Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital: MQA HW decoding at reasonable cost

[Miska]

17 minutes ago, GUTB said:

Switching mode power supplies are the enemy of audio. There can’t be a SMPS anywhere on your audio circuit. The absolute worst place you could plug in your audio equipment is in a power bar where all your non-audio stuff resides (PC, monitor, printer, lamps, etc). Same with linear PSU — you can’t plug them into a non-audio circuit and expect NOT to get hit with a SQ degradation. I recently tested that myself with my new TeraDak ATX LPSU. Basically, switching PSUs are your enemy, and they can’t be in or anywhere around your audio. If you’re considering a component that uses a switching supply, you have to discard it from consideration. If it uses a DC power input, you need to use a battery pack or a LPSU supply.

 

 

See those little coils? That’s the hallmark of a switching power supply. If you see those, look elsewhere. No serious audio component is going to use a SMPS.

 

Let's not try to turn world black-and-white. You think devices like Mytek Brooklyn DAC and bunch of others are not serious audio components? In many cases if you have a DAC that takes single voltage DC input, it likely has a DC-DC converter inside which is SMPS to generate bunch of different voltages like +-5 V, +-12 V and such...

 

So it is a bit too much to say A systematically leads to B, while truth is much more complex. I have quite many audio components using SMPS that have very good performance (much better than many "high-end" components using linear PSU).

 

Sure, I have two mains filters, one for devices with SMPS and another for amps and such that use only LPSU. But that doesn't mean there would be something wrong with either one. For a lot of computational power SMPS is needed and it certainly isn't a problem per se based on my measurements. I can use a NAA to isolate the computer and DAC when necessary. But now there are computer motherboards with USB ports specifically designed for audio, with low noise etc.

 

[firedog]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

The difference between DACs is going to be relatively low given that the same DAC chip is used at many price levels.

 

Don’t agree. Lots of DAC designers will tell you that the power supply and analog out section make more difference than the DAC chip. Lots of ESS based DACs sound different, even with the same chip.

[MagnusH]

I think the DAC chip is the upper limit of what can be achieved with the DAC as a whole, and the electronic and power supply supporting the DAC chip should degrade the sound quality as little as possible from the theoretical upper limit that the DAC chip has. But that's harder than it sound, and no budget DAC will be close to this.

 

In other words, a DAC can never sound better than the DAC chip (theoretically speaking), only worse and in most cases much worse.

 

If your into IT and computer, a decent comparison is with CPU and Ghz: the electronics around the CPU should try to support the CPU in such a way that it gets as near as possible to the CPU upper limit speed when executing programs.

[Narbooty]

Didn't realize this before...Is that a Usb 2.0 connection on the back of the DAC?

[left channel]

22 hours ago, Narbooty said:

Didn't realize this before...Is that a Usb 2.0 connection on the back of the DAC?

 

Yes that is USB, and yes it is USB 2.0 which is normal. What is it that surprised you? USB? Or 2.0?

[Display]

On 11/12/2017 at 8:55 PM, Miska said:

Switching mode power supplies are the enemy of audio

Yes - but only if "audio" means: analog component with bad power supply system...

[Miska]

3 hours ago, Display said:

Yes - but only if "audio" means: analog component with bad power supply system...

 

I didn't say what you quoted!

[left channel]

Yes @Display you somehow managed to get a sentence from someone else into a quote attributed to @Miska. It happens. But I'd rather bring this conversation back to the Pro-Ject box itself at this point if you don't mind. I think we can all agree that, at minimum, the unit performs better with external power over USB power alone. That's assuming you own one of these units. They're actually hard to come by.

[left channel]

The firmware update is now posted to the Pro-Ject website (halfway down this page), but I have packaged it with the driver CD and corrections to the user manual in a Dropbox folder (no email address or login required) for anyone who requests it via PM.

The US price seems to be confirmed at $399, but as far as we know there are only two units in the country. Those units were reportedly exhibited at RMAF and a CanJam. I think the US retailers are lucky their backorders haven't been fulfillled, given the extra support the first run of units requires due to the firmware update and errors in the user manual. There were even some part substitutions in early production that make those units eligible for exchange.

I imported my unit via a German eBay reseller, but they have not had stock for quite some time and for some reason raised their eBay price to deter orders rather than cancel the listing. An Italian eBay reseller seems to still have some on hand. Others have ordered from a retailer in the UK direct from that company's website. 

