A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[bobfa]

1 minute ago, hifi25nl said:

Yes, but that will not solve the problem. 

Sorry I was suggesting a little cookbook step by step to not confuse folks

 

So the process would be:

Stop audio services from menu

go to console

pacman to check and yaourt to update as above; menu to go back to the menu

start audio services

ramsave if you are in RAM.  

 

A little cookbook step process to “make sure” it is done right.  

[bobfa]

Today I tried to test to see if the length of the cable between the server and the endpoint made a difference in sound. 

 

I moved my Sonic Transporter and the HDPlex 200 power supply up to the living room and put them in the rack with the rest of the gear.  I started with a 1m Transparent Audio HP ethernet and then moved to a 15ft cat 6 cable between the server and the endpoint.  The HDPLEX power supply was hooked to the power filter system with a Transparent HP power cord.  For reference, the server is usually in the basement with about 50ft of generic in-wall CAT 6 cable.  

 

Everything I listened to had this edge to it.  Some would call it glare???  It was uncomfortable.  Due to the sound, I decided not to build a 50ft jumper to test.  I do not know precisely what was going on.  I did not look at any network or diagnostics, etc.   I moved the server back to the basement 4 hours later!

 

Now it was bad timing as Roon had just updated to 1.6 and I moved the system, so two things changed so I had to move back to the original state to ensure that the software change was not the problem.    When I returned the server to the basement, I discovered that I had the two ethernet ports uses swapped.  I had the endpoint on left instead of the right.  

 

What I was trying to listen for is if I could find a difference in ethernet cable length caused sonic differences.  I think something else is going on...  I am not sure we have any value from my testing today, but there it is!  I call it failing faster.

 

 

[bobfa]

4 minutes ago, mikicasellas said:

Hi Guys,

 

Would this be the right way to make this "Bridge Connection" in my set up?

 

Thank you!

That is the way I have done it before.  

[bobfa]

The bridge is in software in the server.  

 

NETWORK —> JSSG Switch —> (one Enet)(Server Software bridge) (second Enet) —> —>—> (OXCO Switch)—> Endpoint 

 

 

The OXCO switch is located near the endopoint 

 

Bob

[bobfa]

On 2/24/2019 at 5:49 PM, mikicasellas said:

AL with the Isolated cores, sound is more precise but less forgiving, a little on the "harsh" side with some records, is this finding the regular consensus?

I had only tried isolating cores for a couple of days.  My results echo your statement above.  I did not test long enough.  When I messed with the NUC doing this I had done a couple of other things and there were too many changes so I backed them all off and had not gotten back to isolation yet.  There were some recent changes to the AL menu for isolation that I want to understand and go back and try after I complete my server testing.

[bobfa]

SGR,

 

In the original post there are a series of links to the lead areas for different subjects.  There are several branches for AudioLinux and more.  I have posted a couple of new threads on building servers and endpoints. @lmitche has a thread on AL server software as examples.  I feel your pain.  This is a people and platform use problem that is not simply solved.  I have mis -posted or talked about an OT item on. A thread.  (This is OT).   

[bobfa]

14 minutes ago, chauphuong said:

Is this possible to install audiolinux on a Raspberry Pi2?

If you go look at http://www.audio-linux.com/#GUIDE.  The pi3 version is listed.   You could ask @hifi25nl who is the author.

 

[bobfa]

1 hour ago, the_doc735 said:

would this be better as a server than a synology ds218+, W/LPSU,...

I do not think that anyone can accurately answer your query.  I want to generalize some of the findings on this thread but it is hard.  So this is an experiment. These are my words not a consensus from the community.

 

Bob’s server design considerations

 

1. Power supplies in servers make a difference.  Replacing a standard PC power supply with an LPS makes a difference.

2. Simplifying the PC by removing noisy components seems to help.  No SATA devices.  Storage is more complex.

3. Get the fans out.  Fan drivers are part of the noise we have seen in many systems.

4. The operating system makes a difference.  There is a lot of experimenting with Audio Linux these days that really seems to work well.

5. I think that using a more powerful processor can improve sound.  This may be a latency thing like operating system changes, MAY??

6. Network bridging still helps. So two network interfaces in the server.

 

Bob’s system design considerations

 

1. Designing some sort of cleaner interface for storage seems to help.  Special USB cards, external drives with linear power supplies.  

2. Network designs to the primary system with WiFi, fiber, special switches adds to the mix influences sound.

3. Network bridges to the USB DAC are part of the extended system mix.

4. Again software design. Playing with Squeezelite in the endpoint

5. Running operating systems in RAM, loading music into RAM, all very interesting.

5. Endpoint clocking, etc.

 

*** this does not even get into, speakers, amps, analog cables, headphones,  The stuff that makes sound.***

**** Oh and there is the room.  Look at what @Superdad did for his room or many others ****

***** Finally why are you doing this? *****

 

So what do you want to experiment with?

