Mutec REF 10 Masterclock

[jelt2359]

7 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

It's just a matter of marketing fluff. Whenever they're taking advantage of that term 'source agnostic' without having to back that claim up with anything whatsoever, they'll start telling us BS that would make perfect sense emotionally while it's also complete non-sense logically.

 

In other words, they're trying to manipulate someone's emotion and see if they're gonna get away with that. That term 'source agnostic' indeed sounded impressive and that would make us feel like they must have done something magical or special etc. In reality they're pretty magical in a sense that as if the clocks inside Devialet could act like a shield or stuff like that. Even if their clocking/cloaking/reclocking were as magical as it gets, that's just one out of many factors that could be affected by the quality of the source. All we need is just a tiny little bit of critical thinking and it's just a piece of cake to catch their lame "appealing to emotion" fallacy.

 

Here's yet another example, or more like a double whammy?

 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-81#post-12216950

 

A few years later, Blu MkII was released and that's supposedly the perfect match for Dave. What happened to the insensitivity and were they simply contradicting themselves in order to sell?

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30434-new-chord-blu-mk-2-announced/

 

https://www.head-fi.org/f/threads/chord-electronics-blu-mk-2-the-official-thread.831343/page-28#post-13472716

 

It's just all about fluff talks, promise everything and deliver nothing like Napoleon Bonaparte if you will.

 

Personally, I don't consider the Blu2 a 'source' in the traditional sense of the word. When paired with the Dave, it actually takes over some of the DAC's upsampling functions and adds way more taps than the Dave. This is not comparing the same sampled signal from one source to another and saying the Dave is insensitive to that. Your statement is akin to saying that every DAC out there should be insensitive to the choice of algorithm in HQPlayer when used as a source, whereas I'd wager that not a single DAC manufacturer would agree with that; regardless of their prior claims.

 

When the source data is being deliberately manipulated via different upsampling, noise-shaping and so on, then of course it's going to sound different.

 

But that's just my two cents. The problem imho was that the Blu2 was being sold as two things in one: a traditional source, as in a CDP, but also as an 'upgrade' to the Dave in terms of how it handles taps. I think Chord would claim that Dave is insensitive to the former, but definitely not the latter.

[Bamber]

My REF 10 should arrive shortly so I need to purchase 4 x 75Ω cables ASAP.

 

I want to try different brands to compare, please post about cables you recommend.  Chris from Mutec has received feedback that the Tara Labs RSC Digital Air 75 Ohms works well.

[Kritpoon]

2 hours ago, Bamber said:

My REF 10 should arrive shortly so I need to purchase 4 x 75Ω cables ASAP.

 

I want to try different brands to compare, please post about cables you recommend.  Chris from Mutec has received feedback that the Tara Labs RSC Digital Air 75 Ohms works well.

Congradulation! please keep us posted!

[limniscate]

7 hours ago, Bamber said:

My REF 10 should arrive shortly so I need to purchase 4 x 75Ω cables ASAP.

 

I want to try different brands to compare, please post about cables you recommend.  Chris from Mutec has received feedback that the Tara Labs RSC Digital Air 75 Ohms works well.

I'm very interested to hear how the Mutec Ref 10 sounds with the SOtM gear.

[Confused]

1 hour ago, limniscate said:

I'm very interested to hear how the Mutec Ref 10 sounds with the SOtM gear.

+1. This should be very interesting indeed.  It will be great to see the first Ref 10 out in the wild!

[BigAlMc]

4 minutes ago, Confused said:

+1. This should be very interesting indeed.  It will be great to see the first Ref 10 out in the wild!

 

If it's out in the wild do we think we could get David Attenborough to narrate? 

[romaz]

My REF10 and Habst clock cables have arrived.

 

The REF10 is connected to 2 SOtM sCLK-EX clock boards.  These boards have been used to replace the clocks on a small mini-ITX SoC motherboard, incoming LAN adapter, outgoing SOtM tX-USBhubIN USB card and tX-USBultra.  The tX-USBultra then connects directly to my Chord DAVE and so this is a straight USB setup.  In the next couple of weeks, I will also have my internet modem/router/switch reclocked and so eventually, 8 clocks will all be synchronized to the REF10 and I will have no bad clocks in my direct path.  It should be clear by now just how revolutionary SOtM's sCLK-EX board is.  Everything is being powered by independent rails from several Paul Hynes SR7s including my SOtM clock boards.

