Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

[rredline]

MQA = 16-bit FLAC + 8-bit MP3 = rubbish.

 

Condemn anything related to MQA, where it's real motive hiding behind the scenes is collecting heavy licensing fee and impose DRM one day (check their patents).......the evil thing that all of us will cry foul when it happened one day.

[MagnusH]

14 hours ago, left channel said:

 

Everyone including the designer agrees the included external power adapter will improve the sound over USB power alone. 

I think what John said was that improved (as in less noisy) power would improve the sound. The iFi iPower compared to stock power adapter did a big difference, easily noticed without doing any proper A/B. I think to get a linear power with as little noise as iFi iPower it will get expensive, something like $200 or more.

[left channel]

1 hour ago, MagnusH said:

I think what John said was that improved (as in less noisy) power would improve the sound. The iFi iPower compared to stock power adapter did a big difference, easily noticed without doing any proper A/B. I think to get a linear power with as little noise as iFi iPower it will get expensive, something like $200 or more.

 

Yes indeed. Someone asked: How about adding a good linear PSU to the pre-box, would it improve sound quality?

 

And John replied: Very much so - despite the effort we went to with the internal PSU, the external PSU makes a big difference.

John also noted: Pro-Ject have a Battery PSU for the DAC in the works.

 

Then when you described your good results with the iFi Power, John replied: Magnus, Yes pretty much agree that the PSU quality makes a decent difference - it's why during the course of the product's development we added the "auto switching" external PSU input.

 

The manual is incorrect to warn us not to plug in both USB and the external apapter at the same time, and Pro-Ject will correct that. Adding the stock external power adapter on the 5v jack certainly does make an audible improvement over USB power. And as we've also agreed, adding an anti-jitter product on the USB jack makes a small difference as well. 

 

It's hard to know whether I don't hear a further improvement after upgrading from the stock adapter because I'm using a cheap LPS, or because my ears and power source are different. The power is quite good here, in a home with all new wiring, filtered through quiet grid-tie solar inverters, and even a new transformer on the power pole. As I don't want the iFi Power interfering with my shortwave radios, I'd need to try one of those more expensive power supplies you mentioned. Many cost more than the Pro-Ject box itself! I probably won't go there unless I need one of those primarily for something else. But that Pro-Ject battery PSU sounds intruiging.

[MagnusH]

Just as an experiment, you could try one of these extra charge batteries for mobile phones, they cost like $15 and is linear power and should be fairly noise-free. Also fun to see how long they can drive the DAC!

 

For example: this!

[left channel]

9 minutes ago, MagnusH said:

Just as an experiment, you could try one of these extra charge batteries for mobile phones, they cost like $15 and is linear power and should be fairly noise-free. Also fun to see how long they can drive the DAC!

 

For example: this!

 

Thanks, I do have a few of those lying around. There is a difference between Android and Apple pinouts. Perhaps that won't matter for a simple power jack, but we probably should do at least a bit of research before plugging one in.

[MagnusH]

They should be 5V and support up to 2.1 amp (how much of course depends on the resistance), so I have a hard time to see why it should not work. Come on test it, YOLO :-)

[left channel]

18 minutes ago, MagnusH said:

They should be 5V and support up to 2.1 amp (how much of course depends on the resistance), so I have a hard time to see why it should not work. Come on test it, YOLO :-)

 

OK YOLO, and I can afford a new DAC if I zap this one. I connected an Anker battery of similar specs, and Louis is singing Blueberry Hill in DSD256 just fine. I used the battery's Android port, which I believe follows the USB charging standard, and did not try the Apple port. I don't hear an improvement over the stock adapter, for reasons previously discussed. But external power is better than USB power.

[Narbooty]

Yikes, and now I'm going down the rabbit hole of various USB products. Actual cables, USB Regen, Wyrd, iFi iPurifier2, jitterbug, ground loop isolators, ETC!!!!!.....come on now. How could anyone possibly go the right route without actually testing all this junk?! I suppose that's a topic for a different thread though.

 

[left channel]

1 hour ago, Narbooty said:

Yikes, and now I'm going down the rabbit hole of various USB products. Actual cables, USB Regen, Wyrd, iFi iPurifier2, jitterbug, ground loop isolators, ETC!!!!!.....come on now. How could anyone possibly go the right route without actually testing all this junk?! I suppose that's a topic for a different thread though.

 

 

:-) Yup, it's a lot to wade through. And maybe you should first listen to your new DAC before adding anything else. But here's my two cents: an AudioQuest Jitterbug and an iFi iPower would be perhaps the most appropriate options, as together they are still only about 1/4 the price of this product.  Two of us here own more expensive USB reclockers (an iFi nano iUSB3 and an UpTone Audio USB Regen, each worth about 1/2 the Pro-Ject price alone), but I initially purchased mine for use on other products. 