 

All of this takes time and money, and well a lot of grit.  You have to listen carefully and involve others.  You have to take time, document and be critical.  If you read what @austinpop has been doing with DACs you get an idea of the level of work this is.  If you look at what @hifi25nl has done with Audiolinix you will see some of the work that goes into OS design.  There are so many others to mention, including Chris for putting up with this rabble!  I know that I am a bit crazy playing in several parts of world to get something better for myself and my customers.  I have built both a server and an endpoint here for others to see.  I am not going to write an OS for example.  I really like what @austinpop has done with DACs and his endpoint design with the clocks, etc.

 

So what do you want to do?  Where do you want to spend time?  Step back from it for a bit.  I do systems designs for people as a business, and this is the hard part!  Slowing down long enough to get it right.  You can have someone like @lmitche build you a server or an endpoint,  you can built it on your own.  You could go commercial.  Open your thinking out a bit.

 

Do not answer your own question today or even tomorrow.  Come back next week with a plan.  Create a Trello project, or put it on paper.  Put 20 hours into just listening to music.

 

Bob

[bobfa]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

Brilliant post, Bob. Sage advice indeed. 

Note to self:  Follow my own advice!  

 

I am "driven" and I have a set of long and short term goals in mind.  You will see my proposal about building NUC based experimental hardware.  There is so much more to do and learn.  What is new today is old-hat and in the gutter tomorrow.

 

In the end, I have never lost sight of the fact that I love music in my life.  I still do not have a way that makes it simple for family members to play music on the system.  I would love to have something like Siri or Alex interaction with the system.  I want SoundCloud and YouTube.  I want my room to sound better.

 

Like most everyone else I have to pay for my toys!  

 

[Soundtrack from the movie Titanic playing right now]

[bobfa]

3 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

Good post "BUT!" I didn't ask how to build a NUC or highlight important considerations! I asked if a PC D.I.Y. build could be a better server than a synology NAS? All you needed to say was: "I'm not qualified to make a call like that".

I don't agree with the 20 hours listening experience either. For me it's more about the immediacy, the stark contrast and initial impact that a change in a system/chain makes when you first experience it. I know within a few bars of music whether I have made things better or worse. If I listened incessantly to the album over and over again there is a risk that my ears would become accustomed to a particular flavour of sound and end up convincing myself that it is better - when in actual fact all that has happened is I have simply become accustomed to that sound, things have become very 'familiar'. It hits me straight away from the gut or it doesn't hit me at all - ever!

But I do appreciate your lengthy involvement and somewhat technical explanation - many thanks!

So, do you actually design and build your own PCB's and furnish them with your chosen components and then fabricate a housing? OR do you buy a NUC and prefabricated case and put them together yourself. I'm a bit vague on how you make/build endpoints and servers? Hope you can enlighten me as to your procedure?

Cheers!

 

First, I really wish you would tone down some of your messaging.  I do not know if we are helping each other out here.  Also, this is getting off topic for the thread.

 

I do not feel that there is a single answer to the multitude of questions that were buried in your  first question.  I know that a custom built server will blow away general purpose Synology NAS in the right environment. I have done that exact test in my own system.  If that answers your question more directly.  

 

As for what I am looking at I would only be dealing with the Intel NUC board.  I am not trying to build my own boards. Only single sourcing a system design.  There is a thread on this I just started.  This is all just a vision for now. 

 

 

 I just looked at your profile and you seem to have a rather extensive system design.  I cannot tell from that or your recent posts what you are trying to accomplish.  You might consider starting a thread about what you are trying to accomplish.

 

Finally, you asked a question about the NUC and RAM operations.  We really do not know all of the effects of upstream gear at this point. I do not know of a production system in a D to D endpoint where both the OS and the data stream are actually in RAM at all times.  I do know from my own work running Roon in both my own custom server and endpoint that having the operating system loaded and running in RAM improves sound quality.  I created two threads on the hardware I built.    

 

 

I have participated in this thread for a long time and there is so much here that just cannot be distilled down into yes or no questions.  We need HELP and more people experimenting and testing, listening and documenting their results.  My summary above was more than a simple response to your request.  It was an attempt to summarize in my view the current state of the flow here.  I can see a lot of ways to continue experimenting. 

[bobfa]

15 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

tone down? I just asked a question, I didn't swear, I wasn't rude and I didn't threaten anyone. And I said many thanks. I don't understand this at all?

It is not off topic at all as I am asking about NUC/AL/RAM/endpoint/server & PC experimentation, why is that off topic please?

