A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, Monge said:

Guys,

Can someone please recommend a good USB memory stick for the headless Audiolinux boot? And how many GB?

 

@tapatrick Which version of the headless Audiolinux are you using for the diskless NUC? 

It would be very nice if you could make a guide for us.?

 

I find the audiolinux webside very frustrating.

But I am really trying hard to read and understand while waiting for the hardware to arrive.

Cheers

Any usb stick should do as it gets removed when AL loaded in Ram. I used a Sandisk Cruz 32gb one I had. 

 

Will post how I set it up in next few days. 

 

Audiolinux headless 1 year support with image is  $ 49

Audiolinux Lxqt gui version is included which I found useful to start with but you can go straight to the headless version. 

This is the headless image to burn on the usb. 

audiolinux_mini_03.img.gz

[tapatrick]

4 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

A few notes on where I am up to:...

This really is putting the cat amongst the pigeons!

 

Thanks M, I was wondering how you are getting on

 

I'm also still running mine in and experimenting while waiting for 5.5/2.5 plugs so I can power with a PH SR4 at 12v. I will report more later when fully assessed.
 

I have to say that this setup has moved the goal posts for me by quite a margin already in the best possible way.

[tapatrick]

3 hours ago, Dev said:

 

I had the Bridge-1 and indeed found the USB sounds better when the card is removed. The DS even sounds better with the I2S input if you take the trouble of getting a DDC along with quality psu - another device in the chain in the name of SQ ?

 

I can't wait to load their new firmware snowmass....

Agree @dev about the I2S input to PS audio DACs. I’ve found it better generally than the USB that’s why I built my DIY I2S streamer. However now I’m back to usb again with the NUC and finding it superb.  You never know where this journey is going next.

 

Down the line I’ll be looking out how to tap I2S from an NUC. 

[tapatrick]

22 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Fans have no fans here.

what did one NUC say to the other... "I'm a big metal fan" 

[tapatrick]

12 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

 

Free international shipping is slow but it's gonna cost $8.09 on November 11th

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/PoE-World-8-Port-Security-Power-over-Ethernet-Passive-injector-Mid-span-PoE-Injector-Network-for/32897304783.html

 

36AWG UTP cables for the sake of skin effect

 

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=34238

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-SlimRun-Cat6-Ethernet-Patch-Cable-5ft-Red-Stranded-550MHz-UTP-36AWG-/232978708533

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-SlimRun-Cat6-Ethernet-Patch-Cable-5ft-Blue-Stranded-550MHz-UTP-36AWG/392156001257

 

Wire Gauge and Current Limits Including Skin Depth and Strength

https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

monoprice 36awg cables in the UK..

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Monoprice-SlimRun-Cat6A-Ethernet-Patch/dp/B078JX6728/ref=sr_1_1?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1541846184&sr=1-1&keywords=monoprice+pure+bare+copper+wire+5+ft%2C+36awg

 

or UTP but only up to 30awg

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Monoprice-SlimRun-Cat6A-Ethernet-Patch/dp/B01N41GTGT/ref=sr_1_2?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1541846847&sr=1-2&keywords=monoprice%2Bpure%2Bbare%2Bcopper%2Bwire%2BUTP&th=1

 

and calculators to work out awg, voltage, length and current..

https://www.inchcalculator.com/voltage-drop-calculator/

https://www.wirebarn.com/Combined-Wire-Gauge-Calculator_ep_42.html

https://www.wirebarn.com/Wire-Calculator-_ep_41.html

 

 

[tapatrick]

On 11/6/2018 at 8:45 PM, Dev said:

 

I will report back whenever its released.

its out.. :0. who says OS change don't make a difference...

 

"Ted Smith has done it again. A major breakthrough in the art of digital audio. Over this weekend we have been beta testing our newest operating system for our DirectStream DAC, Snowmass, and the reviews are flooding in:

“listening and it is scary – black background with delicate sounds, then the sax… this sound stage is just unbelievable! That track is like velvet textures on a very smooth and dark background. Man is the background black!”

