Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

[left channel]

Glad to help. It's been fun.  And yes I'll do what I can. As a matter of fact I used to work for Apple, and live near Apple HQ.

[Norton]

I'm not knocking this DAC, it looks to be terrific VFM and I quite fancy one myself.  But if chips matter, then it's worth pointing out that, according to spec sheet and despite being marketed as having ESS's "flagship DAC-chip", the 9038 chips are the Q2Ms intended for mobile applications -  not the 9038 Pro used in some much more expensive desktop DACs, which comes from ESS's Sabre audiophile line and is described by them as their flagship chip.  9038Pros look to retail at $75+ a piece alone.

[asdf1000]

51 minutes ago, Norton said:

I'm not knocking this DAC, it looks to be terrific VFM and I quite fancy one myself.  But if chips matter, then it's worth pointing out that, according to spec sheet and despite being marketed as having ESS's "flagship DAC-chip", the 9038 chips are the Q2Ms intended for mobile applications and not the 9038 Pro used in some much more expensive desktop DACs.  9038Pros look to retail at $75+ a piece alone.

 

As per the late great Charles Hansen, the analogue section and power supply are more important than the chip these days.

 

This DAC has a nice analogue section (Charles gave this DAC the thumbs up) and with external power input, you can go bonkers with external power. John Westlake has said performance improves with better quality external power. 

 

 

 

[Norton]

35 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

As per the late great Charles Hansen, the analogue section and power supply are more important than the chip these days.

 

This DAC has a nice analogue section (Charles gave this DAC the thumbs up) and with external power input, you can go bonkers with external power. John Westlake has said performance improves with better quality external power. 

 

 

 

 

Its marketing and forum enthusiasm is heavily led by the twin 9038/ flagship DAC chip proposition, as per the title of this thread for example.  I'm just pointing out that this needs some qualification; unless I'm wrong that is, quite happy to be corrected..

[kilroy]

Can anyone comment on the sound quality as compared to a DAC in a different price range. Such as any of the current faves like Exasound, Mytek, Holo, Benchmark, Yggy, DirectStream or faves of even a couple years ago (but still good) DACs such as the Vega or NADs? Honestly my digital setup is about 15X the price of this unit. Just trying to understand if there's anything here other than a low price and MQA availability.

[wushuliu]

5 hours ago, Norton said:

I'm not knocking this DAC, it looks to be terrific VFM and I quite fancy one myself.  But if chips matter, then it's worth pointing out that, according to spec sheet and despite being marketed as having ESS's "flagship DAC-chip", the 9038 chips are the Q2Ms intended for mobile applications -  not the 9038 Pro used in some much more expensive desktop DACs, which comes from ESS's Sabre audiophile line and is described by them as their flagship chip.  9038Pros look to retail at $75+ a piece alone.

 

Ah that explains it. Knew something was up. Then it's definitely overpriced for what it does. You can get es9038q2m dac boards on ebay of similar size for $40. Inferior design to the project? Probably, but it gives an idea of value. In other words give it a few months and there will be an even cheaper option. Pro-ject is just the first to hit the retail market.

[arcman]

Can anybody verify any differences between 2.11 and final update? It's a booger to reach in and unhook this thing. If 2.12 is just the "released" version of 2.11...I'll probably just leave things alone

[MagnusH]

It's supposed to fix the MQA drop-out issue as well, but I don't use MQA so haven't verified it. The Windows drivers are also updated, with improved control panel and better Roon support (and maybe some more that I haven't discovered).

 

[GUTB]

I know there’s no way this little baby box is going to compete with a real DAC. But MQA, 5v power allowing the use of battery, and DSD512 for the price of $400...I just had to do it.

[wushuliu]

16 minutes ago, GUTB said:

I know there’s no way this little baby box is going to compete with a real DAC. But MQA, 5v power allowing the use of battery, and DSD512 for the price of $400...I just had to do it.

