Router Enhancement

[michaelD]

Got a tip from Bricasti the other day to try some vibration control under a router.  He used Still Points - I'm a Nordost user (TC Sort Kones ) so I gave it a try.  I never really thought about that but now that he mentioned it I needed to try it out.  So I put three of them under my router and boy did it make a difference!  I would also say that streaming Tidal had the most impact but even tracks that are stored locally on a NAS sounded better.  What was better?  Imaging, tightness of the bass and placement of instruments were all more solid.  Also the little nuisances were just more engaging.  Give it a try its quick and hear for yourself. 

[davide256]

Routers are purely digital devices and have no analog functionality, hence no leverage for still-points to improve. The improvement you describe is not in line with how digital normally improves, sounds more like an accidental change for the better in room acoustics/speaker positioning.

[michaelD]

Dave - spoken like a person that dismisses suggestions because of your understanding of audio.  As you may or may not know there is a lot that may not make sense or fit in to a proper box yet can be heard.   I would suggest that you try it first then form an opinion not before.  Once you do that then let us know what you hear or don't that would be useful input.

[Cebolla]

On 11/10/2017 at 5:15 PM, michaelD said:

Got a tip from Bricasti the other day to try some vibration control under a router.

Oh my, I hope that was not one of those heavily involved in developing the Briscati Design M1 with Network Player option -  I fear for its users.

[davide256]

4 hours ago, michaelD said:

Dave - spoken like a person that dismisses suggestions because of your understanding of audio.  As you may or may not know there is a lot that may not make sense or fit in to a proper box yet can be heard.   I would suggest that you try it first then form an opinion not before.  Once you do that then let us know what you hear or don't that would be useful input.

All I detect is a high BS factor that will waste others money on still points for the wrong gear... my ethics don't allow me to stay quiet  in those cases.

[MikeyFresh]

On 11/10/2017 at 8:29 PM, davide256 said:

Routers are purely digital devices and have no analog functionality,

 

That has absolutely no bearing on the efficacy of Stillpoints, or Symposium Rollerblocks, or indeed any product or arrangement that changes the way mechanical energy is dissipated. That mechanical energy can be external airborne, or internally generated.

 

"Digital" is one of the areas most improved through the use of products or means by which vibration, and resonance are reduced, eliminated, or altered to a more benign frequency.

 

Please don't bother with a verbal counter attack, you've already stated clearly that you have no first hand experience with these products, but others of us do for many years, and we know the sonic benefits they bring.

 

Your BS meter needs a full re-calibration, there is nothing perfect about "digital" that makes it immune to vibration and resonance. Quite the opposite actually.

 

[Speed Racer]

 

[davide256]

42 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Thanks Speedracer, amusing for what I scanned through. There is something to be  said for mechanical isolaters in the following order of priority

 

1. Physical transports ( disc players, vinyl or digital)

2. preamps

3. amplifiers

 

disc players suffer the worst because any external vibration can affect the "carrier frequency" of the disk rotation, by injecting the external vibration into signal pickup

preamps can suffer board component vibration which for  analog amplification can be perceivable

amps can suffer same but because the input voltage level has been pre-amplified, this is very hard to perceive and amp components are generally more massive so require higher vibration levels to have a like effect. It will be interesting to see if this becomes more of a challenge with the lightweight class D amps.

 

No need to spend a lot for vibration isolator's unless whats on them is heavy. Mostly what you need an isolator for is to block  surface borne low bass frequencies from traveling into your gear. Small wood cones are fine for light gear,  metal becomes necessary for heavier gear. The basic principle is to reduce the point of contact to your gear so that low bass frequencies don't have a big enough contact point to easily traverse

 

Can't say that isolater's for interconnects make sense... if they help, that tells me the cable has construction issues... nothing should be "humming to the music" with a cable.

I can see where isolater blocks for speaker wire might make sense, its possible that you might get an EMF interaction at moderate to high voltage going across a concrete floor... you are solving a different problem there, electrical vs mechanical interference.

 

 

With pure digital, its all computer tech,  that why so many of us who have  vinyl rigs are willing to pursue it...far fewer gremlins. I've tried isoblocks under DAC's, NAS's, streamers, didn't matter.  Now better power supplies, higher precision MOBO's, electrically quiet MOBO components... these keep making digital better

 

[MikeyFresh]

5 hours ago, davide256 said:

1. Physical transports ( disc players, vinyl or digital)

2. preamps

3. amplifiers

 

 

Maybe this too:

 

4. Anything using clock signals/circuits that oscillate

 

There are known negative effects (phase noise) caused/increased by external or internal vibration. I'm not suggesting for one minute that circuit designers don't take vibration into account, they do, as well as temperature and other parameters. But everything is built to a price point, right?

 

So maybe the OP's router is able to do it's job in a more electrically quiet/precise fashion while sitting on Sort Cones. That wouldn't be so surprising.

 

Something like Stillpoints, Rollerblocks, or Sort Cones do definitely improve the sound of a DAC for instance, just try it, it's not a tiny or difficult to listen for difference. I do agree the effect is often comparatively larger on physical disc spinners.

 

The whole cost/benefit question is for each individual to assess, it's tough to quantify sound quality changes to $ spent. Everyone's wallet is different, as is their baseline system performance.

