The true experimental tweak thread

[mozes]

@Cornan as per your recommendation to contact Michael at Elijah Audio, I actually proceeded and ordered two 15 cm cables, see attached pics, they should be here in another week or 10 days. The first one is exactly like your cable which I intend to use between the Intona and RUR and the second one between RUR and the Brooklyn which needs 5v bus, so I will test using an LPS-1 and a battery to have some fun there and see how it goes. Ultimately I know I will be getting either the upcoming  Uptone Iso Regen or the Sotm USB Ultra depending on the feedback to simplify the usb chain

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, moussaobeid said:

I just plugged in my AQVOX audiophile switch. I only listened to one track as a quick test, I got some improvement but not as I expected as the sound was already amazing with my setup (battery powered TP link bridge with Acoustic Revive ethernet isolator ). Initial impression is there is more weight to all the notes and a bit more relaxed sound. This was without grounding it, but then I grounded it to my cheapo Ebay grounding box and WAWWW! simply the transparency that I got is amazing, more decay to the notes and vocals are crystal clear.

Key learning: If you use this switch, it is a must that you ground it or at least try it, it literally transformed the switch and took it to another level.

I wish I grounded my cheap $30 switch before, so you may need to try grounding your switches first before buying anything. I am using the SMPS power supply, didn't experiment with anything else

 

Damn! Thanks for the reminder - time to order me a couple of these cheapish grounding boxes. 

 

@moussaobeid How long did it take to ship from Taiwan/China? 

[austinpop]

@moussaobeid @Cornan

 

So where in the end to end chain have you experimented with grounding boxes?

 

I know you've probably mentioned it in previous threads/posts, but thought I'd just ask.

[mozes]

Just now, austinpop said:

@moussaobeid @Cornan

 

So where in the end to end chain have you experimented with grounding boxes?

 

I know you've probably mentioned it in previous threads/posts, but thought I'd just ask.

I have so far 2 grounding boxes, The first one is connected to both my Nimitra chassis and the AQVOX switch chassis. I just got today the second box and I connected it to the Brooklyn phono ground which is connected to chassis. I will listen to it tomorrow with and without to see if it makes a difference.

 

This is the link for the grounding box http://www.ebay.ca/itm/322437668897?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[austinpop]

@moussaobeid

 

And how long in days did the 2 boxes take in shipping?

 

Wondering whether to spring for DHL.

[mozes]

24 minutes ago, austinpop said:

@moussaobeid

 

And how long in days did the 2 boxes take in shipping?

 

Wondering whether to spring for DHL.

It took around 10-12 days to Toronto, so most probably less time to the US

[austinpop]

33 minutes ago, moussaobeid said:

It took around 10-12 days to Toronto, so most probably less time to the US

 

Oh that's not bad at all.

[Cornan]

4 hours ago, moussaobeid said:

I just plugged in my AQVOX audiophile switch. I only listened to one track as a quick test, I got some improvement but not as I expected as the sound was already amazing with my setup (battery powered TP link bridge with Acoustic Revive ethernet isolator ). Initial impression is there is more weight to all the notes and a bit more relaxed sound. This was without grounding it, but then I grounded it to my cheapo Ebay grounding box and WAWWW! simply the transparency that I got is amazing, more decay to the notes and vocals are crystal clear.

Key learning: If you use this switch, it is a must that you ground it or at least try it, it literally transformed the switch and took it to another level.

I wish I grounded my cheap $30 switch before, so you may need to try grounding your switches first before buying anything. I am using the SMPS power supply, didn't experiment with anything else

 

Thanks Moussa! Great to know that the Aqvox switch improved that much with grounding as well! ? According to Aqvox there is no PSU that would beat their supplied SMPS. Nonetheless I am sure there is, but it might just prove to be more difficult to find. If I would try anything it would be a good powerful battery or a PSU with output floating relative to the safety ground (like the Gophert). This what I call proper galvanic isolation and explained here http://powersupply.blogs.keysight.com/2014/03/what-is-floating-power-supply-output.html

[Cornan]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

What kind of spike isolation and ripple does that Gophert have?

Check the link (included in the Gophert PSU name). There is a lot of specs there including ripple and noise. 