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/listening-is-scary/#comment-94814

 

 

[tapatrick]

As several folks got in touch with me curious to hear my opinion, here is my assessment of using the NUC with Audiolinux.

 

Once again big thanks to @lmitche and @romaz!

 

I have a NUC7CJYH running Audiolinux headless in Ramboot set to Extreme mode - no hard drives. This all loads automatically when the NUC is switched on. I put the NUC in a fanless Akasa case which I found makes a noticeable impact on SQ versus the standard case with fan. I have a USPCB/ISO Regen/USPCB between my NUC and DAC. This is powered at 5v ( 8v from modded Teradak PSU into 7.5v then 5v LT3045 regulators)

 

The NUC is powered by a Paul Hynes SR4 using Tubelover2’s discovery of PoE DC cables - in my case with Audioquest Forest Cat7 used for positive and Ugreen flat Cat 7 used for negative. Bios have been tweaked to switch off Wifi, Bluetooth - anything uneccessary that I could find. All of these tweaks add to the final result.

 

A bit of Background:

As we all have different preferences I’ll briefly describe mine. I love intimate, live guitar and singer songwriters - Eva Cassidy, Glen Hansard, Jeff Buckley, King Creosote, Van Morrison stuff like this as well as jazz trios and quartets. Hence my choice of Aqvox Switch, PS Audio Directstream Junior DAC, Decware mono amps and Omega Super Alnicos, as they excel in the kind of music I like. I have found it very hard to achieve satisfaction with treble in voices and have spent a lot of time and money to improve on this (apart from sibilance due to poor quality of recordings which I try to avoid).

 

Seeking a solution and to make use of the I2S slot into my DAC, which I consider the best input, I had researched and built my own Roon I2S endpoint. This is based on a Sparky SBC running customised dietpi - isolated and reclocked with Ian Canada’s McFifo and McDualXO boards and powered by SR4s and modded Teradak DC30 into LT3045 regulators, silver wire etc. I have used this endpoint for the last year or so being very happy with the result. As I invested so much time and effort in this I was so hoping it would still better the NUC...

 

Conclusion

SO….The new NUC set up has moved the goal posts for me in a significant way.. I agree with Larry and Romaz when they say this is end game territory and is based on my trials and listening tests over the past few weeks. 

 

The most striking quality is an ease that is very satisfying. There is a tremendous amount of detail arising in a deep rich black landscape with a more distinct 3D soundstage and well defined individual musicians and instruments. I had enough detail already with my set up but it's the EASE that strikes me the most with the NUC. Emotionally I find this very satisfying and compelling.

 

I’ll probably keep an eye out for how to get I2S out of an NUC and upcoming switches from Uptone etc but this set up is delivering the best sound I have had. The new PS audio OS ‘Snowmass' is coming very soon for my DAC and its getting rave reviews for the Directstream users, so as far as audio goes it can’t get much better than this.

 

Cheers all - back to the glorious music..

[tapatrick]

21 minutes ago, Blake said:

 

Thanks for posting your feedback.  One follow-up question- are you hearing more detail, or the same amount of detail, just presented in a more relaxed manner?

You are welcome...there is more detail for sure, more nuances. What I find most striking is how details make spaces around musicians tangible and the sense of the room where recordings have been made is there. I imagine this is due to the rendering of subtle reflections. I can only describe this as more emotionally satisfying - not just sterile detail

[tapatrick]

11 hours ago, lmitche said:

Patrick,

 

Your description is terrific. I'm really enjoying live recordings as well, feeling like I'm in the room. There is a natural feeling to the sound that is just spine tingling. I'm having a tough time turning the system off.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

Larry

 

P.S. Checkout either one or both of the Cowboy Junkies live Trinity and Trinity Revisited Sessions on the NUC. Just fantastic!

many thanks Larry, I'll check out the Cowboy Junkies tonight.

 

With live music, to have the venue come more to life at home is indeed a revelation especially with something like Van Morrisons classic live album 'It's too late to stop now' ..

