HOLO Audio Spring DAC - R2R DSD512

[matthias]

2 hours ago, bodiebill said:

The Truth (Hornshoppe) passive preamp

 

AFAIK, it is a preamp with no gain, a pure buffer one but not a passive one.

 

Matt

[GoldenOne]

10 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

AFAIK, it is a preamp with no gain, a pure buffer one but not a passive one.

 

Matt

It has upto 6dB gain

[bodiebill]

15 minutes ago, matthias said:

AFAIK, it is a preamp with no gain, a pure buffer one but not a passive one.

 

Thanks Matt.

As said: the preamp arena confuses me :-)

[bodiebill]

9 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

It has upto 6dB gain

 

So you have experience with the Holo preamp module, the Serene as well as The Truth?

Could you summarize their SQ differences?

 

That would be helpful as the MiniDSP in my setup comes very close to The Truth.

[GoldenOne]

4 minutes ago, bodiebill said:

 

So you have experience with the Holo preamp module, the Serene as well as The Truth?

Could you summarize their SQ differences?

 

That would be helpful as the MiniDSP in my setup comes very close to The Truth.

I can't compare spring 3 + serene to spring 3 w/ integrated preamp as Id have to have the preamp and non-preamp versions of the spring 3 to do so. 

 

The serene is likely going to be better, but it's also a much more costly option. 

The serene makes more sense if you're getting a may. Otherwise I'd go for the spring 3 preamp. 

 

The hardware preamp does provide some advantages as with dsp vol control you start losing max THD+N as soon as you attenuate. Whereas with the hardware preamp you do not until you start getting limited by the noise floor. 

 

I do not like dsp vol control other than for small (less than 6dB ideally) adjustments. Anything beyond that I'd use a good preamp. 

 

[bodiebill]

Thanks @GoldenOne, that is helpful.

 

I currently attenuate the MiniDSP SHD Studio between 20 and 27dB for serious listening depending on the source material. I did read somewhere that this should not give too much degradation as the SHD operates with 32/96 resolution.

 

A simple and cheap workaround could be to use (analogue) inline attenuators that reduce the input to the power amp with f.i. 20 dB?

 

The Holo preamp module may be the best way to go, but I am just looking at my options before deciding.

[matthias]

44 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

It has upto 6dB gain

 

Yes, you are right. My point was that it is not a passive one.

 

Matt

[matthias]

How big is the difference in SQ between the RCA and XLR analog output of Spring 3?

 

Thank you

 

Matt

[musicjunkie917]

On 8/11/2021 at 6:34 AM, Johnseye said:

 

Are you still recommending 20bit in HQP for both the Spring 3 and May?

 

 

On 8/11/2021 at 11:38 AM, Miska said:

 

Yes, as you can see above based on measurements.

 

 

It it possible that the May would work just as well or better set at 21 bits?

[Miska]

10 hours ago, musicjunkie917 said:

It it possible that the May would work just as well or better set at 21 bits?

 

Maybe it would work as well, but it could work significantly worse too. But not better, because already at much lower settings you are limited by analog thermal noise.

 

So I wouldn't risk it for no gain.

 

[KenMoreira]

Update firmware for Linux base systems in holo page allows for my streamer to play back pcm at proper volume. 

[caesee]

I will get my new dac holo spring 3 L3 KTE version tomorrow , new dac will support dsd1024 and pcm 1.5m

But hqp only support dsd 256 7ecv2.

Will pcm 1.5m 7ecv2 will better than dsd 256?

[ted_b]

7 hours ago, caesee said:

But hqp only support dsd 256 7ecv2.

Not true.  HQP will support whatever the driver of the dac will support.  Please explain.

[GoldenOne]

7 hours ago, caesee said:

I will get my new dac holo spring 3 L3 KTE version tomorrow , new dac will support dsd1024 and pcm 1.5m

But hqp only support dsd 256 7ecv2.

Will pcm 1.5m 7ecv2 will better than dsd 256?

The main advantage with dsd for many regular dacs is that you can bypass and effectively 'replace' the modulator in the delta sigma dac itself with hqplayer's high performance once. 