[exdmd]

4 hours ago, Narbooty said:

Yikes, and now I'm going down the rabbit hole of various USB products. Actual cables, USB Regen, Wyrd, iFi iPurifier2, jitterbug, ground loop isolators, ETC!!!!!.....come on now. How could anyone possibly go the right route without actually testing all this junk?! I suppose that's a topic for a different thread though.

 

 

If you have an unlimited budget there is always some accessory or cable you can buy which will give you marginal improvements in sound quality.

 

Most of us are on a budget and my experience is 50 - 70% of your budget should be spent on phones (or speakers.) You want phones that will scale as you improve your components later on and great phones can still sound thrilling even with budget amps e.g. Schiit Magni or Vali.

 

Your next largest purchase should be your DAC followed by amp. Worry about USB products after you get the basics right. A $1500 pair of Sennheiser HD 800s still sound fine through a Vali 2 and only get better when you can move up to a boutique tube amp later on.

[GUTB]

To clean up your digital playback chain you need more than a USB isolator. You need a dedicated audio PC tuned for playback, SSD filtered or removed from the audio circuit, use of a PC linear power supply. All audio components on a dedicated circuit or on a filter. Until this is done a PC based system won’t be able to compete with analog — or even a high end CD player.

[Miska]

2 hours ago, GUTB said:

To clean up your digital playback chain you need more than a USB isolator. You need a dedicated audio PC tuned for playback, SSD filtered or removed from the audio circuit, use of a PC linear power supply. All audio components on a dedicated circuit or on a filter. Until this is done a PC based system won’t be able to compete with analog — or even a high end CD player.

 

It would be useful to have some objective data on this. There are also lot of DACs running from switched power supply, including the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital. Which, when running from my normal workstation, puts out better analog output performance than lot of high end analog gear.

 

The figures I've measured for it, running at DSD512:

SNR: 120 dB

THD: 0.00082%

IMD: 0.00009%

 

Source is my Xeon E5 workstation running Ubuntu Studio Linux.

[MagnusH]

4 hours ago, GUTB said:

To clean up your digital playback chain you need more than a USB isolator. You need a dedicated audio PC tuned for playback, SSD filtered or removed from the audio circuit, use of a PC linear power supply. All audio components on a dedicated circuit or on a filter. Until this is done a PC based system won’t be able to compete with analog — or even a high end CD player.

That is true for a high end system, but for a budget DAC an USB tweak is more appropriate. Makes no sense to spend $400 on a DAC and then thousands of dollars on improvement to USB and power.

 

If you still want to go down that road, something like a ultraRendu or Sotm sms-200 with a decent power is enough to separate the computer from the DAC, and if you use Roon they are Roon ready.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

It would be useful to have some objective data on this. There are also lot of DACs running from switched power supply, including the Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital. Which, when running from my normal workstation, puts out better analog output performance than lot of high end analog gear.

 

The figures I've measured for it, running at DSD512:

SNR: 120 dB

THD: 0.00082%

IMD: 0.00009%

 

Source is my Xeon E5 workstation running Ubuntu Studio Linux.

Wow, great to see these numbers.  Thanks for sharing

[lmitche]

37 minutes ago, MagnusH said:

Makes no sense to spend $400 on a DAC and then thousands of dollars on improvement to USB and power.

Why not? That's what I have done here with my $550 ifi microIDSD. I started with Auralic Vega to Mytek Brooklyn to IFI microIDSD at dsd512 with lots of "guest DACs" in between, T+A, Bryston, Cambridge Audio, Marantz, Teac.

 

The sound quality I'm enjoying now is way above where I started and blows away my expectations of what is possible. The last thing I'd upgrade is the dac. It's the money spent on the upsampling machine, USB components and LPSUs that deliver the most bang for the buck.  The DAC is just one component in the whole system. It's the integration and matching of components that matters.

 

Nevertheless, given the low price point, and Miskas post just above, I am tempted to try the Project DAC once US distribution is in place. Maybe once again a less expensive DAC will yield an increase in sound quality.

 

There are so many ways to skin this cat!

[MagnusH]

A good HiFi setup is all about balance in my opinion, you want to select electronics and speakers so that diminishing returns are about equal on all components to get most sound quality for money.

 

For example, I am pretty sure that a Chord Hugo 2 without any extra will crush a iFi iDSD no matter how good power and clean signal you have. Of course, if you do use a Chord Hugo 2, then it makes sense to add an extra $1000 on something like a ultraRendu or Sotm sms-200 to get even better sound. For a DAC like Pro-Ject S2, a iFi iPower or a relative cheap USP tweak like iFi nano iUSB or UpTone Regen results in best sound quality for the money.