 

I always want to get closer to music, to the soul of the musician, for me it's purely emotional. So (probably like you) I'm staying up way too late these days as the NUC setup is so fabulous. 

[tapatrick]

12 hours ago, Middy said:

My case coming tomorrow, cheers for the tip. Did you remove the WIFI card as you dont need it( just a thought) if that adds anything even turned off??

Any tips for assembly let us know.

Hopefully Ted at PS new snowmass is the icing on the cake and happy

christ-snow-mass for you mate.

The audio elves are busy this year..

Thanks

Dave.

Hi Dave, I didn't remove the wifi card just switched off in Bios, but that might be a good idea to remove.

 

The most difficult part I found was getting the motherboard out of the old case. Once you have taken out the holding screws and disconnected the cables, it's necessary to pull the sides of the chassis out slightly so that the plugs etc can clear the chassis in order to slide out. The video posted further back in the thread is excellent help. Also make sure to use gloves and/or grounding strap.

 

Yes it certainly seems like Xmas has come early..:)

[tapatrick]

15 hours ago, Blake said:

 

..are you hearing more detail, or the same amount of detail, just presented in a more relaxed manner?

to be more precise, yes more detail and more relaxed..

[tapatrick]

13 minutes ago, Monge said:

Thanks for your report. Great ?

May I ask you, what’s your source? Rooonserver?

I have an Antipodes DXe server as my Roon server and streaming Tidal

Cheers

[tapatrick]

11 hours ago, Middy said:

Just got the Akasa chassis for the NUC. Celeron

If you Tapatrick or others are inclined or bothered! the Block isnt very good. Its just fly cutter milled roughly. Rub a nail across it. Just google 'Lapping a cpu heatsink'. A good CPU heat sink is like glass. + flat.

This makes it flatter for more surface area to transfer heat. Have a look, not that hard.

Remove the cheap silicone grease and apply a carbon TIM like Artic mx4 . 'Non conductive' if you make a mistake.

Screw back in lightly diagonal and tighten for even pressure.

I won't do a guide, IT guys here know over clocking. But simple techniques make the case earn its money. Especially + celeron/pentium chips like i3 i5.  

No over clocking but a cooler cpu. GFX

 

All fun and something else too play with.

Flat is better than super smooth.

Food for thought !!and should help keep it cooler.

Dave

 

 

 

 

good info Dave, thanks.

[tapatrick]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

There are so many things that I don't understand

There's a world within in me that I cannot explain

Many rooms to explore but the doors look the same

I am lost I can't even remember my name...

 

love it!  

[tapatrick]

 

Further thoughts on NUC/AL and listening experiences

What  a lot happened overnight! I’m reading all this with great interest and pondering what the expressions of OMG&WOW can mean for those who proclaim it on this thread and secondary why the need for some to try to discredit all as Fairy Tales.

 

Context

Last night I went to hear The Tord Gustavsen Trio on the opening night of the London Jazz festival. This was at the lovely Cadogan Hall in Chelsea, a beautiful venue. The concert was an extraordinary aural treat of meditative nordic mastery and I was as always listening intently to the live sound. 

 

Being an acoustic piano, drums and double bass trad trio I mostly heard the sound direct as it filled the venue so there was a natural sublime sound quality. 

 

The wonderful support duo was an albanian singer and guitarist Elina Duni & Rob Luft. The singer was amplified and again some of her voice was heard direct but I noticed how the trailing amplified ssssss’s in her voice still had a trace of what I am always trying to remove from my system at home. 

 

The revelation to me was that this obviously did not matter at all as the live music was not defined by this minor detail. Live music is all around, immersive, direct and when good its an uplifting, ecstatic emotional journey.

 

OMG WTF WOW FAIRY TALE

The night before, (in the light of recently reporting earlier in the thread how amazing my NUC running Audiolinux/Extreme/Ramboot/Roonbridge is) I had loaded AL/GUI in Ram mode on my MacBook Pro to run as a roonserver to serve the NUC endpoint. 

