativedsd.com

[GUTB]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

You can also find DSD versions of Turtle Records releases here:

 

https://turtlerecords.nativedsd.com

 

Wow good find.

[kumakuma]

17 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

Wow good find.

 

I also like Tony Overwater's albums on Turtle Records such as OP and Up Close.

 

BTW, this site is a great way to find out what's available in HR:

 

http://www.findhdmusic.com 

 

You might also like some of the albums available from Sound Liaison:

 

https://www.soundliaison.com

 

 

[semente]

8 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I also like Tony Overwater's albums on Turtle Records such as OP and Up Close.

 

BTW, this site is a great way to find out what's available in HR:

 

http://www.findhdmusic.com 

 

You might also like some of the albums available from Sound Liaison:

 

https://www.soundliaison.com

 

 

 

The problem I have with these audiophile lables is that I can't find anything worth listening to in their catalogues. In fact most music reminds me of overly-loud boring demos at hi-fi shows...

[Screwdriver]

I didn't read through all of this....but I'll add my two cents.

 

I think vinyl sounds better to me. I grew up in the analog and live concert world and music to me is more about feeling and experience. Vinyl sounds like the music I grew up with. It fires up old memories in my mind going back to when had first heard a band.

 

Digital may be more accurate, or technically superior, but I could care less. And while I listen to digital 80% of the time, it's when I really want to get into the music and spark my memories, it will involve a record. Nothing sounds like listening to Houses of the Holy with the same disc I bought new in the 70's.....

[semente]

11 minutes ago, Screwdriver said:

I didn't read through all of this....but I'll add my two cents.

 

I think vinyl sounds better to me. I grew up in the analog and live concert world and music to me is more about feeling and experience. Vinyl sounds like the music I grew up with. It fires up old memories in my mind going back to when had first heard a band.

 

Digital may be more accurate, or technically superior, but I could care less. And while I listen to digital 80% of the time, it's when I really want to get into the music and spark my memories, it will involve a record. Nothing sounds like listening to Houses of the Holy with the same disc I bought new in the 70's.....

 

I agree that there may be a generational factor driving preference for analogue and for vinyl in particular.

In one word: nostalgia.

 

Besides, there's plenty of living proof in all forums around the world that accuracy is not for everyone.

[kumakuma]

1 hour ago, semente said:

 

The problem I have with these audiophile lables is that I can't find anything worth listening to in their catalogues. In fact most music reminds me of overly-loud boring demos at hi-fi shows...

　

I find it to be hit and miss but there are some gems out there.

 

A few that come immediately to mind:

 

https://www.soundliaison.com/index.php/352-ruud-breuls-simon-rigter-quintet-wild-man-blues

http://www.hdtracks.com/sessions-from-the-17th-ward-binaural-281216

http://www.hdtracks.com/stripped-322590

http://www.hdtracks.com/binaural/wall-down-home-blues

 

 

 

[Screwdriver]

18 minutes ago, semente said:

 

I agree that there may be a generational factor driving preference for analogue and for vinyl in particular.

In one word: nostalgia.

 

Besides, there's plenty of living proof in all forums around the world that accuracy is not for everyone.

That is my point...accuracy needs a point of reference. If your trying to duplicate a sound you like...records or digital would be your reference.

 

I have been to hundreds of live shows....Arena Rock, Punk Clubs, Jazz and Classical at places like the Hollywood Bowl. I have yet to hear any system duplicate that exactly. I even got to demo the Infinity IRS's at Infinity in Northridge back in the 80's....everything colors music. Beyond sitting in front of the studio console while a record is being mixed or being at a concert that a record was recorded from....there is no way to be 100% accurate.

[GUTB]

My new vinyl rig crushes my digital, and I don’t know what to do in order to move forward with it.

 

Today, my vinyl of the same albums I have digital copies are much better. The key qualitative factor is dynamic performance; my vinyl displays dynamic swings of greater magnitude and speed/resolution. My digital sounds weakened, narrowed, compressed, lessened or more polite in comparison. I need to figure this out but I don’t know what to do except try other DACs. Could a DDC effect this?