 

So one person might experience more of a perceived benefit than another, but that doesn't mean using vibration control products on a router can't possibly improve network audio performance.

 

 

 

 

[wgscott]

On 11/10/2017 at 9:15 AM, michaelD said:

Also the little nuisances were just more engaging.  

 

You have small children?

[Tecnik1]

Well I wouldn't rush out and spend that kind of money on still point but I had some left over feet and bases so I tried it along with some weight ( sand, rice, shot mixture I use) on top of the router since routers don't weight that much and yes it tightened up the soundstage a bit and slightly improved the over SQ and tonal balance.

 

After a while all the little things we do add up to alot.

 

Thanks for the tip and happy listening to all.

[Tecnik1]

Router,s also need to run off a LPS and be grounded for optimal performance , this tip just added to the list of router enhancement tricks.

[michaelD]

1 hour ago, Tecnik1 said:

Router,s also need to run off a LPS and be grounded for optimal performance , this tip just added to the list of router enhancement tricks.

Yes I totally agree on the grounding.  Before I put Sort Kones under the router I did have a grounding wire connected to one port that went directly to the Nordost QKore 6 unit I have.  I would say both had a similar impact on the sound.  I also think that putting some weight on the unit would be helpful but need to find a way to do that without blocking the vents.

[Tecnik1]

I use the Entreq boxes on my system grounding the router, switch, preamp,dac,server,amp to great effect.

[michaelD]

5 hours ago, Tecnik1 said:

I use the Entreq boxes on my system grounding the router, switch, preamp,dac,server,amp to great effect.

Totally agree. 

[sandyk]

On ‎15‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 6:36 AM, davide256 said:

All I detect is a high BS factor that will waste others money on still points for the wrong gear... my ethics don't allow me to stay quiet  in those cases.

 

BS Factor ? 

Some capacitors for example, are vibration sensitive. (microphonic) This is especially true of larger ceramic types.

 Xtals as used in Xtal oscillators are also affected by vibration and should be isolated from vibration as much as possible.

Even some physically large electrolytic capacitors are affected by vibration and sound better when suitably dampened.

 

Abstract:
Very often, actual, measured levels of vibration-induced phase noise in signal generation equipment are significantly higher than predicted.
 In many cases, this is because the frequency sensitivity of the oscillator or oscillator resonator to vibration was assumed to be the sole  source of the degradation. As improvements in oscillator output signal static phase noise and vibration sensitivity have been realized, the effects of vibration in non-oscillator components and assemblies have become more dominant and cannot be ignored.
Primary contributors to vibration-induced signal phase modulation include coaxial cables and cable connectors, narrowband filters, and enclosure mechanical resonances and non-linearities. Accurate measurement of vibration-induced, signal spectral degradation is often difficult due to the influence of both the measurement environment and test apparatus. In addition, isolating and eliminating the cause of out-of-spec hardware performance is time consuming and expensive. This paper will describe potential sources of vibration-induced signal spectral degradation and methods for obtaining and verifying adequately low vibration sensitivity in non-oscillator hardware.
      
 Published in:  Frequency Control Symposium, 2007 Joint with the 21st European Frequency and Time Forum. IEEE International

 

See also:

https://product.tdk.com/en/contact/faq/31_singing_capacitors_piezoelectric_effect.pdf

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/128892/quantifying-the-piezoelectric-effect-of-ceramic-capacitors

[Ralf11]

how does vibration affect a digital signal?  and if it does, what level is needed to do so?

 

* that is the fly in the ointment

[sandyk]

36 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

how does vibration affect a digital signal?  and if it does, what level is needed to do so?

 

* that is the fly in the ointment

 

Jitter .

 "Google is your friend"

[plissken]

Tidal was sounding a bit thin and veiled. I just sent them still points to house all their server racks on. You're welcome everyone.

[sandyk]

9 minutes ago, plissken said:

Tidal was sounding a bit thin and veiled. I just sent them still points to house all their server racks on. You're welcome everyone.

 

I hope that you still have enough money left over to fund your BS challenges to those you don't agree with ?

(>90% of C.A. members most likely)

[Tecnik1]

Can you send me some still points plissken my system is sounding thin now as well.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, Tecnik1 said:

Can you send me some still points plissken my system is sounding thin now as well.

 

Sure will. As soon as I reverse engineer Machine Dynamica's Teleportation Tweak.

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

Jitter .

 "Google is your friend"

 

apparently it is not yours

 

Besides confusing a mechanical vibration with analog electronics, you have conflated both with a digital signal.

 

Now without a glib know-nothing reply can you explain how jitter is introduced in a router???

[plissken]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

I hope that you still have enough money left over to fund your BS challenges to those you don't agree with ?

(>90% of C.A. members most likely)

 

You can't actually be in disagreement with people that are 100% incorrect. Just so you know... You can only be FACTUAL.

[sandyk]

58 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

apparently it is not yours

 

Besides confusing a mechanical vibration with analog electronics, you have conflated both with a digital signal.

 

Now without a glib know-nothing reply can you explain how jitter is introduced in a router???

 

 Do more research yourself.

 I have no desire to play your stupid games Mr. TROLL !

 BYE !