Lies about vinyl vs digital

[marce]

7 hours ago, GUTB said:

If you needed to have a license to be an audiophile you wouldn't have these kids buying $100 Chinese DACs hooked up to $200 powered speakers placed on a computer desk and calling themselves audiophiles. The reason why is because the licensing body would be made up of experienced audiophiles who know how to get good sound and who can prove it through a large body of work in the audiophile space. There may be some "engineers" who don't know the least bit about good sound but the majority of the body would set forth the licensing guidelines.

No engineers or scientists, or even audiologists...

The blind leading the blind, where only myths abound.

You could call yourselves the ALS, audiophile Luddite society.

[wgscott]

or the current EPA

[The_K-Man]

21 hours ago, amir57bs said:

I think speaking about LP vs CD is more complex than we think. many thing in studios and record process are important in final result.

I have heard very good CD (better than some bad LP records) and i also have heard very bad CDs.

I also have heard very Good LPs (better than best CD records) and i also have heard very bad LPs.

 

if you consider the average result overally i think old LP records are far better than modern digital  records.

 

 

The difference you're likely hearing, for the umpteenth time, is the mastering of each.  I own several vinyl LPs who's remastered CD counterpart(not the initial CD that released long ago, after the LP) was SLAMMED AGAINST 0dBfs so bad it was impossible to set a decent listening volume, and hard to listen to more than 1-2 minutes of each song before feeling the urge to move on to the next track!

[AudioDoctor]

9 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

C'mon, sh*t happens : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951

 

The crash was caused primarily by the aircraft's automated reaction, which was triggered by a faulty radio altimeter. This caused the autothrottle to decrease the engine power to idle during approach. The crew noticed this too late to take appropriate action to increase the thrust and recover the aircraft before it stalled and crashed.^[10] Boeing has since issued a bulletin to remind pilots of all 737 series and BBJ aircraft of the importance of monitoring airspeed and altitude, advising against the use of autopilot or autothrottle while landing in cases of radio altimeter discrepancies.^[11]

 

The difference is, this was pilot error and they knew about the system. In the Lion Air crash, Boeing made a change and didn't tell anyone about it...  I can feel the lawyers rushing to cash in.

[fas42]

In the case of the airline industry it's mighty easy to 'measure' what's truly important - that all the passengers get to their destination safely. Apart from that there are myriad differences in just about every other area: how smooth the ride was, how quiet, how much fuel was used, how edible the in-flight meal was, the amount of leg room, the colour of the ambient lighting, etc, etc, etc ...

 

In audio I also concern myself with the primary need - is the sound competent, in that I can't detect any audible anomaly that allows me to be aware of the playback system as the source of the sound. All differences after that are way down in the pecking order ...

[hifitommy]

that is the way i help my system evolve.  my next remedy will include a Rythmik subwoofer.

[Nordkapp]

 

[rn701]

I recorded a bunch of albums to 16/44.1 digital. When I play the digital files back using Roon or JRiver they sound exactly like they sound when playing them from vinyl.

 

Bad recordings and pressings still sound bad and good recordings and pressings still sound good.

 

(Some that were in bad shape sound better because they have most of the snap crackle and pop repaired by software.)

[Ralf11]

OK, I now have a needle drop of Bob Dylan's Desire album from MFSL vinyl, and the MFSL Redbook layer of the same (and... the original CD).  All on the iMac "packed up and ready t go" (as a different lyricist put it).

 

Based on the preferred Audiophool listening "testing" (sighted, EtOH enhanced, and not levels matched) the vinylized one sounds... well, vinyly.  That is to say unclean (if not dirty), humpy (if not warm), and Itchy & Scratchy (If not Snap, Crackle, and Popish).

[Nordkapp]

Did you watch that video @Ralf11? Pretty neat I thought. Glad I never did vinyl...

[Ralf11]

Oh yeh, I 'did' vinyl.  It was the only way to hear recorded music (few reel to reels existed for consumers).

 

Later, it was better than the alternatives - 8-track...

[Nordkapp]

Haha. 8 track......

[ajay556]

On 7/4/2018 at 1:12 AM, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Could it just be that *your* digital rig sucks??

(sorry, couldn't resist)

I think everyone here has heard music at audio shops and audio shows. So stating someone's audio sucks is pointless. 

[ajay556]

I think its safe to say new music is recorded digitally and probably playing it in vinyl, CD or file based will not make much difference in sound quality just what one's preference is. But if its old music vinyl hands down will sound better. Moreover, if there is a 45 rpm version it will definitely sound better than CD or file based.

[firedog]

18 minutes ago, ajay556 said:

I think its safe to say new music is recorded digitally and probably playing it in vinyl, CD or file based will not make much difference in sound quality just what one's preference is. But if its old music vinyl hands down will sound better. Moreover, if there is a 45 rpm version it will definitely sound better than CD or file based.

You are entitled to your opinion/taste. Not everyone agrees with “hands down”, “better”, or necessarily even at all.

[Ralf11]

6 minutes ago, firedog said:

You are entitled to your opinion/taste. Not everyone agrees with “hands down”, “better”, or necessarily even at all.

 

"massive"

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

54 minutes ago, ajay556 said:

I think everyone here has heard music at audio shops and audio shows. So stating someone's audio sucks is pointless. 