[Cornan]

2 hours ago, moussaobeid said:

@Cornan as per your recommendation to contact Michael at Elijah Audio, I actually proceeded and ordered two 15 cm cables, see attached pics, they should be here in another week or 10 days. The first one is exactly like your cable which I intend to use between the Intona and RUR and the second one between RUR and the Brooklyn which needs 5v bus, so I will test using an LPS-1 and a battery to have some fun there and see how it goes. Ultimately I know I will be getting either the upcoming  Uptone Iso Regen or the Sotm USB Ultra depending on the feedback to simplify the usb chain

Looking good! ? I hope you'll like them in your setup. If they will behave the same way for you they will present a clearer (from top to bottom), softer and more natural sound. The second one would be perfect to experiment on the ISO Reges input. Remember that these cables do similar things to the ISO Regen or Intona (but without adding anything) by removing the shielding, 5v and keeping the GND on a distance.

Anyway, keep me posted when you'll get them! ?

 

Personally I was a bit dissapointed that the ISO Regen required 5VBUS input (instead of self-powered input), but adding for example a LPS-1 as 5v power injection with the second Elijah Audio cable could potensially be the perfect solution! ?

 

 

[Cornan]

4 hours ago, moussaobeid said:

I have so far 2 grounding boxes, The first one is connected to both my Nimitra chassis and the AQVOX switch chassis. I just got today the second box and I connected it to the Brooklyn phono ground which is connected to chassis. I will listen to it tomorrow with and without to see if it makes a difference.

 

This is the link for the grounding box http://www.ebay.ca/itm/322437668897?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

@austinpop

Well, I have experimented with the grounding boxes for many years and have tried them where ever possible in my setups. A tip to were to put them is to follow the shielding, high frequency noise and AC/DC current paths. If you have a path that still is not 100% isolated you have found a good spot for it.

 

I have tried my grounding boxes on the following places:

1. DAC- digital ground (Spdif), analogue ground (RCA) & chassi ground

2. Laptop/pc- digital ground (USB), AC ground (safety ground pin) & chassi ground

3. Streamer- digital ground (USB & Spdif) & analogue ground (RCA)

4. Isolation transformer w/floating secondary- chassi ground

5. ATL DC blocker- chassi ground

6. Active speakers- digital ground (Spdif) & analogue ground (RCA)

7. Router- RJ45 ground (plastic chassi)

8. Network switch- chassi ground (metal chassi)

9. Hifi rack- chassi ground (attached to metal frame)

10. USB cables- Entreq´s own USB cables with shield drain

11. AC wall mains- safety ground pin in unused wall outlet

12. Integrated amp- analogue ground (RCA) & chassi ground

13. Preamp- analogue ground (RCA) & chassi ground

 

I tried it on a couple of spots more...but they are all unimportant so no need to add them to the list!

 

Anyway, the best spot is very system dependant, depending on overall isolation (ICs & AC/DC) and chassi material. For example when I used the router with plastic chassi with the supplied SMPS and no DC isolation on the input the grounding box made a huge difference in sq. When I added a fully galvanicly isolated LPS and a Axing DC blocker on the input (plus galvanicly isolated network cables ofcourse) the grounding box did´nt improve anymore. It actually made things a tiny bit worse. Now, if the router had a aluminium chassi it still would have made a big difference if grounding it via a chassi screw. 

 

My best spot right now is the network switch for sure (which have a metal chassi with a dedicated GND screw btw), but it have previously improved on all the above until I have fully isolated the paths. 

 

One thing that actually have troubled my mind is why my DAC does´nt improve anymore via the chassi screw when the network switch still do? I think I have got a THEORY!  The network swith is powered by a battery and is not connected to ac mains while in use. Fully isolated, right? My Dac is connected to the Peaktech 2240 which is a IT with a floating secondary. Fully isolated as well.

So what about my theory? When the batterypack is charging it is still connected to AC mains (and to the network switch) and possibly pollutes the network switch with static electricity. I THINK this could be the possible answer to why it still makes a difference, since the Peaktech 2240 ensures that my DAC is fully isolated 24hrs/day. 

To test my theory I will try my coming cheapeo Gophert bench supply on the network switch. If it still makes a difference with the grounding box I have proved my theory wrong!  

 

[austinpop]

7 hours ago, Cornan said:

@austinpop

Well, I have experimented with the grounding boxes for many years and have tried them where ever possible in my setups. A tip to were to put them is to follow the shielding, high frequency noise and AC/DC current paths. If you have a path that still is not 100% isolated you have found a good spot for it.

