Router Enhancement

[wgscott]

21 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Does anyone else want to explain how to induce jitter in a digital signal passing thru a router using acoustical vibrations? 

 

Where can I find a router that uses acoustical vibrations?

[Tecnik1]

I don't believe there is much else one can do to improve a router from whats been covered so far other then having a good Electrical Engineer open one up and see what can be improved upon and Im sure their is. Before I retired my Electrical Engineer did all this for me.

[plissken]

11 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

Where can I find a router that uses acoustical vibrations?

 

This technically fits the description:

[Ralf11]

brings back some bad memories of grad. school...

 

but it is not a switch (!!)

[MikeyFresh]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Besides confusing a mechanical vibration with analog electronics, you have conflated both with a digital signal.

 

Now without a glib know-nothing reply can you explain how jitter is introduced in a router???

 

 Do more research yourself.

 I have no desire to play your stupid games Mr. TROLL !

 BYE !

 

 

 

Another great example of the Ignore Member function working very well for me, I wouldn't have seen @Ralf11s inaccurate and intentionally confrontational BS at all if another member hadn't quoted it.

 

I fail to see where @sandyk is at all "confused", his post and the reference cited look very clear to me, if I were he I might now use this thread in building the ignore member list.

 

 

[Ralf11]

if you believe what he said, you don't understand the physical universe

[davide256]

14 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

BS Factor ? 

Some capacitors for example, are vibration sensitive. (microphonic) This is especially true of larger ceramic types.

 Xtals as used in Xtal oscillators are also affected by vibration and should be isolated from vibration as much as possible.

Even some physically large electrolytic capacitors are affected by vibration and sound better when suitably dampened.

 

Abstract:
Very often, actual, measured levels of vibration-induced phase noise in signal generation equipment are significantly higher than predicted.
 In many cases, this is because the frequency sensitivity of the oscillator or oscillator resonator to vibration was assumed to be the sole  source of the degradation. As improvements in oscillator output signal static phase noise and vibration sensitivity have been realized, the effects of vibration in non-oscillator components and assemblies have become more dominant and cannot be ignored.
Primary contributors to vibration-induced signal phase modulation include coaxial cables and cable connectors, narrowband filters, and enclosure mechanical resonances and non-linearities. Accurate measurement of vibration-induced, signal spectral degradation is often difficult due to the influence of both the measurement environment and test apparatus. In addition, isolating and eliminating the cause of out-of-spec hardware performance is time consuming and expensive. This paper will describe potential sources of vibration-induced signal spectral degradation and methods for obtaining and verifying adequately low vibration sensitivity in non-oscillator hardware.
      
 Published in:  Frequency Control Symposium, 2007 Joint with the 21st European Frequency and Time Forum. IEEE International

 

See also:

https://product.tdk.com/en/contact/faq/31_singing_capacitors_piezoelectric_effect.pdf

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/128892/quantifying-the-piezoelectric-effect-of-ceramic-capacitors

Doesn't sound like you are trained in digital electronics and information transmission. My career was in data transmission and included helping to build the US  Internet in the late 90's.  The papers  named have relevance for analog digital transmission which  occurs outside of packet/frame data switches.  Data transmission uses frames or packets when traveling through routers/ switch networks; these data blocks have random (bounded) arrival times  between source and destination with binary transmission success results based on checksum... got there intact or didn't get there. The  relevant factors for network  transmission are frame/packet loss and transit latency. With an adequate buffer  at the receiver end, good speed, and a network path that's not congested or errored, your playback should sound no different regardless of whether the source transmitter is in your house or on the other side of the continent. Excessive packet/frame jitter on a network path  can cause block playback discontinuity ( buffer empty timeout delay, stutter)  isn't otherwise injected into timing conversion.

[jabbr]

10 hours ago, wgscott said:

 

Where can I find a router that uses acoustical vibrations?

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1149

[plissken]

8 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

Another great example of the Ignore Member function working very well for me, I wouldn't have seen @Ralf11s inaccurate and intentionally confrontational BS at all if another member hadn't quoted it.

 

I fail to see where @sandyk is at all "confused", his post and the reference cited look very clear to me, if I were he I might now use this thread in building the ignore member list.

 

 

 

You fail because you lack understanding.

[MikeyFresh]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

You fail because you lack understanding.

 

That too is inaccurate, and by the tone of it, suggests that you by comparison are omniscient? No.

[plissken]

31 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

That too is inaccurate, and by the tone of it, suggests that you by comparison are omniscient? No.

No, by comparison I've been educated both by the book and by experience.