 

This was just a quick trial and I was not prepared for what happened. This was my OMG/WTF/WOW/ moment. I say this without hesitation. I have spend many years of time and money, researching, listening, isolating, clean powering, testing and tweaking by homing in on certain aspects of sound quality with some significant progress by my standards.

 

The combo of the Mac/AL server and NUC/AL endpoint is truly a revelation. This isn’t even set up the way I intend with AL/Headless/Ramboot and without any special cables, just connected via a thunderbolt/ethernet plug and a no name 5 metre cat cable to my router. 

 

The music is Alive

How this relates to the above story is that the quality of live music, as mentioned with Larry previously, is what I am now hearing at home. There are aspects of the voice that are not perfect and I’m now understanding that recording and amplification will always add a degree of artefact to the sound, and I'm not pretending that my system now sounds equal to the concert at the Cadogan Hall BUT the ambience, reverberations, nuances are in the WOW/OMG category - as the pianist shifts and strokes the keys, how the guitarist plucks strings, how the wood on the double bass squeaks, how breath sounds.

 

All these details are heard AND much more importantly carried in an atmosphere of being ALIVE. The sound of air pulsating with music is spine tingling and spooky NOT JUST THE DETAIL or black background, or etc ALONE. I’m not sure how this can be yet, and more trials and tests are on the cards but whatever is going on I highly recommend you try in order to see and feel for yourself, not just rely on beliefs and theories...

 

[tapatrick]

11 hours ago, lmitche said:

Patrick,

 

Your writeup completely echoes my experience here. In reading it, I thought of a different way to express the experience. Here goes:

 

Our brains act as filters and we cannot possibly observe everything that is happening around us. We use our attention and concentration to focus on things that matter in the moment.

 

As an observer of a live musical event, I always seem to move my attention from player to player or from one singer to another singer to player and so on. Sometimes this happens by the design of the music, other times I'll use my concentration to change focus to what interests me. One thing is always true, there is more information available than I can process as a whole. 

 

No doubt, the sound of the NUC and AL running in a dual PC configuration with Roon in bit perfect mode has achieved this level of playback. I can play the same track over and over and hear different details each time. (Warning this also makes studios albums less exciting.) Live orchestral music can be thrilling with so much to hear.

 

BTW - I am using high end speakers here. I'm not sure the same level can be attained with headphones.

 

What do you think Patrick? Do you like this description?

 

Larry

 

P.S. OMG do I miss West London! I've been to Cadogan Hall many times. 

 

 

Larry, thats cool you used to enjoy the Cadogan Hall too!

Yes I'd agree with your way of describing how we listen. Of course at a live event there is the spectacle too to enjoy. We have the ability to focus in on a performer, or even one aspect of a performer or instrument, then zoom out to absorb the whole sound. I tend to do the latter, close my eyes and feel/listen to the whole sound which envelopes the mind and body.

 

This correlates with the way the 2 hemispheres in our brain perceive  differently, we can isolate and focus and/or hear/see the whole. (OT but see 'The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World by Iain Mcgilchrist)

 

My point about noticing the trailing sssss's in the amplified singers voice made me reconsider what I have been obsessing about and trying to fix. Once the 'full blown' immersive sound appeared with the NUC/AL roon server and roon endpoint, and attending this live event I understand how audio/music should really be, how it should feel, and where my attention should be. As this was absent inevitably I was looking to fix and tweak endlessly.

 

I spent the day lost in music and couldn't tear my self away. Tomorrow hopefully I'll get some house things done...

[tapatrick]

8 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

This is the same experience I had.  It's good to get confirmation and validation from others that I'm not crazy.

Thanks!

Me too!

[tapatrick]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

....."are you sure you're not just hearing what Rob Watts calls RF noise?"....

I'm sure 'I'm not just hearing what Rob Watts calls RF noise' because everything is bigger, better, fuller.... what else can folks say here to get others to try and find out for themselves...  but I could be deluded...