 

I have tried my grounding boxes on the following places:

1. DAC- digital ground (Spdif), analogue ground (RCA) & chassi ground

2. Laptop/pc- digital ground (USB), AC ground (safety ground pin) & chassi ground

3. Streamer- digital ground (USB & Spdif) & analogue ground (RCA)

4. Isolation transformer w/floating secondary- chassi ground

5. ATL DC blocker- chassi ground

6. Active speakers- digital ground (Spdif) & analogue ground (RCA)

7. Router- RJ45 ground (plastic chassi)

8. Network switch- chassi ground (metal chassi)

9. Hifi rack- chassi ground (attached to metal frame)

10. USB cables- Entreq´s own USB cables with shield drain

11. AC wall mains- safety ground pin in unused wall outlet

12. Integrated amp- analogue ground (RCA) & chassi ground

13. Preamp- analogue ground (RCA) & chassi ground

 

I tried it on a couple of spots more...but they are all unimportant so no need to add them to the list!

 

Anyway, the best spot is very system dependant, depending on overall isolation (ICs & AC/DC) and chassi material. For example when I used the router with plastic chassi with the supplied SMPS and no DC isolation on the input the grounding box made a huge difference in sq. When I added a fully galvanicly isolated LPS and a Axing DC blocker on the input (plus galvanicly isolated network cables ofcourse) the grounding box did´nt improve anymore. It actually made things a tiny bit worse. Now, if the router had a aluminium chassi it still would have made a big difference if grounding it via a chassi screw. 

 

My best spot right now is the network switch for sure (which have a metal chassi with a dedicated GND screw btw), but it have previously improved on all the above until I have fully isolated the paths. 

 

One thing that actually have troubled my mind is why my DAC does´nt improve anymore via the chassi screw when the network switch still do? I think I have got a THEORY!  The network swith is powered by a battery and is not connected to ac mains while in use. Fully isolated, right? My Dac is connected to the Peaktech 2240 which is a IT with a floating secondary. Fully isolated as well.

So what about my theory? When the batterypack is charging it is still connected to AC mains (and to the network switch) and possibly pollutes the network switch with static electricity. I THINK this could be the possible answer to why it still makes a difference, since the Peaktech 2240 ensures that my DAC is fully isolated 24hrs/day. 

To test my theory I will try my coming cheapeo Gophert bench supply on the network switch. If it still makes a difference with the grounding box I have proved my theory wrong!  

 

 

Thanks!! Most helpful. I'll snag a couple to try out...

[mozes]

37 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Thanks!! Most helpful. I'll snag a couple to try out...

I don't hear a significant improvement by grounding the Brooklyn like I heard with the Nimitra. Maybe because the Brooklyn is powered by VR mini which is disconnected from the mains whereas Nimitra is powered by the JS-2.

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Thanks!! Most helpful. I'll snag a couple to try out...

You are welcome Rajiv! ? 

[austinpop]

Not being a DIY cable-roller, I've asked the ebay seller to quote me on some alternate cables besides the crocodile clip default. I'm thinking an assortment of RCA, power, and USB terminations should give me the flexibility.

 

Have you guys seen my latest chain? I've gone to a bridged direct connection, got rid of the FMCs (better SQ without), gotten an sMS-200 (powered by LPS-1) to replace Aries Mini (with Auralic LPS), and currently evaluating Roon core as the server on my W10 bridged box, optimized with AO and Process Lasso. The full chain is in the sig.

 

For grounding locations, I was going to try:

1. the W10 desktop. I guess I can just use the default ground wire's crocodile clip to a chassis screw. Or plug in a USB port if I get a USB terminated ground wire.
2. Codex DAC via RCA ground wire
3. Cavalli amp - RCA ground wire, although may have a chassis ground lug available to crocodile clip to
4. Not sure it's advised to try it on the P5 regenerator.
5. sMS-200 - given it's already powered by LPS-1, doubt it'll help.

Your thoughts and suggestions welcomed.

[Cornan]

58 minutes ago, moussaobeid said:

I don't hear a significant improvement by grounding the Brooklyn like I heard with the Nimitra. Maybe because the Brooklyn is powered by VR mini which is disconnected from the mains whereas Nimitra is powered by the JS-2.

 

If the Brooklyn have isolated ICs and is powered by VR Mini you will likely be better off trying it elsewhere. A router, preamp, amps and safety ground pin (example on a power strip) is usually good spots for a grounding box. If you track down the spots which is not 100% isolated 24/7 from AC mains and on IC paths (ie. not full galvanic isolation) it will likely be a good spot for external grounding. You can also use the grounding box as a "tracker" by connecting it from spot to spot during listening sessions. You hear an instant improvement on a good spot.

