Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

[wushuliu]

7 minutes ago, left channel said:

 

That link didn't work. Happens sometimes, somehow we get linked back to current CA page. Can you still edit that post, or reply with the link?

 

Edited the post but I'll add the Topping link here as well

[left channel]

2 minutes ago, wushuliu said:

 

Edited the post but I'll add the Topping link here as well

 

Thanks. First thing that jumps out at me is that Pro-Ject is a dual DAC design, and the Topping is not. But I agree this is a good example of where the market is going.

[gahabana]

Just now, left channel said:

 

Actually I get to duck the whole argument, because thanks to @gahabana we know this DAC will work with native DSD. I haven't listened to native myself, but am told DoP sounds the same.

spot-on @left channel ... ive read threads how people concluded that CD ripped into PCM/WAV and/or compressed into lossless format called FLAC sound differently ... even when player/endpoint was not doing any conversion (cause it happened on the server) ... 

and yes, the only technical difference in reality between dop and native dsd is that DoP packs 16bit of DSD signal into 32 bit that go into DAC it does need more bandwidth to USB DAC then Native ... DSD64 via DOP uses same bandwidth as PCM176khz and DSD64 fits into PCM88.4kHz (32bits).

Anyhow, for DAC electronics to say - if i get signal which is DSD packed into DOP drop 16 bits is not really 'compute intenstive'.

[ted_b]

No argument here.    We now realize that when folks issue the "native" term they mean direct, i.e not DoP.  I believe that no one out there anymore thinks that DoP somehow involves PCM conversion; we are hopefully past that.

[rickca]

1 hour ago, wushuliu said:

Now you can get a decent looking mid-grade ES9038 Q2M portable PLUS an xmos208 for $200. That was even faster than my earlier projection. Topping isn't going to titillate this crowd but they make decent budget gear and have for some years now.

They sure publish a lot of measurements.  It will be interesting to hear some listening impressions.

[MagnusH]

Just tested myself, and with ASIO drivers I could also use DSD 512 with native, that didn't work before. 

 

About DACs: what separates low/mid tier DACs from high-end DACs is not mainly the DAC chips, its everything around it. But I have a feeling that the gap is getting more and more narrow.

[GUTB]

Received the unit. Opened it to make sure blue labeled caps are present. Installed latest drivers and firmware 2.12. Native DSD512 over HQPlayer ASIO worked without trouble.

 

Initial listening impressions conducted with the TH900. Luckily the S2's headphone out, using the baby power supplies and gain stage could be driven to a good volume at -0 dB meaning SQ loss due to digital attenuation could be eliminated. As expected, lack of dynamic force. Very clean signal though, and resolving. Based my listening of a Channel Classics native DSD recording and HQPlayer DSD512 poly-sinc playback of Redbook -- I think it does do native DSD (bypass of the SRC). It's hard to tell for sure due to the lack of dynamics, but there does appear to be a noticeable improvement of clarity and noise when using DSD.

[beerandmusic]

22 hours ago, left channel said:

 

Huh. I just found a post by the designer saying it does native DSD512. Looking forward to learning how though.

 

For the record @beerandmusic I also found a post by the designer saying it does not have galvanic isolation.

hmmm...well there is conflicting information out there then....

 

https://www.henleyaudio.co.uk/shop/product/viewfile?FileId=2827&ProductId=741

 

[asdf1000]

7 hours ago, gahabana said:

Even as it is - it sounds great and is one of the most versatile DACs esp with USB/computer sources !

 

Thanks for all the info gahabana! 

 

As soon as it's available in Australia, an order will be placed.

 

I could buy from the US or Germany right now but I do like having a local warranty, just for peace of mind.

 

The increased competition and quality in the ~USD500 DAC market is great. 

 

[left channel]

5 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

hmmm...well there is conflicting information out there then....

 

https://www.henleyaudio.co.uk/shop/product/viewfile?FileId=2827&ProductId=741

 

 

We can rely only on what John Westlake wrote himself. Some of the early European reviews relied on materials prepared before the product was even finished, by Pro-Ject marketing and partner staff in two other countries. On another forum, John specifically wrote that it does not have galvanic isolation. It does have USB filtering. He also wrote that it supports DSD512; we just needed intrepid users like @gahabana to figure out how to do that.

[asdf1000]

Just now, left channel said:

We can rely only on what John Westlake wrote himself.

 

Another giveaway is that high speed USB isolation would be clearly visible looking inside - it takes a bit of space and would be hard to miss.

 

 

 

 

[GUTB]

My main PC motherboard uses a clean 5V feature, and my audio PC uses a battery-powered PPA v3 USB card so power quality isn’t a concern for me. Currently I’m burning in the S2 on the audio PC...I’ll have to switch over to a motherboard USB port eventually when the battery dies. It plays DSD512 from Roon through HQPlayer just fine.

