HOLO Audio Spring DAC - R2R DSD512

[tony31]

On 4/18/2021 at 11:27 AM, Johnseye said:

 

I can't speak for the Spring 2 or 3 KTE.  I had the Spring 1 KTE v2 with the updated USB.  I just received the May yesterday and good God, out of the box it's remarkable.  I also have a Chord Hugo TT2, and I've had a DAVE in house to compare.  The May is just outstanding.  The soundstage width, height and depth is huge by comparison.  I say huge and by that I mean the sound envelops you.  There is clarity, definition and most importantly realism to the instruments that I've not heard with these other dacs.  I'm excited to hear how it sounds after burn in.

Hi,

I see in your signature that you have a spring l3. So do you have a May or spring l3 ?

how do you compare the hugo tt2 to this ?

thank you

[Bimmer100]

Combination of things cause uncontrolled delays. Massive flow of incoming emails has kept us working hard to respond to everyone’s questions and we are a bit behind on the release of this dac. However I finally have the final production spring3 which will go in for photos soon when temp is down to sane levels.. However some maybe have heard the news of the northwest… we have been hit with a massive heatwave here. Breaking records!! It was over 106 or 41C. And our work area does not have Aircon yet. Won’t be until the 9th til we get Aircon installed!

 

So sadly I have been behind as It’s not safe to work in heat like this. Thank you to those who understand what hell it can be to be stuck in this heat. But I have managed some hours past midnight to get a little here and there done. Sorry not many really care about it, but it’s been a huge hiccup for the most recent end of month release date estimate , and many customers just want to order a spring3. I’m going to hope for better weather to get the photos taken this weekend and get the product page up a couple days after. However as excited as many are to get their orders in… the product page will progressively improve over time. But will get the basic info and photos up right away to allow everyone to place their orders!

I thank everyone for being understanding in the matter! We have had some struggles to get this great product out to everyone. And we appreciate those who are patient with delays and longer wait times in getting back with requests. But one thing that would help us a TON is to wait to email us about the spring3 release date. As I respond to 100+ emails a day about spring3 and would be amazed how much more time I could spend on getting this product page up and going :) I’m just as excited to get this page live and ready to accept orders. We also have ramped up our production team to help reduce significantly for production wait times. So I’m excited to hear what everyone thinks of this great dac :) 

 

Best

 

-Tim Connor

KitsuneHiFi

[Johnseye]

21 hours ago, tony31 said:

Hi,

I see in your signature that you have a spring l3. So do you have a May or spring l3 ?

how do you compare the hugo tt2 to this ?

thank you

 

I had a Spring L3 (KTE) and now have a May KTE.  Thanks for reminding me to update my profile.

 

I've had the DAVE in my house for a while and I own a Hugo TT2.  If an expansive and deep soundstage is your thing then the May is by far the better DAC.  I use the Hugo in my office and is directly connected to my Omega CAMs.  It's a very transparent DAC.  Many times I've inserted into my main listening room and compared it against other DACs, including the Spring when I had it.  Compared to the Spring it is just different.  They both have unique qualities.  The May outshines them all.  I will say it took well over a month for the May to break in.  It seems to go through a period where the soundstage collapses from its full glory, then it returns.

[tony31]

Thank you

[tony31]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

 

I had a Spring L3 (KTE) and now have a May KTE.  Thanks for reminding me to update my profile.

 

I've had the DAVE in my house for a while and I own a Hugo TT2.  If an expansive and deep soundstage is your thing then the May is by far the better DAC.  I use the Hugo in my office and is directly connected to my Omega CAMs.  It's a very transparent DAC.  Many times I've inserted into my main listening room and compared it against other DACs, including the Spring when I had it.  Compared to the Spring it is just different.  They both have unique qualities.  The May outshines them all.  I will say it took well over a month for the May to break in.  It seems to go through a period where the soundstage collapses from its full glory, then it returns.

Thank you

[Miska]

OK, so I got my Spring 3 L2 DAC today and have performed some initial testing.

 

Performance is very nice overall! I also like the new standby mode with display off.

 

As before, output level is 6 dB lower with DSD sources just like before. This is sort of natural and leaves headroom for over-modulated sections that can momentarily reach +3 dB level.

 

Some measurements here...

 

First linearity check as before, 1 kHz -120 dBFS sine here, TPDF dithered to 24-bit resolution:

Same tone, but now LNS15 noise-shaped to 20-bit:

As expected, linearity error causing distortion gets corrected.

 

Then first PCM output to 705.6k, LNS15 noise shaped to 20-bit.

 

1 kHz THD test:

 

19+20 kHz IMD test:

 

Multitone-test (analyzer left to same settings, I should have used a custom setting for these):

 

J-test24:

 

Then the same tests with DSD256 by ASDM7EC modulator.