 

With an r2r dac like the spring, there is no modulation needed as it can convert natively at 24 bit (cause its r2r). 

 

Whether you end up preferring dsd or pcm on it will come down to personal preference. 

In some areas dsd is objectively better but subjectively I prefer pcm on holo

[KenMoreira]

1 minute ago, GoldenOne said:

The main advantage with dsd for many regular dacs is that you can bypass and effectively 'replace' the modulator in the delta sigma dac itself with hqplayer's high performance once. 

 

With an r2r dac like the spring, there is no modulation needed as it can convert natively at 24 bit (cause its r2r). 

 

Whether you end up preferring dsd or pcm on it will come down to personal preference. 

In some areas dsd is objectively better but subjectively I prefer pcm on holo

 

 

Who buys an r2r resistor ladder dac than uses the chip based dsd as their preferred option. 

 

Just get the d90se if that's the way you prefer to listen n save significant money and have better dsd 

 

( my opinion) 

[GoldenOne]

3 minutes ago, KenMoreira said:

 

 

Who buys an r2r resistor ladder dac than uses the chip based dsd as their preferred option. 

 

Just get the d90se if that's the way you prefer to listen n save significant money and have better dsd 

 

( my opinion) 

The dsd converter in the spring (and may) isn't a chip it's discrete. 

 

It has separate discrete converters for both dsd and pcm. 

 

Also the d90se is ess so it wouldn't actually convert dsd natively anyway. Ess dacs convert to pcm internally as they utilise a lot of dsp for stuff like their THD compensation

[KenMoreira]

7 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

The dsd converter in the spring (and may) isn't a chip it's discrete. 

 

It has separate discrete converters for both dsd and pcm. 

 

Also the d90se is ess so it wouldn't actually convert dsd natively anyway. Ess dacs convert to pcm internally as they utilise a lot of dsp for stuff like their THD compensation

I had read the spring uses a proprietary chip for dsd. And their is only one ladder, it's for pcm. 

 

The may having balanced ladder dacs for dsd and pcm both 

[GoldenOne]

57 minutes ago, KenMoreira said:

I had read the spring uses a proprietary chip for dsd. And their is only one ladder, it's for pcm. 

 

The may having balanced ladder dacs for dsd and pcm both 

No the spring 2 and spring 3 both have discrete DSD converters too.

[Bertel]

1 hour ago, GoldenOne said:

Also the d90se is ess so it wouldn't actually convert dsd natively anyway. Ess dacs convert to pcm internally as they utilise a lot of dsp for stuff like their THD compensation

 

Don't think that this is correct, at least not for the ES9038PRO, the data sheet talks about Native DSD Format and how DSD (when not in DoP) is bypassing the FIR filter stage. @Miska when I recently asked that's why you recommended using DSD over PCM in HQPlayer with the D90ES, right?

[GoldenOne]

1 minute ago, Bertel said:

 

Don't think that this is correct, at least not for the ES9038PRO, the data sheet talks about Native DSD Format and how DSD (when not in DoP) is bypassing the FIR filter stage. @Miska when I recently asked that's why you recommended using DSD over PCM in HQPlayer with the D90ES, right?

It could bypass the FIR filter stage by just converting to a high PCM sample rate, rather than being converted to redbook and then 'starting from scratch' etc.

It might (and is likely) doing something different internally to being fed PCM but if it was converting the DSD natively then none of the THD compensation would be working and so we'd see notable performance differences between PCM and DSD with the 9038 which in my testing has not happened.

It's a bit tricky to know for sure though as ESS is understandably fairly tight-lipped about the inner workings of their DACs

[barrows]