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, GUTB said:

My main PC motherboard uses a clean 5V feature, and my audio PC uses a battery-powered PPA v3 USB card so power quality isn’t a concern for me. Currently I’m burning in the S2 on the audio PC

 

Excellent. So I'm guessing you won't be using the S2's external 5Vdc microUSB input?

 

Just running off clean bus power?

 

[GUTB]

31 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Excellent. So I'm guessing you won't be using the S2's external 5Vdc microUSB input?

 

Just running off clean bus power?

 

 

I’ll test it with the battery as a 5v source after it burns in.

[asdf1000]

Just now, GUTB said:

 

I’ll test it with the battery as a 5v source after it burns in.

 

Excellent. How long is your planned burn in period?

 

[GUTB]

3 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

 

Excellent. How long is your planned burn in period?

 

 

DACs typically take around 7-10 days. I’ll be checking back frequently though to observe changes.

[asdf1000]

8 minutes ago, GUTB said:

 

DACs typically take around 7-10 days. I’ll be checking back frequently though to observe changes.

 

I found it depends. My DirectStream DAC did sound noticeably different (better) after a couple weeks.

 

My Chord Hugo2 never changed in how it sounded from the moment it was un-boxed.
 

My iFi iDAC2 maybe needed 48 hours.

 

Looking forward to reading your impressions.

[ted_b]

My direcstream (I reviewed it here and talked about it) took 800+ hours!!  Argh.  My Holo Spring took about 250 hours.  Other dacs took from 200-500. 

[wushuliu]

Hm the unmentioned important bit here is that it does indeed have the xmos chip, hopefully the 208 or 216, in which it should definitely be 512 capable. The xmos improvement to sq can't be overstated for usb. The pic also shows wima caps, organic polymer caps, and coilcraft inductors. Well, well. This is looking pretty good after all...

[MikeRock]

I've been out of pocket a few days, so I owe people a few responses.  @Em2016, I've been using external power with the DAC. @gahabana, I have not been any pops or clicks at all with DSD, but all I have been doing  is let Roon upsample everything except MQA to DSD512.

[GUTB]

Mine’s been breaking in for the last 2 days. Latest firmware and drivers posted here. I confirm no pops present during native DSD playback. I haven’t tested switching between DSD rates yet. I may have heard the DSD512 noisy start issue...unless I’m confusing that with my DDC which I also updated at the same time to allow DSD512 — will confirm later.

 

The line out is fairly weak....there’s a few albums I have to push the Freya to max pot on the tube stage. Check to make sure your amp/pre will be happy with the S2’s output.

[baloo2]

I bought S2 a week ago - what a great DAC with my Graham Slee Solo. :-)

 

I've got a question regarding the supplied IR remote - it works perfectly with Tidal on my iMac (I can play/pause/skip track), however in both Audirvana and Roon only play/pause buttons work. Next/PreviousTrack buttons unfortunately don't work.

 

I suppose it may be connected with the codes S2 is transmitting through USB back to Mac. Looks like Tidal is using different codes compared to Audirvana/Roon. It would be very nice from @left channel to contact Pro-ject support to investigate the issue. ;-) I already contacted Damien from Audirvana but haven't received any reply regarding the issue.

 

[left channel]

@Em2016 Pro-Ject is now considering a Mac version of the firmware update utility. Wow!

 

@baloo2 does an Apple Remote or Siri Remote work with Audirvana or Roon? Those companies offer their own tablet/phone based "remotes", and as far as I know never mention compatibility with Apple remotes. Tidal on the other hand seems to respond to the same basic OS commands relied on by iTunes on Mac and Windows, which is probably why the Pro-Ject remote works with it. I can ask Pro-Ject Support, but first trying to get a handle on this question.

 

@GUTB I agree the preamp signal is not strong compared to another little box I have here on my desk. At low volumes that could be a problem with speakers or subs that already go into automatic sleep modes too easily with other products. (PSB, for example.) Also, I'm hoping to gather reports of noisy starts or mode-switch clicks, if any, before writing back to Pro-Ject Support again.

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, left channel said:

 

@Em2016 Pro-Ject is now considering a Mac version of the firmware update. Wow!

 

 

Thanks so much for asking! Their consideration is a great start and this would be great indeed for those without easy access to a Windows PC.

 

[baloo2]

7 hours ago, left channel said:

 

@baloo2 does an Apple Remote or Siri Remote work with Audirvana or Roon? Those companies offer their own tablet/phone based "remotes", and as far as I know never mention compatibility with Apple remotes. Tidal on the other hand seems to respond to the same basic OS commands relied on by iTunes on Mac and Windows, which is probably why the Pro-Ject remote works with it. I can ask Pro-Ject Support, but first trying to get a handle on this question.

 

I don't think it's the question of Audirvana not supporting the Apple remote (see the attached screenshot from Audirvana's preferences). However I think it's the problem of S2 implementation not supporting the correct USB commands  sent back to the Mac.