[Cornan]

43 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Not being a DIY cable-roller, I've asked the ebay seller to quote me on some alternate cables besides the crocodile clip default. I'm thinking an assortment of RCA, power, and USB terminations should give me the flexibility.

 

Have you guys seen my latest chain? I've gone to a bridged direct connection, got rid of the FMCs (better SQ without), gotten an sMS-200 (powered by LPS-1) to replace Aries Mini (with Auralic LPS), and currently evaluating Roon core as the server on my W10 bridged box, optimized with AO and Process Lasso. The full chain is in the sig.

 

For grounding locations, I was going to try:

1. the W10 desktop. I guess I can just use the default ground wire's crocodile clip to a chassis screw. Or plug in a USB port if I get a USB terminated ground wire.
2. Codex DAC via RCA ground wire
3. Cavalli amp - RCA ground wire, although may have a chassis ground lug available to crocodile clip to
4. Not sure it's advised to try it on the P5 regenerator.
5. sMS-200 - given it's already powered by LPS-1, doubt it'll help.

Your thoughts and suggestions welcomed.

 

Yes, I have seen that you have left me all alone exploring the Aries Mini path! ?

As I have mentioned to you before I am not prepared to walk down the computer based audio path again. I have left it happy! ?

 

I think I'll need to check your spagetti image a little closer to give you suggestions where to add it. The crocodile clip is actually very useful. You can clip it to the RCA outer sockets (is. Spdif as well), you can clip it to the chassi/chassi screws & you can clip it to the USB sockets. Unfortunately US AC mains safety ground pin is not as convenient as EU Schuko versions and probably needs a special made cable. A suggestion would be to just get an additional cable with a US ac mains plug.

 

External grounding requires some experiments. I would certainly try it on the P5 if you have a spare socket or at the ac wall outlet where P5 is connected. Very likely a good spot for it! I wouldn't rule out that the LPS-1 feeder supply would benefit by being plugged into a grounded powerstrip either. 

However, if you have a router or a network switch I would start adding it there. The PC and the Cavalli amp could also be potensially good spots. Most important is to try it everywhere. You might be surprised where it makes the best improvement in your setup! ?

 

It is important to understand that it is perfectly safe to try it everywhere as long as you do not use it as the one and only safety ground path. This is not recommended and should never be done. As long as it is an additional grounding path it is very safe to use, even on the safety ground pin.

[mozes]

48 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

If the Brooklyn have isolated ICs and is powered by VR Mini you will likely be better off trying it elsewhere. A router, preamp, amps and safety ground pin (example on a power strip) is usually good spots for a grounding box. If you track down the spots which is not 100% isolated 24/7 from AC mains and on IC paths (ie. not full galvanic isolation) it will likely be a good spot for external grounding. You can also use the grounding box as a "tracker" by connecting it from spot to spot during listening sessions. You hear an instant improvement on a good spot.

I will follow your advice once I have everything in place with the new layout. I am

also getting 2 silver wires from Audiosensibility for grounding with bananas and spades terminations to try on different spots. 

 

Yes my brooklyn is isolated on both power and IC with the VR and LPS-1.

the switch is not so that explains the benefits I got with grounding. 

I will also try grounding my audience distribution box which has only Naim gear to see if it makes a difference 

[mozes]

54 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Not being a DIY cable-roller, I've asked the ebay seller to quote me on some alternate cables besides the crocodile clip default. I'm thinking an assortment of RCA, power, and USB terminations should give me the flexibility.

 

Have you guys seen my latest chain? I've gone to a bridged direct connection, got rid of the FMCs (better SQ without), gotten an sMS-200 (powered by LPS-1) to replace Aries Mini (with Auralic LPS), and currently evaluating Roon core as the server on my W10 bridged box, optimized with AO and Process Lasso. The full chain is in the sig.

 

For grounding locations, I was going to try:

1. the W10 desktop. I guess I can just use the default ground wire's crocodile clip to a chassis screw. Or plug in a USB port if I get a USB terminated ground wire.
2. Codex DAC via RCA ground wire
3. Cavalli amp - RCA ground wire, although may have a chassis ground lug available to crocodile clip to
4. Not sure it's advised to try it on the P5 regenerator.
5. sMS-200 - given it's already powered by LPS-1, doubt it'll help.

Your thoughts and suggestions welcomed.

Interesting updates to your system. I will check it out later tonight 

[mozes]

What I really want to test is to try a SMS-200 with Nimitra as a server and see how it performs. I guess I will wait for the new ultra  SMS-200 and then may pull the trigger.