 

It could definitely compete. I've read some really great things about the ES9038Q2M boards off ebay, once they've been modified a little. Overall feedback is these chips blow away the older ones. I'm just saying in about six months I bet other companies will $200 units. In a year it will fit in a thumb drive.

 

I'm still shocked by the performance I get from my tiny thumb Sabaj DA3 with dual eS9018Q2m/XMOS Xu208 for $90. a few years ago that would have been $500 easy.

[left channel]

3 hours ago, kilroy said:

Can anyone comment on the sound quality as compared to a DAC in a different price range. Such as any of the current faves like Exasound, Mytek, Holo, Benchmark, Yggy, DirectStream or faves of even a couple years ago (but still good) DACs such as the Vega or NADs? Honestly my digital setup is about 15X the price of this unit. Just trying to understand if there's anything here other than a low price and MQA availability.

 

I think if you buy one of those you'll get what you pay for, definitely in features and probably in sound. This product sets a new benchmark for sub-$1,000 DACs, but it's not a high-end product. The next-nearest in price with similar features is I believe the Mytek Brookyn+, but they really can't be compared and I believe if you spend the 5x in price for the Mytek you won't be wasting your money.

In a feature specs comparison, you'll probably find the others can do MQA and DSD through coaxial and optical inputs, while this one only processes those through USB, and you'll find the others have far more processing power overall. Also it does not have balanced outs, and the headphone amp is not very powerful so not as good at driving high-impedance headphones. And so on.

Comparing SQ is more subjective, and I've only personally compared it to a Magni 2u / Modi 2U stack. Even controlling for the more powerful headphone amp, headphones simply do not sound as good to me as they do on my Magni 2U.  The sound of the DAC alone, directly through the pre amp outs, well that's a more subtle thing. I believe it comes close but does not equal my Modi 2U, though they're close, and of course the ability to explore MQA, DSD, and digital filtering more than make up for any slight shortfall there. Do those expensive DACs you listed sound better? Well, ears are a funny thing. But at those prices I sure hope the result sounds better.

All of the above listening was done at my desktop. I'm certainly looking at larger DACs for a serious media room setup, namely Schiit, exaSound, and Mytek. But before I buy anything like that, I am going to put the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital inline to see how it performs.

[Samuel T Cogley]

58 minutes ago, GUTB said:

I know there’s no way this little baby box is going to compete with a real DAC. But MQA, 5v power allowing the use of battery, and DSD512 for the price of $400...I just had to do it.

 

This is a reason I'm thinking about this DAC as well.  When the iFI iGalvanic3.0 was first released, they bundled it with one of these and one of these.  I'm not using them with the iGalvanic because I can't hear any difference.  Seems like the perfect power supply for the Pre Box S2.

 

As noted in another thread, @left channel deserves high praise for his work with Pro-Ject to help sort out the issues and firmware.  I've blown my DAC budget for 2017, but I anticipate picking one of these up next month.

[Samuel T Cogley]

20 minutes ago, left channel said:

In a feature specs comparison, you'll probably find the others can do MQA and DSD through coaxial and optical inputs, while this one only processes those through USB, and you'll find the others have far more processing power overall.

 

In my experience, this is extremely rare.  DoP/USB is much more common.  The fact that the Pre Box S2 can do full MQA decoding (as opposed to render only, like the new Dragonflys and the iFI iDSD Nano BL) is a huge plus.

[wushuliu]

As a fan of ifi I say approach the iPower with caution. The first one I had squealed like a pig when plugged in - an issue that is/was well known, don't know if they solved that. The iDefender is worth every penny. I say get any of a number of better external options and plug into the iDefender.

[Samuel T Cogley]

3 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

As a fan of ifi I say approach the iPower with caution. The first one I had squealed like a pig when plugged in - an issue that is/was well known, don't know if they solved that. The iDefender is worth every penny. I say get any of a number of better external options and plug into the iDefender.

 

I haven't heard that squeal with mine, but I appreciate the heads up!