 

multitude? Surely all I asked was: "is a PC DIY server better than a stock synology NAS", how is that a multitude please?

 

I am trying to accomplish hearing a sound that I am happy with. I don't know how starting a thread saying what I wish to accomplish would attract any positive remarks going on the way austinpop addressed me in post #13318. He also seems to think that I am violent, rude and threatening, even though I HAVE NEVER been like that on here! I also said sorry and apologised to him too.

 

But there are some questions that can be answered with yes or no, like the one I asked austinpop. (e.g. is O/S & music in RAM on your NUC/AL device).

 

Again I am very sorry and apologise but all I am doing is answering the points raised in your posts! There is nothing intentionally hostile or belligerent in those questions and replies.

 

Sorry! 

 

"DOC'. etal

 

Please, please slow down a little.  Maybe we have a difference in the Kings English vs US English.  I learn in a different manner. And forget in more ways than I should.  I am trying to help here.

 

First "DOC" your question is not yes or no it is VERY COMPLEX.  We do not know the answer to a lot of them.  The custom server vs NAS is basically a no contest.  You can build a server that sounds better than a NAS.  Your specific selection of components would be impossible for us to respond to.  So I tried to summarize about two years of history here about servers and systems in general. An example in your list is the power supply.  That was not optimal; some sort of linear power supply would change things.  Does this help?

 

The NUC RAM/AL question is even more complex.  We do not have "THE" answer.  For example the playback software is a black box we do not understand how it works.  The network interfaces to the various devices in our systems and how they interact to influence sound are sometimes unfathomable.  Changing the software from Roon to squeezelite changes the sound.  Changing the buffers in squeezelite changes the sound.  Slow processors with carefully designed boards and interfaces are amazing.  Today, just maybe, a specific off the shelf mother board from Intel may be better.

 

I can design a  (have designed) systems that sound great.  But every day we learn more and more.  What has been right just a year ago is not right today and what is right today will change tomorrow.  This thread and several others are on the bleeding edge of our learning.  If you came to me today and said "Bob what sounds the best?"  My answer would have to be very well thought out.  I would consider the person, budget, location, current system design.  A system I outlined last year might not be optimal for today.  My personal system is in constant flux.  I have reached the limits of my speakers and my room.  What will I change next?

 

Get some rest, have a good evening. 

 

Bob

[bobfa]

8 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Hi Bob,

 

I'm using an NAS as the file server.  Please show me the way to build a DIY file  server to outperform it.  Thank you.

 

 

OK Above is what I have been doing.  In my system these have been wonderful.  There is so much further we can go and in so many other directions.  These two builds are my personal interepretation of what seems to be a trend on this forum.  I will bet that something else will be better.  I bet that If I re-do the power supplies to remove the internal DC-DC ATX on the server I can do better.  Lots of things to bet on!  I bet that a year from now we will find yet another way.

 

I am standing on the shoulders of many others here.  While my idea is to make better sound for my system, I have more of a mission to help others do the same. My business is helping people with technology.  This is fun with technology.

 

Here are just some of the things I am thinking about:

 

• I wonder if splitting Cores for audio use will sound better.
• Both of these designs are very DIY and others cannot do that work.   How do I solve that?
• I am floating another idea where I get ready-built NUCs built to my spec.  
• I still want to build a NUC as a server vs my Xeon.  Is the NUC “good enough?”
• I am waiting for some hardware to put a fiber networking card that should work with AL in my Xeon.  
• I found a way that we might try an M.2 fiber networking card in a NUC.
• I want it to play more with Wireless in the endpoint.  Others are VERY happy with this.
• I discovered today that Euphony Linux does YouTube.  What else?  Expensive but not to hard to trial for SQ.
• I am waiting for the EtherRegen but enjoying the TLS switch I have. 

I have reached some SQ limits in my room.  I have done NO room treatment or Roon DSP, etc. It is my living room and funky room treatments are out..  I am researching how to attack this problem from the USB side of the NUC.  My current focus are a pair of KII Three speakers!

 

Oh and my wife wants to use Alexa to play music in the LR!  She is afraid of it.  AS ke kicks himself!

 

I think that is enough on my plate for now.

 

[bobfa]

19 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Bob,

 

I've already built my NUC endpoints and now building my HQP server.  What what you said was a custom built server can be better that a general purpose Synology NAS, which I agree.  Hence I'm asking how to built a NAS because I thought that's what you mean.  Or could it be that the NAS in your context also plays music rather than a single purpose file server?

I was confused I thought you wanted server that would sound better than a NAS.  I have no reason to build a NAS.  There is freeNAS software that should make that pretty simple.

[bobfa]

38 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

I have 3 options here: DSP Volume, Fixed Volume and Device volume.