@austinpop initially suggested this idea and I will be doing it in due time

[austinpop]

28 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

Yes, I have seen that you have left me all alone exploring the Aries Mini path! ?

As I have mentioned to you before I am not prepared to walk down the computer based audio path again. I have left it happy! ?

 

Yeah, I know! I was well on the path to NAS + endpoint = audio nurvana. Then @romaz came along and told me my equation was wrong.  Sometimes I wish I wasn't so open minded to empirical findings. But I can't deny that I heard an SQ improvement from:

• direct ethernet connection
• MinimServer on W10 box compared to NAS. Now I'm trying Roon, and can't say definitively it sounds better on the W10 box compared to my NAS, but I'd need to add an SSD to my NAS to get good Roon performance, so I won't try that route. Plus this:
• I found an SQ improvement optimizing the W10 box with AO/PL. Even though it's a ControlPC (only running music server), not an AudioPC.

I still have the Mini, but will likely put it up for sale once I get organized. I need to have a spring sale - have a bunch of cables, accessories and what not laying about. You guys know the feeling!

 

28 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I think I'll need to check your spagetti image a little closer to give you suggestions where to add it. The crocodile clip is actually very useful. You can clip it to the RCA outer sockets (is. Spdif as well), you can clip it to the chassi/chassi screws & you can clip it to the USB sockets. Unfortunately US AC mains safety ground pin is not as convenient as EU Schuko versions and probably needs a special made cable. A suggestion would be to just get an additional cable with a US ac mains plug.

 

External grounding requires some experiments. I would certainly try it on the P5 if you have a spare socket or at the ac wall outlet where P5 is connected. Very likely a good spot for it! I wouldn't rule out that the LPS-1 feeder supply would benefit by being plugged into a grounded powerstrip either. 

However, if you have a router or a network switch I would start adding it there. The PC and the Cavalli amp could also be potensially good spots. Most important is to try it everywhere. You might be surprised where it makes the best improvement in your setup! ?

 

It is important to understand that it is perfectly safe to try it everywhere as long as you do not use it as the one and only safety ground path. This is not recommended and should never be done. As long as it is an additional grounding path it is very safe to use, even on the safety ground pin.

 

Thanks. I'll try that. Not sure I can use the crocodile on the USB jack though.

[austinpop]

10 minutes ago, moussaobeid said:

What I really want to test is to try a SMS-200 with Nimitra as a server and see how it performs. I guess I will wait for the new ultra  SMS-200 and then may pull the trigger.

@austinpop initially suggested this idea and I will be doing it in due time

 

I too am waiting on the sMS-200 Ultra and the tX-USB Ultra, but decided to get the sMS-200 anyway for now, The Ultra's will likely be in the $1k-1200 range each, so may be rather expensive, when you factor in the fact they may need more juice than an LPS-1 can provide.

 

And of course, if Alex offers some sweet combo deal on ISO-Regen+LPS-1, it will be hard to resist.

 

It's a great time to be a ... oh, you get the idea.

[mozes]

5 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I too am waiting on the sMS-200 Ultra and the tX-USB Ultra, but decided to get the sMS-200 anyway for now, The Ultra's will likely be in the $1k-1200 range each, so may be rather expensive, when you factor in the fact they may need more juice than an LPS-1 can provide.

 

And of course, if Alex offers some sweet combo deal on ISO-Regen+LPS-1, it will be hard to resist.

 

It's a great time to be a ... oh, you get the idea.

I have one extra LPS-1 lying around doing nothing! I want to use it somehow somewhere, I don't want to sell it, I know I will need it sometime.

If each ultra will be $1K then that is expensive!

[jcn3]

16 hours ago, moussaobeid said:

@Cornan as per your recommendation to contact Michael at Elijah Audio, I actually proceeded and ordered two 15 cm cables, see attached pics, they should be here in another week or 10 days. The first one is exactly like your cable which I intend to use between the Intona and RUR and the second one between RUR and the Brooklyn which needs 5v bus, so I will test using an LPS-1 and a battery to have some fun there and see how it goes. Ultimately I know I will be getting either the upcoming  Uptone Iso Regen or the Sotm USB Ultra depending on the feedback to simplify the usb chain

 

those are fabulous looking cables!  clearly a high quality product.

[mozes]

Came across this interesting tweak, quantum stickers by Telos Audio. You can check it out here http://www.telos-audio.com.tw/pd_new.html

 

Scroll down a bit and you will see it