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Does a DAC need a pre-amp


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33 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

No. You said that I am misinterpreting my experience. My "experience" said that passive preamps did not sound as good as active preamps. I never said anything about how they measure. How they measure is meaningless in regards to what I said.

 

Like I said, we were talking at cross purposes. 

George

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24 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Time to keep it real. By far the largest source of distortion are the speakers. Distortion is a facet of audio life, and the audiophile will get nowhere fast if he worries overmuch about that as a spec. IMD is evil and should be minimized. But distortion is often euphonic; that is why it’s common knowledge that a quality class A tube line stage is best for a preamp. It’ll smooth digital artifacts, trick your brain with spatial cues, and tweak the signal with to provide all sorts of other audible illusions (increased dynamics, image solidity, definition, etc). All of that in addition to buffering and impedance control tasks it does.

 

A fine analog preamp is an essential part of a quality audio system.

 

As a matter of fact, the parts in the BAT REX aren’t just for show. They do the things outlined above. They were carefully voiced through a master designer’s development process, constantly assessed by ear, and then stablaized into a production form. Dropping a REX into any of you guys’ systems would almost certainly have a dramatic improvement. The belief system in digital attenuation is really just a way to protect egos. Time to break through those barriers.

You are talking about a euphonic coloration.  That is fine, and many do prefer it.  That doesn't mean your particular preference is automatically an improvement dropped into any system.  Nor does it follow automatically that a system can only be quality if it has this preferred coloration in it. 

 

Digital attenuation is superior if all you want is precise volume control.  If you want to buffer it with a euphonic circuit digital attenuation is still superior for controlling volume without unwanted side effects.  

 

Colorations are a preference and therefore none can be universal.  I hear S.E.T.s and even hear why some people prefer them.  Not my preference.  I prefer the sound of push-pull triodes for playback.  When recording I prefer not to have either coloration interfering with what is getting recorded.  I think most tube pre-amps are misguided in design, and should be built like mini power amps for a better sound according to my preferences.  Still that is a preference for a minor coloration. 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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9 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

esl, how big is the room for those Soundlabs?

Long and narrow.  12 ft x 20 feet.  A friend has some in a wider shorter room with taller ceilings.  He is using some Bel Canto Reference monos on his.  

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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19 hours ago, gradier said:

I am playing my music collection (ALAC files) through JRiver and listening via an IFI IDAC2 and M-Audio M-38 powered monitors. Right now, I have to use the mouse on the computer to control volume (the IDA2 does not have  volume control for the RCA OUTS). Is this a scenario where I would benefit from having a pre-amp? If it had volume control, that would be a possible benefit, but my real question is this: Is there any advantage from the point of view of sound to adding a preamp to the chain between the DAC and the powered speakers?

I would say no.  The IDAC 2 has rather a low output impedance meaning it will not be bothered driving the signal to your powered speakers.  This is the purest most likely highest fidelity for your gear.  If you wanted a certain type of sound like a tubed coloration (which can sound delicious) then that would be different.  

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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i like my dac plugged into my integrated mcintosh...too bad i can't play in this discussion, but when i didn't have an integrated, i always preferred direct connect to amp....i was surprised how much CLEAN and BETTER it sounded once i took the preamps out, but they were relatively cheap preamps (bob carver and cambridge audio).  I also have used marantz avrs as a preamp.  I did like this for purposes of "sub out" that my mcintosh didn't have and it also was great for doing audyssey EQ.

 

Unfortunately i have to agree with both sides (grin).

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18 hours ago, gradier said:

I am playing my music collection (ALAC files) through JRiver and listening via an IFI IDAC2 and M-Audio M-38 powered monitors. Right now, I have to use the mouse on the computer to control volume (the IDA2 does not have  volume control for the RCA OUTS). Is this a scenario where I would benefit from having a pre-amp? If it had volume control, that would be a possible benefit, but my real question is this: Is there any advantage from the point of view of sound to adding a preamp to the chain between the DAC and the powered speakers?