[Ralf11]

this has been listed before, but I'll add a couple of things on (tho some factors can overlap)...

 

1. galv. isolation - optical best; but WiFi is fine

2. big buffers

3. good clock with low phase noise ("close-in")

4. Quality DAC that has high immunity to Jitter

5. quality power supply with low noise

 

there are other things beyond the above that might matter (they at least make sense electronically, even if your recordings, gear or ears makes the quantitative improvement likelihood low)

 

- DSD

- RAM

etc.

[fas42]

8 hours ago, semente said:

 

The problem I have with these audiophile lables is that I can't find anything worth listening to in their catalogues. In fact most music reminds me of overly-loud boring demos at hi-fi shows...

 

This reminds of having other audiophiles put on a recording, which immediately strikes me as being turgid, and as limp as wilted lettuce ... have a wander over - yep, it's an 'audiophile' effort ...

[fas42]

7 hours ago, Screwdriver said:

That is my point...accuracy needs a point of reference. If your trying to duplicate a sound you like...records or digital would be your reference.

 

I have been to hundreds of live shows....Arena Rock, Punk Clubs, Jazz and Classical at places like the Hollywood Bowl. I have yet to hear any system duplicate that exactly. I even got to demo the Infinity IRS's at Infinity in Northridge back in the 80's....everything colors music. Beyond sitting in front of the studio console while a record is being mixed or being at a concert that a record was recorded from....there is no way to be 100% accurate.

 

The good news is that one can get the sound to be 100% subjectively there; the bad news is that there are very few easy ways of doing this - but things are getting better.

 

Vinyl gets the 'niceness' of listening to music more easily done; digital has always had some of the precision areas under far better control - digital can get both the niceness, and the precision, but it still is not trivial to tick both boxes.

[fas42]

5 hours ago, GUTB said:

My new vinyl rig crushes my digital, and I don’t know what to do in order to move forward with it.

 

Today, my vinyl of the same albums I have digital copies are much better. The key qualitative factor is dynamic performance; my vinyl displays dynamic swings of greater magnitude and speed/resolution. My digital sounds weakened, narrowed, compressed, lessened or more polite in comparison. I need to figure this out but I don’t know what to do except try other DACs. Could a DDC effect this?

 

Yep, the same ol' digital blandness bogeyman, ready to squash the vitality of one's recordings - this type of distortion seems to be always hovering at the edges, and jumps in as soon as one takes one's eye off the ball ...

 

How to fix it? Ummm, how long is a piece of string ... another DAC may fix it, or the problem may get worse - the only process that I know does the job is to work through each part of the chain, do solid investigation of what influences and weaknesses may be present - and keep doing this until full SQ is restored.

[Rexp]

17 hours ago, GUTB said:

My new vinyl rig crushes my digital, and I don’t know what to do in order to move forward with it.

 

Today, my vinyl of the same albums I have digital copies are much better. The key qualitative factor is dynamic performance; my vinyl displays dynamic swings of greater magnitude and speed/resolution. My digital sounds weakened, narrowed, compressed, lessened or more polite in comparison. I need to figure this out but I don’t know what to do except try other DACs. Could a DDC effect this?

I heard a system at a show last week where the Audio Reseach CD9+Nagra HD DAC seemed to match the Kronos Turntable, would need home audition to confirm it. At the other end of the budget scale I've been enjoying Tidal via UAPP app 

[hifitommy]

for the most part, i prefer the more alive, vibrant, and detail rich sound of LPs and master tape.  SACD, DVDA, and hi rez digital can come VERY close but given equal money spent on vinyl and digital, at the very low end, favors cd.  as you progress up past $200, the scale tips in favor of vinyl.  

 

for some unknown reason, as different as phono cartridges sound different, they most always sound right when properly adjusted.

 

i HAVE heard some VERY good sounding downloads on high end systems, peter mc grath demoing his recordings on magico or wilson audio speakers with either constellation ss or VTL tubed electronics in such stores as The Audio Salon in Santa Monica California.

 

the fact that even new music, like my recently purchased jack white LP of boarding house reach are easily accessible, makes a good case for buying vinyl.