[left channel]

2 hours ago, arcman said:

Can anybody verify any differences between 2.11 and final update? It's a booger to reach in and unhook this thing. If 2.12 is just the "released" version of 2.11...I'll probably just leave things alone

 

2 hours ago, MagnusH said:

It's supposed to fix the MQA drop-out issue as well, but I don't use MQA so haven't verified it. The Windows drivers are also updated, with improved control panel and better Roon support (and maybe some more that I haven't discovered).

 

 

Here's what I know about the two new updates, one for Windows and one for the unit itself. 

The new Windows control panel automatically adjusts the ASIO buffer size. Previously you had to manually go in there and adjust that upwards for DSD. I have watched the new panel as the buffer state changed on its own while I switched between 16/44.1, 24/192, 24/88.2, and DSD256 tracks. It also includes the software volume and balance controls that were previously in the beta. Overall it's simpler and less confusing for the average user, especially as they may never need to open it. And of course none of this is necessary for Mac users.

The new firmware update changes are as follows, from their Facebook page. Only one of these items is new since the 2.11 beta: the MQA dropout fix. I'm trying to find out more, but I doubt the support guy knows the details, and the designer is buried in his next project already so not responding much to Pro-Ject problems. Note that once you have updated the Windows driver and control panel, you must use a separate firmware updater. I am updating my public Dropbox folder with this info and the new downloads.

 

Changelog
* DSD channel swap problem rectified
* Pop noises on sample rate changes problem rectified
* MQA drop-out problem rectified

 

[left channel]

Everything you guys are discussing here, except maybe that squeal, has already been covered in the other thread. Just saying.

Over there I've also just posted a comparison to other DACs, and information on the software/firmware updates.

[exdmd]

5 hours ago, wushuliu said:

 

Ah that explains it. Knew something was up. Then it's definitely overpriced for what it does. You can get es9038q2m dac boards on ebay of similar size for $40. Inferior design to the project? Probably, but it gives an idea of value. In other words give it a few months and there will be an even cheaper option. Pro-ject is just the first to hit the retail market.

 

This thread saved me from buying a unit to compare with my Brooklyn DAC+ which uses the 9028 Pro chip. I thought for a brief while the Pro-Ject was using the more expensive 9038 Pro.Talk about misleading advertising. Amazon says the unit uses "High end ESS Sabre ESS9038 dual DAC" while the Pro-Ject USA site says the DAC used is "1x ESS9038Q2M 32-bit PCM 768kHz / DSD512". No way they could afford the 9038 Pro for a budget DAC.

[arcman]

Thanks. I will update over the weekend

[rickca]

3 hours ago, left channel said:

Here's what I know about the two new updates, one for Windows and one for the unit itself. 

Companies should hire you to run their beta programs!  Excellent communications, thanks.

[Mshenay]

Friend of mine just literally gave me his impressions of this alongside some pictures! I'm always impressed how quickly word spreads about a good product, though you guys will have to do the listening in my place... for now! 

[ted_b]

3 hours ago, exdmd said:

while the Pro-Ject USA site says the DAC used is "1x ESS9038Q2M 32-bit PCM 768kHz / DSD512".

The site says 2x ESS9038Q2M, not one.  I agree that the earlier comments about it being a flagship chip are quite misleading, the specs show it still to use mono design.

 

[asdf1000]

12 minutes ago, ted_b said:

The site says 2x ESS9038Q2M, not one.  I agree that the earlier comments about it being a flagship chip are quite misleading, the specs show it still to use mono design.

 

 

No question about the mono design, looking at the inside with dual chips

 

 

 

[Mshenay]

2 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

No question about the mono design, looking at the inside with dual chips

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the pics. Guys as others have said, we know implementation and design weigh more heavily on sound quality than just the chipset it self 

[asdf1000]

Just now, Mshenay said:

 

Thanks for the pics. Guys as others have said, we know implementation and design mean more than the chipset it self 

 

Absolutely.