Does a DAC need a pre-amp

[Cornan]

1 minute ago, STC said:

Anyone tried experimenting with Mytek's digital and analogue's volume? 

 

In my case, I am using Mytek (the old 192 DSD) as DAC/ preamp often setting the volume in analogue mode. I don't think I could easily identify one to be better than the other. 

 

I have tried both analogue and digital volume control on my Brooklyn DAC. Analogue is warmer sounding with extended depth and a bit more "alive". Digital volume sounds more clear in the treble area but a bit flatter/"duller" in my setup. I prefer analogue volume, but would be great to be able to select a little bit of both. I wouldn't mind the improved treble.

[GUTB]

2 minutes ago, STC said:

Anyone tried experimenting with Mytek's digital and analogue's volume? 

 

In my case, I am using Mytek (the old 192 DSD) as DAC/ preamp often setting the volume in analogue mode. I don't think I could easily identify one to be better than the other. 

 

I think the Mytek uses digital volume control of the Sabre and doesn’t have an analog mode.

 

 

[Cornan]

Just now, GUTB said:

 

I think the Mytek uses digital volume control of the Sabre and doesn’t have an analog mode.

 

 

 

Wrong. Mytek Brooklyn DAC have both digital and analogue volume control.

[STC]

4 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

I think the Mytek uses digital volume control of the Sabre and doesn’t have an analog mode.

 

 

 

I am still using Mytek and still playing around with analogue and digital volume control but I too wondered how the analogue control worked since I did't see any resistors in the volume control path. But my knowledge in electronics is just slightly higher than zero.  

[esldude]

9 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

Wrong. Mytek Brooklyn DAC have both digital and analogue volume control.

His batting average is the same at all times.  This is just one more swing and a miss among many.  

[esldude]

23 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

You say that with a complete lack of irony, don’t you?

Of course, no irony is evident.  

[sandyk]

7 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

Wrong. Mytek Brooklyn DAC have both digital and analogue volume control.

 

 Is this the one with the optional 12V PSU ?

If it is, have you tried a very low noise12V PSU with it ?

I noticed that the one I looked at said a "Worldwide PSU"

Is it SMPS, and if it is have you tried the earthing trick"?

[GUTB]

4 minutes ago, esldude said:

Of course, no irony is evident.  

 

You too don’t bother reading the post counter?

 

Anyway I said I don’t THINK the Mytek has an analog volume control, I may of thought WRONG. But looking at the picture of the 192 DSD, I wonder what they’re using because I don’t see any resistors or ladders — just curious, mind you. When I know something for a fact and you spread misinformation about it be sure I will correct you at such a time.

[sandyk]

8 minutes ago, esldude said:

His batting average is the same at all times.  This is just one more swing and a miss among many.  

 

 Yes.

It's in the same league as suggesting putting Analogue Out through a freaking A-D Converter.(no matter how good it is !)

ANY added conversions can only result in some degradation.

That's not Rocket Science either. See what George has to say on  the subject.

[STC]

29 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I have tried both analogue and digital volume control on my Brooklyn DAC. Analogue is warmer sounding with extended depth and a bit more "alive". Digital volume sounds more clear in the treble area but a bit flatter/"duller" in my setup. I prefer analogue volume, but would be great to be able to select a little bit of both. I wouldn't mind the improved treble.

 

 

Initially, I thought the analogue was better but sometimes the DAC would reset to the default volume (analogue?) and I didn't notice anything different. I can't remeber when was the last time I checked the volume.  

 

BTW, maybe GUTB was partly correct. 

 

Quote

 

"Volume Control

There are several methods of volume control availab

le:

Analog –

The output level is controlled by a programmable

analog fader. This also allows independent level co

ntrol

over the main output or headphone output.

Digital –

The output level is controlled digitally inside the

converter chip. This may measure better than analog

control,

but usually doesn't sound as good. This does not al

low for

independent level control of the main and headphone

outputs.

Bypass –

Relay bypass of all faders for the cleanest output

path possible."

 

 

 

So maybe not a real analogue volume. Someone can explain what's the difference between resistor and programmable analogue volume control?

 

Thanx.

[GUTB]

Okay so, there’s this thing called a “digital potentiometer” — a little IC package that costs a few dollars that does a stepped resistor ladder. Is this what the Mytek uses?

[gmgraves]

9 hours ago, esldude said:

I thought it was posted unless it was wiped out in the forum upgrade.  There are a couple items I probably haven't updated in that list. I don't have it in my signature anymore.  Evaluating the worth of someone's ideas by looking at their gear is not exactly great anyway.  

 

I use Soundlabs speakers, and Wyred4Sound CLASS D amps.  So I know you just quit listening. 

Recently I use a couple different ADC/DAC recording interfaces for the preamp.  Most recently some Antelope audio gear. 

 

 

SoundLab Speakers are not just good speakers, they're GREAT speakers. I'd put a pair of Majestic 945PX against the highest price Magicos or the Wilson Audio Alexandria XLF any day of the week. For natural sound, they cannot be beat. Not even the Lovely Martin-Logan Neoliths (at twice the price of the 945PX's can match them for shear top-to-bottom cohesiveness and absolute realism). I envy you. I have to be content with a pair of Martin-Logan Vistas (not that they aren't excellent speakers, mind you, it's just....)  

[Cornan]

36 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Is this the one with the optional 12V PSU ?

If it is, have you tried a very low noise12V PSU with it ?

I noticed that the one I looked at said a "Worldwide PSU"

Is it SMPS, and if it is have you tried the earthing trick"?

 

The Brooklyn DACs internal SMPS is already grounded as another CA member have reported. I have tried external but found the internal a rad better. I am looking for a better valuable option, but are in no hurry.