[MagnusH]

I drove 5 km and picked up mine in a store here in Sweden, but they only got 3 and 2 was gone when I got mine, so I think even here in Europe they might be slightly hard to find. I guess winning the EISA award put more demand on them than they had planned.

 

Btw, as far as I can tell, the firmware is not on their page, only the drivers.

[left channel]

Sorry. I had forgotten what was in that download, but I just tried again and they did not include the firmware update. It is only the CD contents (because some units were received without CDs). How frustrating.  Too bad I can no longer edit my previous post.

I really think it's actually a good thing few have been shipped. Many customers cannot deal with flashing firmware, or adding components to foobar for that matter. You should see some of the PMs I've been getting, especially via pinkfishmedia. This situation must be driving the resellers crazy.

 

 

[Narbooty]

On 11/14/2017 at 10:51 AM, left channel said:

 

Yes that is USB, and yes it is USB 2.0 which is normal. What is it that surprised you? USB? Or 2.0?

 

2.0 is what surprised me.  Being such a new device I just assumed it would be 3.0. I know 3.0 offers no SQ benefits, but I just figured a new device that is optionally powered by usb would used 3.0 as it offers more current(not that it necessarily matters). I know now that my assumption is indeed incorrect :p. 

*sorry for delayed response, vacation is over and back to the daily grind...had to put this stuff on the back burner for a bit!

Also, my Pre Box still hasn't even shipped. Retailer claiming supply issues: " it is taking longer than anticipated to get in a version of this product suitable for the US mains". Not super thrilled atm. 

[left channel]

@Narbooty I'm not sure the retailer knows what they're talking about. Mine included a switching power supply with swappable plugs for multiple regions including the USA, and I bought it from a reseller in Germany. I think it's more likely there is a general dearth of stock, not only of this unit but also products like the Amp Box S2, for which I placed an order weeks ago. But as I said above, given all the problems with the first production run, you're probably lucky you don't have a Pre Box S2 Digital just yet.

 

USB 3.0 was likely skipped to help meet the target price. That also one of the reasons MQA decoding will work through USB but not the S/PDIF input: one less part in the BOM, which helps keep the price at about 20% of the Mytek Brooklyn (which is cheapest DAC I know of that will decode MQA through all inputs). As you noted, USB 3.0 offers no SQ improvement but does offer more power, however we've already established that a separate external power source is a better idea anyway. And you'd be hard-pressed to find a USB 3.0 anti-jitter accessory right now. I think iFi added USB 3.0 to their latest product just get attention, without any clear benefits.

[asdf1000]

On 17/11/2017 at 5:09 AM, Miska said:

 

I didn't say what you quoted!

 

Hi Miska

 

Any chance you can publish the S2 Digital's measurements?

 

For comparison with your iFi iDSD measurements, especially with HQP up-sampling?

 

[arcman]

4 hours ago, left channel said:

@Narbooty I'm not sure the retailer knows what they're talking about. Mine included a switching power supply with swappable plugs for multiple regions including the USA, and I bought it from a reseller in Germany. I think it's more likely there is a general dearth of stock, not only of this unit but also products like the Amp Box S2, for which I placed an order weeks ago. But as I said above, given all the problems with the first production run, you're probably lucky you don't have a Pre Box S2 Digital just yet.

 

USB 3.0 was likely skipped to help meet the target price. That also one of the reasons MQA decoding will work through USB but not the S/PDIF input: one less part in the BOM, which helps keep the price at about 20% of the Mytek Brooklyn (which is cheapest DAC I know of that will decode MQA through all inputs). As you noted, USB 3.0 offers no SQ improvement but does offer more power, however we've already established that a separate external power source is a better idea anyway. And you'd be hard-pressed to find a USB 3.0 anti-jitter accessory right now. I think iFi added USB 3.0 to their latest product just get attention, without any clear benefits.

Basically, there has only been the one firmware upgrade..correct?

[left channel]

2 hours ago, arcman said:

Basically, there has only been the one firmware upgrade..correct?