 

Upon first listen, I heard no difference.  Nada.  It sounded very good but with the REF10 activated or deactivated, I heard no change.  I have to admit I was a little worried.

 

I let things run continuously overnight and oh my, how things have opened up.  I'm sure more break-in is required and sound quality will improve further and so I will wait another couple of weeks before commenting further but what I am hearing already is just breathtakingly good.  The dimensionality and atmosphere of my live recordings are now at a level I have never ever heard before in my system and I have had many servers come through my system including an Aurender W20, CAD CAT, Lumin U1, Baetis Reference (original), Melco N1ZH  and Antipodes DX (2nd gen), just to name a few.  This list doesn't include the dozen or so servers I've built myself, a RedNet 3, and just about every USB and Ethernet gadget you can think of.  The layering of detail in my orchestral tracks is just crazy good and perceptible at even whisper levels.  Bass definition and dynamics, midrange texture and clarity, treble extension and air, yes, it's all there.  People talk about great clocks making the biggest difference in the bass and lower midrange but I must say, I hear it's impact everywhere.  Perhaps what stands out the most is how smooth and grain-free the sound is.  I thought my system was already free of harshness but this level of smoothness is a whole other level.  I've been listening for the last few hours and no fatigue, just amazement at how my music has taken on new life. 

 

Before this, I had a quad Ultra stack at my disposal (SOtM sMS-200ultra with Ultra reclocking switch, tX-USBultra and dX-USB HD Ultra.  More recently, I added the Iso Regen and so my system is not a stranger to well-clocked components.  As you would imagine, my system already sounded very very good and it was unfathomable that my previous setup could be beat so easily and yet, somehow, with this simpler setup + the REF10, I have beat it...and not by a small margin.

 

I'm off for a much needed holiday and so I won't be reporting back for a couple of weeks nor will I be offering a response to this post anytime soon.  By then, hopefully, my setup will be complete (which will include a reclocked router and a few other surprises).  What I will say is don't let anyone tell you an external master clock can't make a huge difference.  They have no idea.  

[Jeremy Anderson]

Thanks for the good report, Romaz!

I don't know how OCXO clocks work, but what I've heard various "femto"-scale clocks require a long stretch of runway before they really "settle in"... one of those "let it warm up for at least 20 minutes before you listen" kind of things. Perhaps that played a part...?

 

[edit]: forgot to ask... how are you having your internet router reclocked? Paul Pang? you getting jiggy with a soldering iron to patch into a lead from the REF10?

[julian.david]

Hi all,

 

The German Fidelity magazine has just published a brief, but insightful review of the REF 10. It was written in German, but there's a big red "Google Translate" button on the page that should give non-German readers at least a rough idea:

https://www.fidelity-magazin.de/2017/07/17/test-mutec-ref-10-referenztaktgenerator/

 

Julian

[jelt2359]

Given that they take time to settle in, is it a good idea to leave the ref10 on 24/7?

[austinpop]

10 hours ago, romaz said:

My REF10 and Habst clock cables have arrived.

 

The REF10 is connected to 2 SOtM sCLK-EX clock boards.  These boards have been used to replace the clocks on a small mini-ITX SoC motherboard, incoming LAN adapter, outgoing SOtM tX-USBhubIN USB card and tX-USBultra.  The tX-USBultra then connects directly to my Chord DAVE and so this is a straight USB setup.  In the next couple of weeks, I will also have my internet modem/router/switch reclocked and so eventually, 8 clocks will all be synchronized to the REF10 and I will have no bad clocks in my direct path.  It should be clear by now just how revolutionary SOtM's sCLK-EX board is.  Everything is being powered by independent rails from several Paul Hynes SR7s including my SOtM clock boards.

 

Upon first listen, I heard no difference.  Nada.  It sounded very good but with the REF10 activated or deactivated, I heard no change.  I have to admit I was a little worried.