[tapatrick]

9 minutes ago, Narcissus said:

Would be interesting to know if the Akasa Newton JC chassis indeed makes a difference. Perhaps Larry & Patrick could chime in..

Yes I found it makes a significant difference and definitely worth doing. 

 

Interesting that using my MacBook Pro as AL roonserver booting in Ram (it’s only a temporary solution for now), the extreme mode sounds worse (relatively) that BFQ mode in RAM. This is because the fan goes crazy in extreme mode and I assume adds a lot of noise. Therefore getting the fan and hard drives out of the equation is essential. 

 

See @Middy input on concerns about quality of heat sinks in some Fanless cases. 

[tapatrick]

9 hours ago, MrUnderhill said:

The sound quality is brilliant.... better than dCS I think... 

?

Thanks M! A statement to make audiophiles sit up and pay attention. The DCS is a $4000 endpoint I believe..

[tapatrick]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

Lemitche said he didnt try different hardware and that different hardware may work just as good...

Why don't you try it out on what you have at hand and report back to add to the knowledge base shared here...

[tapatrick]

3 minutes ago, Forehaven said:

Oh No!! ;))  Does this quad core NUC Larry use the same Akasa case as the dual core?

 NUC7CJYH and NUC7CJYH use the same Akasha fanless case

https://www.scan.co.uk/products/akasa-newton-jc-fanless-low-profile-case-8th-generation-intel-nuc-june-canyon-25-hdd-ssd
Compatible with the following Intel® NUC Boards:
NUC7CJYH / NUC7PJYH / NUC7PJYB

[tapatrick]

7 hours ago, Soma said:

Interesting results. Need help.

 

I have bought AL about 3 weeks before along with desktop HQP and had some initial difficulties setting it up on macbook pro. Finally everything resolved (thanks to Piero) and now able to boot from RAM in Macbook Pro (Mid 2015 model with it processor and 8GB RAM).

 

Roon core is in Synology NAS --> HQP as NAA in AL Macbook Pro ----> ultraRendu --> DAC

 

So far experience I felt like above setup recessed the music overall (took out the sparkle) as compared to Roon direct setup (Synology NAS ----> ultraRendu --> DAC). I am not sure it is because it Macbook Pro or my setting is incorrect? Or I should directly try with NUC? Any experience AL and HQP on macbook pro?

I see you are using your MBPro as an endpoint. Personally I wouldn't do that as its a very noisy computer for an endpoint just before your DAC (as in adding noise to the audio stream).

 

As I posted a while back - I have tried my MBPro with AL Headless/Ramboot as roonserver streaming to an NUC7CJYH/AL/Roonbridge/Headless/Ramboot with outstanding results.

 

If you can get yourself an NUC as endpoint. It has been stated here many times that this is the essential starting point, and for many the end game too as its such a leap in sound quality. For the money it's a truly shocking discovery given how much cash many of us have come to accept as necessary to get improvements.

 

I have tried my MBPro (as server) closer to my NUC and DAC (thinking this would have been even better) and attached directly to my Aqvox switch. To my surprise the sound collapsed. It is much better sounding 5 metres away from my system and connected to router>switch>NUC>DAC. This was just a temporary trial as its not practical to use my laptop for this sole duty. I have another NUC on order to use as roon server which I will report back on soon. It will be interesting to compare the new NUC with my Antipodes DXe which is also built around a Celeron processor.

[tapatrick]

19 minutes ago, Soma said:

Thank you @tapatrickand @lmitche

I have attached screenshot of Roon and HQP setting. Roon server is in NAS and HQP desktop is in AL. Backend of HQP is NAA, device is ultraRendu. This setting is not optimum. Anyway, I guess I will try NUC as endpoint and report back. 

Thanks @Soma I misunderstood your setup and see you are not using your MBPro as an endpoint.

[tapatrick]

16 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

LoL I bought the celeron NUC a while back for £125, now the same supplier Scan has put the price up to £199. Great black Friday deals - Not.

yep.. thats how algorithms work when there is a run on something!