In ESS DACs, DSD is not converted to a PCM-like sample and bit rate (such as 352.8 kHz and 32 bit) before conversion to analog, but, incoming DSD is not converted to analog natively either.  All ESS chips convert to analog via a multi bit converter, running at 6 or 7 bits and very high sample rate.  As noted, ESS is not entirely forthcoming with exactly what happens, but it does appear that incoming DSD bypasses the first ESS oversampling stage (the FIR filter) and then gets re-modulated (so it does go through the ESS SDM stage).  If the ESS DAC is running in asynchronous mode, then the sample rate gets asynchronously converted to a multiple of the master clock rate-if the DAC is running in synchronous mode, the incoming sample rate is synchronously converted to an integer rate of the master clock.  Best guess of most is that the DSD sample rate is maintained to the conversion stage, but that the format is re-modulated to 6 or 7 bits.  So, ESS DACs do not convert incoming DSD Natively, but inputting DSD rates does bypass some of the DAC's DSP, and therefore may be an advantage.  Personally, I have found that DSD 256 input has sounded best with my ESS 9038 Pro based DAC (which is also synchronously clocked, avoiding ASRC in the DAC chip).  Still, I have preferred the SQ of DSD DACs which convert DSD natively with no DSP at all, like the DSC-2 and my Bricasti M3.

[Miska]

4 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

It might (and is likely) doing something different internally to being fed PCM but if it was converting the DSD natively then none of the THD compensation would be working and so we'd see notable performance differences between PCM and DSD with the 9038 which in my testing has not happened.

 

DSD bypasses all the rate conversion stages of ESS. So it gets a shortcut to the final stages. So it's the way to get highest rate input to the chip bypassing as much as possible of the on-chip DSP.

 

You cannot bypass all the DSP though, since there's no direct mode like there is with some other chips.

 

[wanta911]

Happy New Year!

 

I have an issue with the USB input on my Spring 3 KTE that was delivered in late September. Usually I feed it either USB from my 2015 MacBook Air using Audirvana for headphone listening or AES from my streamer/MiniDSP room correction setup for speaker listening and have had zero issues.

 

Anyway, yesterday I got a new MacBook Air with the M1 processor and USB C outputs. I have both USB C to USB A adapters and a USB C hub so I thought it shouldn’t be a problem - I thought wrong! Every time I connect to the Spring my MacBook crashes, I have tried different adapters, a USB hub, different USB cables, different powering on routines but the same result every time.

 

So I started to curse Apple (a lot) before I thought about trying a different DAC with the new Mac. It’s a good thing I’m a DAC hoarder and too lazy to flip my stash.

 

Using just a $15 USB C to USB A adapter it all worked flawlessly with every other DAC I tried:

 

Topping D10S

Topping D70

RME ADI 2

Chord Qutest

 

So the issue is unique to the Spring.

 

I've contacted my dealer and asked him to contact Holo Audio. I know there are USB firmware updates but surely they are for Windows and not Mac OS?

 

Just thought I'd post the issue here in case anyone has any experience with this?

[musicjunkie917]

Just because it only happens with the Holo Audio DAC does not the Holo Audio DAC is doing something wrong. It could still be an Apple bug….

[Bimmer100]

3 hours ago, wanta911 said:

Happy New Year!

 

I have an issue with the USB input on my Spring 3 KTE that was delivered in late September. Usually I feed it either USB from my 2015 MacBook Air using Audirvana for headphone listening or AES from my streamer/MiniDSP room correction setup for speaker listening and have had zero issues.

 

Anyway, yesterday I got a new MacBook Air with the M1 processor and USB C outputs. I have both USB C to USB A adapters and a USB C hub so I thought it shouldn’t be a problem - I thought wrong! Every time I connect to the Spring my MacBook crashes, I have tried different adapters, a USB hub, different USB cables, different powering on routines but the same result every time.

 

So I started to curse Apple (a lot) before I thought about trying a different DAC with the new Mac. It’s a good thing I’m a DAC hoarder and too lazy to flip my stash.

 

Using just a $15 USB C to USB A adapter it all worked flawlessly with every other DAC I tried:

 

Topping D10S

Topping D70

RME ADI 2

Chord Qutest

 

So the issue is unique to the Spring.

 

I've contacted my dealer and asked him to contact Holo Audio. I know there are USB firmware updates but surely they are for Windows and not Mac OS?

 

Just thought I'd post the issue here in case anyone has any experience with this?

There are firmware updates that address the issues with macOS. However they require a windows pc to load the firmware. Your issue will be addressed if you can get access to a windows pc, or use emulator on your Mac to run windows OS. Like boot camp or parallels.
 

the newest firmware is 31.42 and will be on our site soon. Albeit 31.40 also addresses the issue you mentioned.