 

My industry credentials include Cisco: CCNA, CCENT, CCNP. Microsoft MSCE (NT3.5, 4.0, 2000, 2003, 2012). I also spent 7 years designing and installing live and post production suites (all before Cisco/MS) including setting up render farms. Everything from $20,000 to ~ $5,000,000.

 

What is your background  for your (in)accurate statements?

 

If I sound harsh it's because I'm done with people that don't know jack, don't understand jack, won't put any $$ where their mouths are. You're a dime a dozen around here.

 

 

[MikeyFresh]

15 minutes ago, plissken said:

If I sound harsh it's because I'm done with people that don't know jack, don't understand jack,

 

Right, apparently you are omniscient then (all-knowing), including what I know and don't know, and what my background/credentials are or are not.

 

If you are so done with it all, then just move along from a thread like this. Alas, you can't, because your sole purpose is to thread crap topics like this to death, simultaneously mocking others with extreme sarcasm and invoking your merry band of trolls to jump in fast while the flaming is good and hot.

 

I don't suggest for one second that you have no knowledge, why would you throw that same accusation at me and various others? What do you really know about us? Next to nothing.

 

Welcome to my Ignore list.

 

 

[Speed Racer]

This guy @MikeyFresh keeps doing other people favors. He thinks he is hurting people by putting them on his ignore list. Like he is wielding some kind of weapon. 

[plissken]

3 hours ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

Right, apparently you are omniscient then (all-knowing), including what I know and don't know, and what my background/credentials are or are not.

 

If you are so done with it all, then just move along from a thread like this. Alas, you can't, because your sole purpose is to thread crap topics like this to death, simultaneously mocking others with extreme sarcasm and invoking your merry band of trolls to jump in fast while the flaming is good and hot.

 

I don't suggest for one second that you have no knowledge, why would you throw that same accusation at me and various others? What do you really know about us? Next to nothing.

 

Welcome to my Ignore list.

 

 

 

I'm basing my responses to you on the fact your postings are showing your lack of fundamental knowledge.

It's better to be quiet than to speak up and prove you don't know what you are talking about.

[Ralf11]

6 hours ago, jabbr said:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1149

 

 

that's a funny one - we are moving towards neural networks tho, aren't we?

[plissken]

3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

that's a funny one - we are moving towards neural networks tho, aren't we?

 

That's a high lag but high throughput method when you attach a TB or storage. It lacks error correction. Has to be UDP *undeliverable pigeon*

[davide256]

12 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

I'm basing my responses to you on the fact your postings are showing your lack of fundamental knowledge.

It's better to be quiet than to speak up and prove you don't know what you are talking about.

Reminds me of the "wiccans" on Agon. While I enjoy Agon, there are quite a few there who practice mysticism  vs rational  deduction for finding audio improvements. Not an approach that is received well on a site like CA whose core base is computer literate individuals.

[Ralf11]

There is a bigger issue here than might appear on the surface, and it goes far beyond HiFi or audio.

 

Note what happened, step by step:

1. someone was aware of a FAQ or maybe we could call it a White Paper on singing capacitors.  That's good.  The phenomenon exists where a passive device can produce an audible sound, a vibration.

2. This got altered in his mind to the reverse effect: where a vibration can alter an electronic signal - an analog signal.  This is small, may be negligible but does exist and would cause a type of noise.  This effect too is well-known.

3. The fatal error was to take the above effect and apply it to a digital device (router) which deals solely with digital signals.

 

Now, perhaps if the noise level became large enough, it could possibly flip some bits.  This seems implausible to me, but EEE's may know better.  Even if it did, it seem implausible that the checksum would not 'catch it.'

 

The perp was unable to answer questions about any mechanism, and resorted to personal attacks instead.  An acolyte then joined him in attacking others.

 

So, that is the etiology of this disease.

 

This sort of thing goes far beyond HiFi, and is a key attack made on climate change science (by the same PR firm that was hired to fuzz up the impacts of tobacco smoke on lung cancer and other health effects). This is why I think it is important to counter these sorts of things when they arise, tho I may be biased by having to attempt to de-program both undergraduate and graduate students in a past life.

[MikeyFresh]

47 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Reminds me of the "wiccans" on Agon. While I enjoy Agon, there are quite a few there who practice mysticism  vs rational  deduction for finding audio improvements. Not an approach that is received well on a site like CA whose core base is computer literate individuals.

 

You don't have any idea if I were computer literate or not, just like you have no idea if vibration and resonance control can improve digital audio (because you've never actually tried it).