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, MagnusH said:

A good HiFi setup is all about balance in my opinion, you want to select electronics and speakers so that diminishing returns are about equal on all components to get most sound quality for money.

 

For example, I am pretty sure that a Chord Hugo 2 without any extra will crush a iFi iDSD no matter how good power and clean signal you have. Of course, if you do use a Chord Hugo 2, then it makes sense to add an extra $1000 on something like a ultraRendu or Sotm sms-200 to get even better sound. For a DAC like Pro-Ject S2, a iFi iPower or a relative cheap USP tweak like iFi nano iUSB or UpTone Regen results in best sound quality for the money.

Isn't a chord Hugo 2 a $2400 DAC? Anyway, I wouldn't be so confident.  The little ifi microIDSD with Hqplayer upsampling to dsd512 is something special.

 

 But we will never know and it doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.

[Narbooty]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Why not? That's what I have done here with my $550 ifi microIDSD. I started with Auralic Vega to Mytek Brooklyn to IFI microIDSD at dsd512 with lots of "guest DACs" in between, T+A, Bryston, Cambridge Audio, Marantz, Teac.

 

The sound quality I'm enjoying now is way above where I started and blows away my expectations of what is possible. The last thing I'd upgrade is the dac. It's the money spent on the upsampling machine, USB components and LPSUs that deliver the most bang for the buck.  The DAC is just one component in the whole system. It's the integration and matching of components that matters.

 

Nevertheless, given the low price point, and Miskas post just above, I am tempted to try the Project DAC once US distribution is in place. Maybe once again a less expensive DAC will yield an increase in sound quality.

 

There are so many ways to skin this cat!

 

So many ways to skin this cat is right. I'm trying to plan out the next few years of purchases(roughly, of course...a general road map at least) as my income will be increasing significantly in a year and a half. At that point spending the money on say...the Mytek Brooklyn...would be very doable. Perhaps breaking everything up into more individual components would actually give better returns in the long run and allow me to purchase some things in the meantime that won't need to simply be replaced/upgraded later(I know that once you get into this enough there is ALWAYS a potential upgrade, but I hope you understand what I mean).

[lmitche]

30 minutes ago, Narbooty said:

 

So many ways to skin this cat is right. I'm trying to plan out the next few years of purchases(roughly, of course...a general road map at least) as my income will be increasing significantly in a year and a half. At that point spending the money on say...the Mytek Brooklyn...would be very doable. Perhaps breaking everything up into more individual components would actually give better returns in the long run and allow me to purchase some things in the meantime that won't need to simply be replaced/upgraded later(I know that once you get into this enough there is ALWAYS a potential upgrade, but I hope you understand what I mean).

So you have to realize that CA is a young field integrating high production scale, low cost commodity computing components with low production scale, high cost audio components. You will get further investing in commodity computer components and using a low cost DAC then tying your money up in an audiophile DAC.  The difference between DACs is going to be relatively low given that the same DAC chip is used at many price levels. On the computing side we are seeing new technologies like more powerful processors, faster storage options like Optane, USB 3.1 generation 2, USB isolation chips, next generation linear regulators . . . enabling higher rates of upsampling resolution and much lower noise levels.

 

If you can handle the diy aspects, investing in the computing side of the equation yields fantastic rewards, and sharing techniques and debating the results in the CA community is an enormous amount of fun, most of the time.

[Narbooty]

13 minutes ago, lmitche said:

So you have to realize that CA is a young field integrating high production scale, low cost commodity computing components with low production scale, high cost audio components. You will get further investing in commodity computer components and using a low cost DAC then tying your money up in an audiophile DAC.  The difference between DACs is going to be relatively low given that the same DAC chip is used at many price levels. On the computing side we are seeing new technologies like more powerful processors, faster storage options like Optane, USB 3.1 generation 2, USB isolation chips, next generation linear regulators . . . enabling higher rates of upsampling resolution and much lower noise levels.

 

If you can handle the diy aspects, investing in the computing side of the equation yields fantastic rewards, and sharing techniques and debating the results in the CA community is an enormous amount of fun, most of the time.

 

That seems to be exactly the kind of approach I am starting to think is best, including the sharing/debating on here

With that said, I'm again back to the best place to start once the DAC arrives. 

 

[GUTB]

The idea of balance in hifi is false — what’s important is synergy and knowledge of what you’re trying to achieve.