[gmgraves]

5 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Okay so, there’s this thing called a “digital potentiometer” — a little IC package that costs a few dollars that does a stepped resistor ladder. Is this what the Mytek uses?

 

I dunno, but keep in mind that a digital potentiometer, while eliminating problems with impedance mismatch, must convert analog to digital and then back again. And we argue for hundreds of posts about the merits of various commercial DACs and now some are advocating digital volume control chips which do a do a double conversion? 

[gmgraves]

10 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

No. You said that I am misinterpreting my experience. My "experience" said that passive preamps did not sound as good as active preamps. I never said anything about how they measure. How they measure is meaningless in regards to what I said.

 

I don't think that I can fit any more angels on the head of this particular pin. I'm through with this "debate". See you at our next encounter. 

[MetalNuts]

I have tried this before when I used my Esoteric D-07 which has a volume control and by pass the pre-amp section of the integrated amplifier.  It sounded very clean but cannot get used to it but that is my preference only may not be the same for others.

[STC]

10 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Okay so, there’s this thing called a “digital potentiometer” — a little IC package that costs a few dollars that does a stepped resistor ladder. Is this what the Mytek uses?

 

So that was not really an anlogue volume control? 

 

OT, I was using Supratek Chardonnay preamp with Mytek before letting go the preamp. I still think the few dollars multiple times A-D-A converting volume control of Mytek performed more accurately than the Supratek or Classe preamp. Actually the Classe was more or less the same as Mytek.

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, STC said:

So maybe not a real analogue volume. Someone can explain what's the difference between resistor and programmable analogue volume control?

 

I do not know the exact construction of Brooklyn´s analogue volume control, but I would be extremely surpriced if it is not a analogue volume control at all. I can just verify that Brooklyn have an option to change between digital and analogue volume control in the settings. Not which kind of analogue volume control they use.

 

Here is what I found Google about it:

Quote

The volume control in the Brooklyn offers two options; a 1dB step analog attenuator, separate for main out and headphones, or a 1dB step digital 32-bit attenuator with a "bypass" option (bypasses all faders) for a purer path (in electronic terms). There are also 4 internal -6db gain jumpers to mate the Brooklyn's output level to your amp.
Read more at https://www.audiostream.com/content/mytek-brooklyn-dac-0#JlTTvdbL6azLQZjw.99

 

[sandyk]

33 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Okay so, there’s this thing called a “digital potentiometer” — a little IC package that costs a few dollars that does a stepped resistor ladder. Is this what the Mytek uses?

 Perhaps you are thinking of something like the PGA2310PA I.C.

 It was used as part of the design of the attached magazine article page.

 

 

[STC]

9 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I do not know the exact construction of Brooklyn´s analogue volume control, but I would be extremely surpriced if it is not a analogue volume control at all. I can just verify that Brooklyn have an option to change between digital and analogue volume control in the settings. Not which kind of analogue volume control they use.

 

Here is what I found Google about it:

 

 

 

Looking inside Mytek 192 and Brooklyn, I don't see much difference in the hardware implementation.  Anyway, both DACs implement 1dB step increament.  IMO, any volume control that turns continuosly is not analogue. Perhaps, psuedo-analogue volume control. 

[Speed Racer]

52 minutes ago, gmgraves said:

 

I don't think that I can fit any more angels on the head of this particular pin. I'm through with this "debate". See you at our next encounter. 

 

You start out with one argument and then pivot to one we weren't even having. You must be trying to fit angels on the head of a pin..... 

[firedog]

2 hours ago, STC said:

Anyone tried experimenting with Mytek's digital and analogue's volume? 

 

In my case, I am using Mytek (the old 192 DSD) as DAC/ preamp often setting the volume in analogue mode. I don't think I could easily identify one to be better than the other. 

Mytek (MIchal) themselves said the digital one measured better , but the analog one sounded better. 

[STC]

2 minutes ago, firedog said:

Mytek (MIchal) themselves said the digital one measured better , but the analog one sounded better. 

 

That was the reason I chose digital(for accuracy) but sometime the DAC resets itself to analogue. The difference is impossible to tell via sound coming out my speakers. I think Archimago did a measurement of Mytek's volume and he too thought the digital is better in all aspects.

 

BTW, is this even a rel analogue volume control?

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, STC said:

That was the reason I chose digital(for accuracy) but sometime the DAC resets itself to analogue. The difference is impossible to tell via sound coming out my speakers. I think Archimago did a measurement of Mytek's volume and he too thought the digital is better in all aspects.

 

So far I have only evaluated the digital- vs analogue volume control on the Brooklyn DAC via my Fostex TH900 balanced headphones. I recently merged my speaker setup together with my headphone rig and will see if it that opinion holds true with speakers. 

 

On a side note there where actually one time that I did prefer the digital volume over analogue. It lasted while I had the DC- output of my floating SMPS powering my ISO Regen grounded. Removing that grounding improved SQ (possible leakage) and made me choose the analogue volume control again. Please note that I am NOT saying you have any of these issues. Only telling my own experience since it was related to the volume control. It could support the fact that the digital volume control measures better though?

[mansr]

4 hours ago, gmgraves said:

I dunno, but keep in mind that a digital potentiometer, while eliminating problems with impedance mismatch, must convert analog to digital and then back again. And we argue for hundreds of posts about the merits of various commercial DACs and now some are advocating digital volume control chips which do a do a double conversion? 

That's not what a digital potentiometer is. A digital potentiometer is simply a digitally controlled variable resistor. Here's an example of one: http://www.analog.com/en/products/digital-to-analog-converters/digital-potentiometers/ad5142a.html