Depends. Cheap pre-amps really aren't worth buying. Something like a Burson Conductor V2 (integrated DAC/pre)  for your solution may be a  better bet where you get a better DAC and quality pre circuitry in one package. You can also buy DAC's with electronic volume control, but I've never used electronic volume control where I didn't have "oops" moments of blasting sound at 100db because the software reset. WIth an analog control, your equipment ( and your hearing) is better protected against destructive accidents.

Regards,

Dave

 

Audio system

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37 minutes ago, esldude said:

I thought it was posted unless it was wiped out in the forum upgrade.  There are a couple items I probably haven't updated in that list. I don't have it in my signature anymore.  Evaluating the worth of someone's ideas by looking at their gear is not exactly great anyway.  

 

I use Soundlabs speakers, and Wyred4Sound CLASS D amps.  So I know you just quit listening. 

Recently I use a couple different ADC/DAC recording interfaces for the preamp.  Most recently some Antelope audio gear. 

 

 

So you’ve never tried an actual analog preamp? How can you make these claims then?

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1 hour ago, Speed Racer said:

I could put a system together with very low distortion numbers that sounds like crap. I can put a system together with much higher distortion numbers that sounds sublime. 

In which case they aren't measuring the correct things.

Perhaps partly because we still don't always know what to look for ?

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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11 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Class D amps? Yuk.....

Yes.

But Dennis luvs 'em !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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A quality analog preamp is essential — if good sound is a requirement. Digital audio isn’t audio at all. Real sound has all sorts of natural artifacts and distortions, and our brain processes all of that input in different ways. Thinking you’ve achieved perfection because you can manipulate audio file bit depth prior to D/A is just crazy.

 

Do you ever sit in front of your speakers and ask yourself:

"How come the soundstage never goes beyond the outer edge of my speakers?"

"Why can’t I pinpoint sounds?"

"Why do drums lack explosive force?"

"Why do some things sound like modulated tones and not real instruments?"

"Why can’t I perceive depth?"

"Why do I get tired of listening after 30 minutes?"

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22 minutes ago, davide256 said:

You can also buy DAC's with electronic volume control, but I've never used electronic volume control where I didn't have "oops" moments of blasting sound at 100db because the software reset. WIth an analog control, your equipment ( and your hearing) is better protected against destructive accidents.

Yes, this is my number one gripe against software digital volume controls.  Those oops moments do happen now and again. 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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1 minute ago, GUTB said:

A quality analog preamp is essential — if good sound is a requirement. Digital audio isn’t audio at all. Real sound has all sorts of natural artifacts and distortions, and our brain processes all of that input in different ways. Thinking you’ve achieved perfection because you can manipulate audio file bit depth prior to D/A is just crazy.

 

Do you ever sit in front of your speakers and ask yourself:

"How come the soundstage never goes beyond the outer edge of my speakers?"

No

1 minute ago, GUTB said:

"Why can’t I pinpoint sounds?"

No question as I can pinpoint sounds.

1 minute ago, GUTB said:

"Why do drums lack explosive force?"

Not a question I have.  

1 minute ago, GUTB said:

"Why do some things sound like modulated tones and not real instruments?"

If that happens it is the recording I find.  

1 minute ago, GUTB said:

"Why can’t I perceive depth?"

What makes you think I can't?

1 minute ago, GUTB said:

"Why do I get tired of listening after 30 minutes?"

Usually because of over compressed recordings.  Good recordings I can listen to for hours and do. 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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35 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

So you’ve never tried an actual analog preamp? How can you make these claims then?

I never said I never tried an analog preamp.  I have even designed and made my own from scratch.  So that is how I make these claims.  Gee how many times when I disagree with what 'sounds' best someone assumes you haven't heard different.  An old tired ploy.