 

Some aspects cost more than others. For example, let’s say you’re trying to achieve high resolution. You’ll want a very quiet amp, possibly a class D. Speakers should have very rigid drivers, like Accutons; ribbon tweeters also. High quality ladder DAC. Reduction of noise floor by any means. Nearfield is better, headphones are best. Other factors like bandwidth and certain room treatments may be benificial but not important. A balanced system that costs $1K is not going to achieve what your looking for — but if you replaced the amp in that $1K system with a $1.5K NCore or Pascal you’d be much closer to your target. 

 

Personally I’m looking for soundstage, imaging and musicality above all else, and those criteria require time-phase correctness, advanced room acoustics and linearity. 

[left channel]

Well. Back here at ground level, where my Pro-Ject box is simply a drop-in digital replacement for a low-cost high-quality Schiit stack, I have another suggestion for a linear power supply. This should perform better than my $11 Jameco/ReliaPro wall-wart, while avoiding the shortwave RFI plus line hum issues of the $50 iFi Power: the TeraDak U9VA Linear Low noise Power Supply, USD $44 plus s/h.

There are quite a few like that available from other makers in Asia. But I noticed the TeraDak because Darko used it in his test of the microRendu. Of course, he heard (or perceived) better sound when he replaced the TeraDak with a $3,500 LIO power supply customized with a few hundred dollars more in boards and cables. But, seriously? I suspect I'd have to upgrade everything else in my system — at 10x the price per component, plus several more 10x components — and build a dedicated listening room, before I'd be able to get any value out of anything like the LIO.

 

Similar proportionate cost multipliers accompany the usefulness of many other audio products priced in-between those two points. And moving in that direction would certainly lead, for one reason or another (plus another reason, custom-tailored for your spouse ) to replacing the feature-rich excellent-value DAC that is (or was, once upon a time) the topic of this thread.

[lmitche]

20 minutes ago, left channel said:

Well. Back here at ground level, where my Pro-Ject box is simply a drop-in digital replacement for a low-cost high-quality Schiit stack, I have another suggestion for a linear power supply. This should perform better than my $11 Jameco/ReliaPro wall-wart, while avoiding the shortwave RFI plus line hum issues of the $50 iFi Power: the TeraDak U9VA Linear Low noise Power Supply, USD $44 plus s/h.

There are quite a few like that available from other makers in Asia. But I noticed the TeraDak because Darko used it in his test of the microRendu. Of course, he heard (or perceived) better sound when he replaced the TeraDak with a $3,500 LIO power supply customized with a few hundred dollars more in boards and cables. But, seriously? I suspect I'd have to upgrade everything else in my system — at 10x the price per component, plus several more 10x components — and build a dedicated listening room, before I'd be able to get any value out of anything like the LIO.

 

Similar proportionate cost multipliers accompany the usefulness of many other audio products priced in-between those two points. And moving in that direction would certainly lead, for one reason or another (plus another reason, custom-tailored for your spouse ) to replacing the feature-rich excellent-value DAC that is (or was, once upon a time) the topic of this thread.

Here is the famous "El Cheapo" lpsu used by many of us to power lps-1s.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-end-30W-DC9V-HiFi-Linear-power-supply-Regulated-PSU-for-DAC-headphone-amp/111706391166?hash=item1a0238427e:g:a8MAAOSwxYxUs6kH

 

Your Teradak choice is a good one as well.

[GUTB]

Switching mode power supplies are the enemy of audio. There can’t be a SMPS anywhere on your audio circuit. The absolute worst place you could plug in your audio equipment is in a power bar where all your non-audio stuff resides (PC, monitor, printer, lamps, etc). Same with linear PSU — you can’t plug them into a non-audio circuit and expect NOT to get hit with a SQ degradation. I recently tested that myself with my new TeraDak ATX LPSU. Basically, switching PSUs are your enemy, and they can’t be in or anywhere around your audio. If you’re considering a component that uses a switching supply, you have to discard it from consideration. If it uses a DC power input, you need to use a battery pack or a LPSU supply.

 

 

See those little coils? That’s the hallmark of a switching power supply. If you see those, look elsewhere. No serious audio component is going to use a SMPS.

[semente]

1 hour ago, left channel said:

Well. Back here at ground level, where my Pro-Ject box is simply a drop-in digital replacement for a low-cost high-quality Schiit stack, I have another suggestion for a linear power supply. This should perform better than my $11 Jameco/ReliaPro wall-wart, while avoiding the shortwave RFI plus line hum issues of the $50 iFi Power: the TeraDak U9VA Linear Low noise Power Supply, USD $44 plus s/h.

 

Have you seen this one?

 

https://www.audiophonics.fr/

 

Sorry, wrong link...

 

https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/hi-fi-power-supply/linear-stabilized-power-supply-9v-3a-squeezebox-duet-b-v3-p-8480.html