 

i don't subscribe that there are LIES in there anywhere, the best digital sounds about as bood as the best analog, likewise for the best tubs and solid state.

 

...regards...tr

[fas42]

6 hours ago, hifitommy said:

for some unknown reason, as different as phono cartridges sound different, they most always sound right when properly adjusted.

 

 

An extremely simple reason for that - when properly adjusted their mechanical characteristics and alignment have been optimised, so that the least distortion is added to the sound. You're hearing more of the record, and less of the cartridge - you're getting closer to what the microphones heard.

 

Historically, it's always been harder for digital to do "alive, vibrant, and detail rich sound" - and that's because the manufacturers of the components are slow learners  ... we'll get there in the end ... .

[PeterSt]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

it's always been harder for digital to do "alive, vibrant, and detail rich sound" - and that's because the manufacturers of the components are slow learners  ... we'll get there in the end ... .

 

OK. And what should we manufacturers learn (about), you reckon ?

[semente]

7 hours ago, fas42 said:

Historically, it's always been harder for digital to do "alive, vibrant, and detail rich sound" - and that's because the manufacturers of the components are slow learners

 

The fact that the large majority of the immense catalogue of distortions produced by the vinyl playback system is signal/music correlated is almost certainly what makes vinyl "alive, vibrant, and detail rich sound" to some people.

 

Those signal/music correlated distortions become more intrusive when amplified and transduced by more accurate systems; but you still have to know what to listen for...and not "enjoy" it.

 

But it's definitely not more "realistic".

[Ralf11]

surrealistic

[fas42]

11 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

OK. And what should we manufacturers learn (about), you reckon ?

 

You, of the ones who are pushing into the bleeding edge of things have probably got one of the best handles on the factors. dCS lately is another of the winners, by all reports.

 

Main aspect of course is that the standard spec's, measurements count for little. That listening is still the best evaluation tool,  in the face of not having better measurement methods obviously available.

 

Two factors have stood out for me: it always takes ages for digital to settle down, stabilise for best sound - days, even weeks - I used to hate having to switch off everything for a sizable period in the early experimenting, I knew it would take days to recover decent sound again; and the other is resistance to interference effects, a tiny hint of electrical activity of any type in the area can be enough to clobber the subjective SQ - for best sound I always have to shut down absolutely everything that I can control, nearby.

 

Both of these aspects are pretty irritating, and just silly; better engineering should be able to take care of both. Of course things are much better now, there is constant improvement - but until I can turn on from cold, and get close to full quality in 5 to 10 minutes, in the middle of a sea of noisy electrical activity, I wouldn't be happy with the status quo.

[fas42]

9 hours ago, semente said:

 

The fact that the large majority of the immense catalogue of distortions produced by the vinyl playback system is signal/music correlated is almost certainly what makes vinyl "alive, vibrant, and detail rich sound" to some people.

 

Those signal/music correlated distortions become more intrusive when amplified and transduced by more accurate systems; but you still have to know what to listen for...and not "enjoy" it.

 

But it's definitely not more "realistic".

 

In the early days after I first got convincing sound from a digital setup I did as much listening of "other stuff" as I could, just to see where everyone else was. And visited the home of the chap who probably had the most ambitious vinyl setup in the Sydney - Goldmund Reference TT, the best Audio Research gear, classic Infinity speakers; and these components had also been significantly modded. This delivered all the qualities of competent sound, on his carefully chosen LPs - the experience matched ...

 

This is what digital at a good peak delivers also - the realism factor is overwhelming, you can "hear" the humanity of the music making - because all the cues for such are indeed captured in the recordings everyone has. All that's required is for the rig to be sufficiently sorted, and then those qualities emerge.

[semente]

In this video you can hear/compare the different between a CD and a vinyl recorded made from the same digital file:

 

 

[GUTB]

2 hours ago, semente said:

In this video you can hear/compare the different between a CD and a vinyl recorded made from the same digital file:

 

 

 

So....vinyl is intrinsically better?

 

Wow, the truth FINALLY COMES OUT.

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, GUTB said:

So....vinyl is intrinsically better?

 

Wow, the truth FINALLY COMES OUT.

Wow indeed, but not in the way you think.