 

I let things run continuously overnight and oh my, how things have opened up.  I'm sure more break-in is required and sound quality will improve further and so I will wait another couple of weeks before commenting further but what I am hearing already is just breathtakingly good.  The dimensionality and atmosphere of my live recordings are now at a level I have never ever heard before in my system and I have had many servers come through my system including an Aurender W20, CAD CAT, Lumin U1, Baetis Reference (original), Melco N1ZH  and Antipodes DX (2nd gen), just to name a few.  This list doesn't include the dozen or so servers I've built myself, a RedNet 3, and just about every USB and Ethernet gadget you can think of.  The layering of detail in my orchestral tracks is just crazy good and perceptible at even whisper levels.  Bass definition and dynamics, midrange texture and clarity, treble extension and air, yes, it's all there.  People talk about great clocks making the biggest difference in the bass and lower midrange but I must say, I hear it's impact everywhere.  Perhaps what stands out the most is how smooth and grain-free the sound is.  I thought my system was already free of harshness but this level of smoothness is a whole other level.  I've been listening for the last few hours and no fatigue, just amazement at how my music has taken on new life. 

 

Before this, I had a quad Ultra stack at my disposal (SOtM sMS-200ultra with Ultra reclocking switch, tX-USBultra and dX-USB HD Ultra.  More recently, I added the Iso Regen and so my system is not a stranger to well-clocked components.  As you would imagine, my system already sounded very very good and it was unfathomable that my previous setup could be beat so easily and yet, somehow, with this simpler setup + the REF10, I have beat it...and not by a small margin.

 

I'm off for a much needed holiday and so I won't be reporting back for a couple of weeks nor will I be offering a response to this post anytime soon.  By then, hopefully, my setup will be complete (which will include a reclocked router and a few other surprises).  What I will say is don't let anyone tell you an external master clock can't make a huge difference.  They have no idea.  

 

I hate you! 

 

The gap between the Habst and the Habst-nots is growing... 

 

Seriously, Roy, I have so many questions, but it can all wait until you return.

[Confused]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

The gap between the Habst and the Habst-nots is growing... 

 

That definitely gets the award for groan of the day.....  and yes, great stuff @austinpop, keep us posted when you have time.

[Confused]

And great stuff @Romaz too, fascinating post, I trust you will leave that REF10 gently stabilising as you enjoy your break

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, Confused said:

 

That definitely gets the award for groan of the day.....  and yes, great stuff @austinpop, keep us posted when you have time.

There is always Pabst for us Habst-nots.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

There is always Pabst for us Habst-nots.

 

Excellent point. Larry to the rescue!

[mozes]

I just jumped to this thread as a friend asked me today if the Mutech Ref 10 can control more than one device at a time.

He is thinking of getting it to control an SMs-200 ultra and an Esoteric dac.

Any feedback?

[jelt2359]

If by control you mean provide a clock reference, then yes. It has eight outputs, 6 for 75 ohms and 2 for 50 ohms. So it can provide a clock reference to 8 devices at once. 

[mozes]

4 minutes ago, jelt2359 said:

If by control you mean provide a clock reference, then yes. It has eight outputs, 6 for 75 ohms and 2 for 50 ohms. So it can provide a clock reference to 8 devices at once. 

Yes that's what I meant. Thanks for your answer!

[Miko]

On 5/22/2017 at 7:20 AM, julian.david said:

As Ulli mentioned MUTEC put lots of effort into creating an exceptional linear power supply with highest-grade power line filtering (without any "open", unfiltered cable paths), and lowest-noise power supplies for each section of the circuitry. So it really doesn't make a lot of sense for us to use an external power supply. We understand the concerns with the switch-mode supply in the MC-3+USB and decided to put extra emphasis on this area with the REF 10. 

 

Julian

Having played with power supplies and installing a linear in my Oppo... I can say that it really makes no appreciable difference. My set up includes a Equi-Tec balanced power system so others who do not employ balanced power may notice a difference.  My MC3 makes no noise.. you can turn the volume up with no signal and you don't hear a hiss/whizz/bang/ nada...