 

Yes, as far as I know: version 2.11 (to display, press the Menu button and then the Input down-arrow button twice)

[Knight Rider]

Thank's @left channel. New firmware works great ??. I'm wondering what they have done because I have a feeling that sound has improved a little bit (maybe I'm just imaging) ?. But for my ears it sounds a little bit more relaxed. I'm also using IFI iPower now. It's a big improvement after plain Usb. But also standard 5V1A 6300mAh usb battery recharger sounded pretty good too. Maybe did not had quite as impressive bass punch as iPower. Btw. I'm using Tidal only and I have noticed that there is a big difference which buffer/latency settings I'm using. Definitely best sound in my set up can be achieved by using as low buffer and latency as possible. Currently using Minimal latency and buffer 64 or 128. Btw, Have you tried Jitterbug and does it works?

[Kakel]

On 20-11-2017 at 6:15 AM, left channel said:

 

Yes, as far as I know: version 2.11 (to display, press the Menu button and then the Input down-arrow button twice)

Hi left channel,

This week I received the pro-ject dac and I have problems playing DSD files.

I have an Imac with Macosx 10.1.3 (high sierra) and it doesn't recognice (automatically) the dac as DSD and it plays the DSD files but I hear lots of noise and vaguely some music. The indicator says that it plays 176 khz and not DSD. Do you have some knowledge about this problem?

 

I saw you have the new firmware. Could you send it me?

Maybe it could help? My firmware is 2.10

Your help will be appreciated greatly

 

Regards

[left channel]

Hi @Kakel, I'll send you a PM with the firmware update. There is a problem, though: installation requires Windows. And I don't think it will fix your noise problem anyway. The update will only will fix the DSD channel reversal and also a problem with a popping sound when the sample rate clock changes. Your DSD problem sounds like software player setup.

Sorry if you already know this, but maybe you're sending native DSD instead of DoP. Or something. This DAC supports only DoP (DSD over PCM), which sounds the same but is not transmitted the same way. Also some software players only support up to DSD64 or DSD128. We'll need more details on your app.

Oh and while I'm at it, here's a list of DSD-capable apps: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rHcXP7PExksxZfkif3Rv2CT1Y_ESpNSv2b0nkKlBySk/edit#gid=1964212797

[Kakel]

17 minutes ago, left channel said:

Hi @Kakel, I'll send you a PM with the firmware update. There is a problem, though: installation requires Windows. And I don't think it will fix your noise problem anyway. The update will only will fix the DSD channel reversal and also a problem with a popping sound when the sample rate clock changes. Your DSD problem sounds like software player setup.

Sorry if you already know this, but maybe you're sending native DSD instead of DoP. Or something. This DAC supports only DoP (DSD over PCM), which sounds the same but is not transmitted the same way. Also some software players only support up to DSD64 or DSD128. We'll need more details on your app.

Oh and while I'm at it, here's a list of DSD-capable apps: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rHcXP7PExksxZfkif3Rv2CT1Y_ESpNSv2b0nkKlBySk/edit#gid=1964212797

I tried to play with Audirvana Plus 3.17 and JRiver Media Center 22, both with the same result. I made sure that Button DSD over PCM dop was checked. Still didn't work.

I got it to work with an old system macosx 10.8 with Audirvana Plus 1.512 on an old macbook. So it must be a new system problem, I think

[Kakel]

Thanks for the download, left channel. The upgrade went well. No problems. I also solved the DSD problem. I forgot to patch the Mac OSX 10.13 system for the direct mode which apple stopped after El Capitan (10.10). When I did that, DSD was back in business again.:-)

[left channel]

Mystery solved. Thanks for the update, @Kakel. Please let us know what you think of the sound.

[Miska]

2 hours ago, Kakel said:

Thanks for the download, left channel. The upgrade went well. No problems. I also solved the DSD problem. I forgot to patch the Mac OSX 10.13 system for the direct mode which apple stopped after El Capitan (10.10). When I did that, DSD was back in business again.:-)

 

Hmmh, I've had DSD working just fine all the time, now on High Sierra, without any patching... Don't give my Mac's bad ideas...

 

[Display]

15 hours ago, Miska said:

Hmmh, I've had DSD working just fine

And are you sure Miska, that when playing DSD files, channels are not reverted?   (firmware 2.10) 

[arcman]

One thing for Mac users...Parallels desktop (includes windows in download) works great with the Pro-Ject firmware update. I believe the basic version is $65 or so. Also, you get a 15 day trial. I purchased the software since I have some photography wireless light triggers that require Windows for firmware updates as well.

 

 

https://www.parallels.com/landingpage/pd/general/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvNys67rX1wIVmLXACh1IEwG5EAAYASAAEgLldfD_BwE