 

A preamp conventionally provides an appropriate load for sources, switches between those sources, provides gain as required for sources and buffers those sources from having to deal with long cables if they aren't up to it.  They also provide volume control.

 

Volume control is easy, digital is better with the least number of ill effects from altering volume as long as the changes aren't overly large. 

 

With digital sources you are feeding a DAC.  If that DAC has a good enough analog output section you don't need to buffer it with a preamp.  It doesn't need it.  Additional un-needed buffering will increase distortion or may color the sound.  If you like the coloration good.  If not, you have no need for an analog pre-amp.  

 

For people with multiple sources some of which are analog one of the best things they could do is have a DAC/preamp, and combine it with a quality ADC for analog inputs.  This can do a much better job of transparently buffering and isolating source components from the power amp input.  It isn't popular with a certain audiophile segment.  A pity too as it could improve the sound of systems if it were more commonly done. 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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27 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Yes.

But Dennis luvs 'em !

That is only because they power the Soundlabs I have better than other amps that I have heard connected to them.  Better being sound better and don't fall short on power. 

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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13 minutes ago, esldude said:

For people with multiple sources some of which are analog one of the best things they could do is have a DAC/preamp, and combine it with a quality ADC for analog inputs.  This can do a much better job of transparently buffering and isolating source components from the power amp input.

And you can apply DSP room correction to all sources.

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11 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Digital audio isn’t audio at all.

Wow, what are you doing on a Computer Audiophile forum then?

 

41 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Do you ever sit in front of your speakers and ask yourself:

"How come the soundstage never goes beyond the outer edge of my speakers?"

"Why can’t I pinpoint sounds?"

"Why do drums lack explosive force?"

"Why do some things sound like modulated tones and not real instruments?"

"Why can’t I perceive depth?"

"Why do I get tired of listening after 30 minutes?"

 

No to all of these.

 

My soundstage extends well beyond my speakers and into the adjacent rooms on good recordings. I rarely hear sounds directly from my speakers. I can pinpoint individual voices in a large choir, individual violins in a large orchestra. Live rock concerts sound to me like I'm there, surrounded by the audience. I hear well the dimensions of the space of the performance when properly recorded. The piano sounds very realistic to me, and I'm a piano player and have one in my living room. Bass extends to around 20Hz in a usable way without a subwoofer. The sound is 'organic', for a lack of a better word. My listening sessions usually last 3-4 hours, and I don't get tired of the system, ever. I don't have a single tube in it (I did before), and I don't have a preamp, though I still own a few. I use DSP and a digital volume control. How did I do on your quiz?

 

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8 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Wow, what are you doing on a Computer Audiophile forum then?

 

 

No to all of these.

 

My soundstage extends well beyond my speakers and into the adjacent rooms on good recordings. I rarely hear sounds directly from my speakers. I can pinpoint individual voices in a large choir, individual violins in a large orchestra. Live rock concerts sound to me like I'm there, surrounded by the audience. I hear well the dimensions of the space of the performance when properly recorded. The piano sounds very realistic to me, and I'm a piano player and have one in my living room. Bass extends to around 20Hz in a usable way without a subwoofer. The sound is 'organic', for a lack of a better word. My listening sessions usually last 3-4 hours, and I don't get tired of the system, ever. I don't have a single tube in it (I did before), and I don't have a preamp, though I still own a few. I use DSP and a digital volume control. How did I do on your quiz?

 

 

Why these un-truths? Even if you were running Magicos, Wilsons or Focal Utopias you wouldn’t get performance like that. Are you running full scale $50k horns through your Aleph? Some sort of near-field trick?

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2 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

I have a preamp that is passive, has a JFET buffer, and has a tube gain stage. I have listened to all three extensively and massively prefer the tube gain stage setting. It is very easy to A/B/C the preamp. But it is in long term listening that I really prefer the tube gain stage.

I have the same one and massively prefer the JFET buffer.....

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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