 

Welcome to my Ignore list, and have fun with the band of trolls.

[Speed Racer]

2 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said:

Welcome to my Ignore list, and have fun with the band of trolls.

 

@MikeyFresh

 

Please spare us the melodrama...just ignore us all!!

[sandyk]

7 hours ago, davide256 said:

Doesn't sound like you are trained in digital electronics and information transmission.

 

 I don't give a stuff whether people like yourself who think that they know everything about the Audio area associated with Digital Audio accept or not, what VERY large numbers of C.A.   members are telling you they are hearing due to other factors that do not apply to purely Data functions. Do yourselves a favour and read some of the very informative posts and explanations by highly qualified members such as John Swenson in the Uptone and other areas of this forum..

 You may even learn something from the discussions elsewhere involving John Swenson, Charles Hansen and "the father" of Async USB Audio, Gordon Rankin.

 

It would be greatly appreciated if several of you stopped deliberately trashing every thread that you do not agree with.

Do we once again need to ask Admin to step in ?

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/draft?page=1

https://www.audiostream.com/content/theres-no-such-thing-digital-conversation-charles-hansen-gordon-rankin-and-steve-silberman-p

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits

https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-3-how-bit-perfect-software-can-affect-sound

 

[davide256]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 I don't give a stuff whether people like yourself who think that they know everything about the Audio area associated with Digital Audio accept or not, what VERY large numbers of C.A.   members are telling you they are hearing due to other factors that do not apply to purely Data functions. Do yourselves a favour and read some of the very informative posts and explanations by highly qualified members such as John Swenson in the Uptone and other areas of this forum..

 You may even learn something from the discussions elsewhere involving John Swenson, Charles Hansen and "the father" of Async USB Audio, Gordon Rankin.

 

It would be greatly appreciated if several of you stopped deliberately trashing every thread that you do not agree with.

Do we once again need to ask Admin to step in ?

 

https://www.audiostream.com/content/draft?page=1

https://www.audiostream.com/content/theres-no-such-thing-digital-conversation-charles-hansen-gordon-rankin-and-steve-silberman-p

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-1-what-digital

http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-2-are-bits-just-bits

https://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-john-swenson-part-3-how-bit-perfect-software-can-affect-sound

 

 

Sandyk... every piece of content above has to do with after data arrives across the network to a PC or renderer and is stripped out of its frame and packet header for internal processing into a digital audio signal. None of it applies to data in transit inside a packet/frame transport envelope. I do follow and generally endorse the content above for the issues of getting audio data cleanly output, whether it be from HDD locally or from network after frame/packet envelope removal. But these articles are not germane to network data transmission.

 

 

 

[m3lraaHnevetS]

7 minutes ago, davide256 said:

 

Sandyk... every piece of content above has to do with after data arrives across the network to a PC or renderer and is stripped out of its frame and packet header for internal processing into a digital audio signal. None of it applies to data in transit inside a packet/frame transport envelope. I do follow and generally endorse the content above for the issues of getting audio data cleanly output, whether it be from HDD locally or from network after frame/packet envelope removal. But these articles are not germane to network data transmission.

 

 

 

sorry to disturb your peace but in the first article I read:

 

AS: Since there's no such thing as 1s and 0s in digital transmission, what is being sent over our USB/Firewire/Ethernet cables when we play back music files?

CH: An ANALOG signal!

Steve Silberman: I think this is where things get misconstrued. The signals we think of abstractly as “digital” are in fact high-speed analog square waves, susceptible to all of the same damage and distortions as any other analog signal.

So now what?

[Dr Tone]

2 minutes ago, m3lraaHnevetS said:

sorry to disturb your peace but in the first article I read:

 

AS: Since there's no such thing as 1s and 0s in digital transmission, what is being sent over our USB/Firewire/Ethernet cables when we play back music files?

CH: An ANALOG signal!

Steve Silberman: I think this is where things get misconstrued. The signals we think of abstractly as “digital” are in fact high-speed analog square waves, susceptible to all of the same damage and distortions as any other analog signal.

So now what?

 

There are safe guards and error checking in place to make sure the it's reconstructed as intended.  If destroyed by a router that isn't sitting on still points it asks for it again.  When it still doesn't get it right the music doesn't sound worst, it doesn't sound at all.

[m3lraaHnevetS]

9 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

There are safe guards and error checking in place to make sure the it's reconstructed as intended.  If destroyed by a router that isn't sitting on still points it asks for it again.  When it still doesn't get it right the music doesn't sound worst, it doesn't sound at all.

Wish it was that simple...