 

I think that this is DAC dependent.  Research the DAC to see if it has USB Volume control.  

[bobfa]

24 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I have heard no difference. I would not expect there to be one, as the Roon DB is not directly in the playback path.

 

Most of the access is read only, when you navigate in the UI. Writes are rare, and only occur when you add albums/tracks/playlists, and to increment play counts, apply favorites, etc.

Does the DS-1 use Optane to boot from or is something else?

[bobfa]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Bob,

 

DS-1 is intended to be an endpoint, not a server. Since it’s basically a PJYH, there’s no M.2 slot for an Optane.

I forgot that.  I want to run an Optane stick in my endpoint to see if I can hear a difference.  In the server I get no influence.

[bobfa]

4 hours ago, Johnseye said:

Does anyone have experience with the NUC8I7BEH or its motherboard, the NUC8i7BEB?  It has an i7 proc and 28w TDP.  That's 13w more than the NUC7i7DNBE and while both will run at 12-19v it has a little more demand.  I read a few posts where that extra power did pose a challenge.

Those boards are the consumer line.  They are also the next generation processor and I think not tested here.  The Dawson Canyon boards are the commercial line.  I have not researched the differences.  

[bobfa]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

Therefore, this is not a "one size fits all." Use your ears and experiment.

Such true words.

 

 I have another thing for folks to test out.  I setup my NUC with Euphony Stylus today.  I really. REALLY need someone else to try this.  My son and I were really impressed today.  There were some comments about AL endpoints being "thin" and folks trying Windows again.  I think I found a path to not thin today..  

 

[bobfa]

I am almost done with setup.  I purchased two licenses of Euphony.  One for server one for endpoint and set them up in the middle of the night.  I will be testing later today using Roon.  On Euphony.  I will then boot the endpoint on Audio Linux and listen some more.  The server will need and AL rebuild on a new Optane stick or something.  This will take a couple of days to see how things go...

[bobfa]

8 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

I'm looking forward to your findings. I am so enjoying AL, ramroot, and Piero's peerless support, I've had zero motivation to explore!

 

What  made you look at Euphony?

I have discovered a new medical disorder and I am claiming naming rights:  BAADD (Bob's Audio Attention Distraction Disorder).  Now all I need is sponsorship to tell the world!  There will be white papers! 

 

All kidding aside!

 

I am fascinated by the differences we are hearing with AudioLinux.  I "HAD" to see how other things sounded.  I just flashed a USB stick with Eyphony and put it in my NUC endpoint to make it a server running their Stylus player software.  Both my son and I were so impressed with the QS at what we were hearing.  SOOOO.  I am now "stuck" finishing something I had not planned.  We have been using the Stylus music player software that can load the tracks into RAM.  I hooked my external HD to the endpoint and poof full server.

 

In addition, I am very interested in a little bit more plug and play.  So I am going through a couple of days of "messing" around and testing.  Today I will have Roon up and running on my split system using Euphony.  I have to purchase another M.2. Optane stick for the server so I can A/B between the two OS's by re-booting the server.  The endpoint is a reboot to a USB stick for the AL test.

 

I really need the luxury of another HDPLEX200 to do this testing.

 

 

Today headless AL is really close in setup simplicity.  It is out of the box  more flexible to "tinker" with.  Piero is great and you cannot discount that.  The support from the folks at Euphony has been good.  They have a ticketing system for problem requests.  I have sent them a LOT of feedback in three days.  The response has been stellar.  

 

I will put up a Euphony setup thread shortly.  I have to get some real work done today.

[bobfa]

19 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Mmmm I don't know @bobfa sounded very enthusiastic about Euphony at first listen. We'll give him a few days.

 

 

 

I am actually more and more enthusiastic about Euphony. I have a bunch of reporting and writing to do. There will be more on the shootout thread

 

1 minute ago, austinpop said:

 

To your BAADD I would add "Amazing Sound Seeker," making you a ....drum roll ...

 

BAADDASS!

 

 

 

We have to trademark this before the drug companies find out.  It might pay for our obsessions.

[bobfa]

37 minutes ago, bobfa said:

I will put up a Euphony setup thread shortly.  I have to get some real work done to

 

[bobfa]

Oh, and this may help others to play.

 

 

[bobfa]

4 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

I don't have AL and I only have a single PC (all in one box) setup.  Should I answer this in the new euphony thread instead ? 

I would put it here and if so inclined put a link to it in the other thread.  I have no magic answer!  This thread has SOO much good info, adding more, here is great.

 

I want to make sure I am not imagining things.  I am moving a bit fast and I do not want to trip...

[bobfa]

I have not looked but do any of these effect the overall latency of the system.  I feel that reducing latency helps.  Can you hear the difference?