[mourip]

1 hour ago, Miko said:

Having played with power supplies and installing a linear in my Oppo... I can say that it really makes no appreciable difference. My set up includes a Equi-Tec balanced power system so others who do not employ balanced power may notice a difference.  My MC3 makes no noise.. you can turn the volume up with no signal and you don't hear a hiss/whizz/bang/ nada...

 

In my experience not all noise comes as buzz, whizz, or hum. Most decent systems never even produce that kind in the first place. The kind that many of us are working to get rid of presents as a nearly subliminal layer of "haze". You might never know it was there until you do something which reduces it...then you uncover more detail.

 

Three things have helped to remove noise in my system: adding a large isolation transformer with a single power strip(no filtering) for all of my audio equipment except my subwoofers, replacing SMPS power supplies with linear power supplies whenever practical, and using fiber optic connections for ethernet.

 

I have not yet replaced the internal SMPS in my Mutec USB but might do so once the warranty expires.

 

[jelt2359]

Everyone's setup is different. I have dedicated lines which feed PS Audio P10 regenerators, but still get big differences between power supplies. Currently, my Mutec 3+ USB is being fed by an LPS-1, which was a big improvement over other power supplies I've tried.

 

Oh and @mourip my Ref10 is in house. It works exactly the way we want it to, with the 3+ USB as both a standalone reclocker, as well as a distributor to the Rednet!

[mourip]

6 minutes ago, jelt2359 said:

Oh and @mourip my Ref10 is in house. It works exactly the way we want it to, with the 3+ USB as both a standalone reclocker, as well as a distributor to the Rednet!

 

Very glad to hear that. I need to let a bit of time pass before draining my Visa card again!

[jelt2359]

In our recent testing with Chord Dave and Blu2, the Dave owners were surprised by how much the Ref10 added to the Dave with an SoTM setup (ultra + TXB + Switch). With the Blu2, the impact was a bit less, but still very discernible. Nothing at all like some other 10mhz clocks I've tried. The air becomes distinct, separation between instruments becomes much better, and best of all it does it all without sharpening any edges. It's an organic and smooth type of improvement.

 

One testee remarked, this was the type of improvement that he had never heard from anything else other than a clock. It's really quite stunning!

 

Personally I am using it with my 3+ USB and Rednet. I also have an Yggy if anyone is interested to know what the improvements with that are like- but I haven't gotten there yet. Very happy listening to my current combination.

[Miko]

Does anyone run multiple MC3USB's? Before the R10 was born, there was a lot of talk about cascading them and someone tested up to 4 and thought 3 was the sweet spot.

 

I bought a MC3USB a few months back. It replaced a Singxer SU-1. I think it's incredible and elevated my systems performance. Just today, well Saturday... I just bought another MC3USB. 

 

I am gunning for the Triple 3USB freight train.. and now it's looking like I'll be ordering the R10 to boot. 

 

My question(s)

 

Does anyone use multiple MC3's?

 

My DAC is a Tascam DA-3000 (Busman Audio modified) it has a word clock in/out, has anyone tried syncing their DACS to a MC3?

 

I assume I would use a AES/EBU cable between my MC3's?

 

When I pick up an R10... I could use it to sync my MC3's and DAC? I don't have very many sources, just my PC running JRiver and my modded Oppo 103.

 

thanks for any and all help!

 

And congratulations to Mutec! They are certainly trying to and achieving a remarkable track record for bringing excellent products at real world prices for all of us.

 

Having looked at the clock market in the past, it's clear that the new R10 is certainly priced within reach for just about everyone who has more then a few bucks invested in their systems. 

[seeteeyou]

18 hours ago, jelt2359 said:

Currently, my Mutec 3+ USB is being fed by an LPS-1, which was a big improvement over other power supplies I've tried.

 

For a modified Mutec MC-3+ USB, should LPS-1 be running at 5V or is it better to try 7V instead? It's kinda like a Catch-22 as mentioned below

 

https://devialetchat.com/showthread.php?tid=2564&pid=42569#pid42569

Quote

I've read 6.0, 6.2 and 6.3V from different people.