 

Agreed. It was said 'tongue in cheek'.😀

[hifitommy]

i agree that the LP, when recorded to CD via a tascam cdr very closely, rivals the LP sound.  playing the vinyl vs the cdr copy does reveal differences but is very satisfying.   we made a dub of Midnight Sugar (Cisco 45rpm) and the results were quite gratifying.  

 

for some reason, a commercial cd and the LP of the same music nearly always falls in favor of the LP.  my first cd was brothers in arms and i was quite happy with the gorgeous sound on the Magnavox cdp that i bought from Target of all places for$140.  the Mag was a VERY good sounding piece, better than most of what was on the market at the time.  although the bass was superior on my friend's Panasonic with BASH, the Mag had imaging and soundstaging that the Pana could not approach.  

 

THEN i got a copy of that music on a $1 cutout price just for funsies.  i wasn't prepared for the grossly superior sound on the vinyl. it reinforced my decision to retain my record collection and just add cd to the mix.  i benefited handily from the foolish dumping of vinyl done by those who were fooled by the slogan PERFECT SOUND FOREVER.  

 

i could follow any one instrument in the orchestra with full clarity and extension.  something that RBCD is not capable of.  

 

...hifitommy

[sandyk]

3 minutes ago, hifitommy said:

could follow any one instrument in the orchestra with full clarity and extension.  something that RBCD is not capable of.  

 

...hifitommy

 

Then the quality of your Digital section is in need of a MASSIVE upgrade.

[fas42]

22 minutes ago, hifitommy said:

i could follow any one instrument in the orchestra with full clarity and extension.  something that RBCD is not capable of.  

 

...hifitommy

 

Not a MASSIVE upgrade, but a sorting out of the rig is required - very typical of below par digital is that it's hard for human hearing to separate the often present interference hash injected via the playback chain, from the actual recording content. If the procedure is properly done, then all that detail lost from our awareness emerges, and it's trivially easy to follow any of the musical lines in the whole - of any track of a CD.

[Hugo9000]

51 minutes ago, hifitommy said:

i could follow any one instrument in the orchestra with full clarity and extension.  something that RBCD is not capable of.  

 

 

45 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Then the quality of your Digital section is in need of a MASSIVE upgrade.

Well, unless it's a specialist baroque orchestra with one instrument to a part, you really shouldn't be able to distinguish any individual violin from the ensemble of first violins in a full orchestra, for example!  If you can, it must be one of the most awful and undisciplined orchestras in the world!  

 

If, however, hifitommy means any one instrumental line in the score, that's trivially easy* with well-recorded RBCD unless the orchestration by the composer was particularly muddy.  Ravel's orchestrations tended to be extremely transparent, so his works such as Daphnis et Chloë are good tests of clarity of reproduction by a sound system.

 

At any rate, I agree with Alex here.

 

 

*Well, some exaggeration by saying "trivially easy" to distinguish even one instrumental line in a score lol.  One of the ways we distinguish the same note as played by different instruments is the initial attack, another is from the overtones present.  In a typical romantic work for orchestra, overtones by one instrument group will often be masked to some extent by the presence of other similar instruments, especially if they are doubling the line.  Also, if you lose your way following the line after the attack, the sustained part can be similar enough that trained musicians (unless familiar with the score, or reading along with the performance).

[Thomas savage]

If your into audio and enjoy records that are more likely to be mastered for your home hifi and can deal with the buggering about I think vinyl is a excellent choice and you get to go record hunting in some fantastic shops that are full of music lovers . 

 

The only exception here imo would be classical where the benefits of digital are more regularly exploited. Although I don’t have a TT ( can’t be trusted with something so needy and delicate lol ) I can see the sense in having a good DAC for streaming and combining that with a TT. 

 

Best of both with all the holistic advantages of both formats too.  

[hifitommy]

I know what I hear and it's in agreement with other veteran listeners with a litany of high end components.  RBCD has it's distinct limits and LP allows us to settle into the Music at hand and is more convincing  and satisfying just as is live music.  

 

Go back to DBT while I go LIE to myself.  Arguing the point is superfluous.  

 

Tom savage, I believe you made the choice for a good reason and I know how rattling it is to snag off a stylus on a prized cartridge.

[Ralf11]

Did Panasonic just release a new version of the 1200 turntable??

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, hifitommy said:

RBCD has it's distinct limits and LP allows us to settle into the Music at hand

 

 RBCD also has it's minor limitations which is why there are the hi res formats and DSD.

 However, unless you have a vinyl recording such as perhaps a Half Speed Mastered disc ,which may have frequency content as high as 35kHz when new, your typical Vinyl recording does not have this frequency extension and will lose a little of it's HF performance every time it is played. It will then have a HF capability of less than the 22kHZ of a CD which does not change, as well as a higher surface noise level. There will also be some colouration due to tone arm resonances etc.

Many Vinyl lovers also have TTs and cartridges etc. that cost WAY more than the digital components that they own ,which is more often than not a CD player worth only a couple of a hundred dollars.

In every other parameter, a CD easily beats a Vinyl set up. The S/N is much higher, the channel separation is vastly greater, and the Dynamic range is also considerably greater. 

Perhaps you prefer the larger than life (diffused) centre image from Vinyl which is due to a channel separation rarely exceeding 35dB ? .