 

1 kHz THD test:

19+20 kHz IMD test:

 

Multitone-test:

 

J-test24:

[GoldenOne]

2 minutes ago, Miska said:

OK, so I got my Spring 3 L2 DAC today and have performed some initial testing.

 

Performance is very nice overall! I also like the new standby mode with display off.

 

As before, output level is 6 dB lower with DSD sources just like before. This is sort of natural and leaves headroom for over-modulated sections that can momentarily reach +3 dB level.

 

Some measurements here...

 

First linearity check as before, 1 kHz -120 dBFS sine here, TPDF dithered to 24-bit resolution:

Same tone, but now LNS15 noise-shaped to 20-bit:

As expected, linearity error causing distortion gets corrected.

 

Then first PCM output to 705.6k, LNS15 noise shaped to 20-bit.

 

1 kHz THD test:

 

19+20 kHz IMD test:

 

Multitone-test (analyzer left to same settings, I should have used a custom setting for these):

 

J-test24:

 

Then the same tests with DSD256 by ASDM7EC modulator.

 

1 kHz THD test:

19+20 kHz IMD test:

 

Multitone-test:

 

J-test24:

Nice! 

For the j-test is that a full scale j-test? 

[Miska]

6 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

For the j-test is that a full scale j-test? 

 

It is the standard (Miller-Dunn) test pattern with peak level of -6.02 dBFS with 24-bit LSB toggled.

 

[Miska]

And here some additional typical measurements I do.

 

In these, there's a 0 - 22.05 kHz sine sweep running several times with analyzer in peak-hold mode.

 

At PCM 705.6k output:

 

At DSD256 output:

[Ozan Bolat]

8 minutes ago, Miska said:

And here some additional typical measurements I do.

 

In these, there's a 0 - 22.05 kHz sine sweep running several times with analyzer in peak-hold mode.

 

At PCM 705.6k output:

 

At DSD256 output:

I can see DSD is cleaner and I guess it's your point but

why not compare to max PCM ?

how that better cleanness translates and does it balance the change of nature and other transformations when making a PCM signal DSD ?

are those results better than Spring 2's

Is there such thing as burn in that translates in differences in those tests ?

 

Mine is still between depots...

[Miska]

26 minutes ago, Ozan Bolat said:

I can see DSD is cleaner and I guess it's your point but

why not compare to max PCM ?

 

This is maximum PCM rate it can do. Based on tests with Spring 2, the fundamental behavior is not any different at 1.5M rates.

 

Quote

how that better cleanness translates and does it balance the change of nature and other transformations when making a PCM signal DSD ?

 

It just performs better, that's the reason these transformations are done. And the reason why modern DACs are SDM type.

 

Same way at the production side, practically all recent PCM material you are listening have been SDM at the ADC side and then converted to PCM inside the AD converter chip. So equivalent transformation from SDM to PCM.

 

Quote

are those results better than Spring 2's

 

In some ways they are. But Spring 2 (and 1) are still very good performers.

 

Quote

Is there such thing as burn in that translates in differences in those tests ?

 

No...

 

[Zauurx]

I couldn't find any measurement on my Musician Pegasus (Denafrips like) but I think the scheme produces the same result: configured in 20 bits and a maximum SQ in SDM 256 gauss-xla ASDM7EC (or 5EC... my core i5 does the maximum but...). NOS setting.

[GoldenOne]

1 minute ago, Zauurx said:

I couldn't find any measurement on my Musician Pegasus (Denafrips like) but I think the scheme produces the same result: configured in 20 bits and a maximum SQ in SDM 256 gauss-xla ASDM7EC (or 5EC... my core i5 does the maximum but...). NOS setting.

Denafrips/pegasus don't actually have a proper dsd converter as far as I'm aware. It converts to pcm and converts on the main ladder

[Zauurx]

6 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

Denafrips/pegasus don't actually have a proper dsd converter as far as I'm aware. It converts to pcm and converts on the main ladder

I suspect that the schema is not totally identical... not really the same price. 

Is it the "Proprietory R2R + DSD architecture" ?
But there is DSD decoding (6bits), otherwise I'd better stick to PCM 1.412 direct ?
The PCM seems more dense but the DSD more dynamic (EC filter ?).

[GoldenOne]

3 minutes ago, Zauurx said:

I suspect that the schema is not totally identical... not really the same price. 

Is it the "Proprietory R2R + DSD architecture" ?
But there is DSD decoding (6bits), otherwise I'd better stick to PCM 1.412 direct ?
The PCM seems more dense but the DSD more dynamic (EC filter ?).

Denafrips was very evasive about it when I asked them. Unfortunately it seems they don't like talking about any of the more inner details of how their dacs work. 

 

But there's no separate dsd converter visible on the board. It seems it just converts to very high sample rate 6-bit pcm and converts this on the main ladder. 

But I'll check when I next get a denafrips dac in. 

 

Rockna to their credit was very open about how their dac does it. It converts to 768khz 24bit pcm and plays on the main ladder

[Zauurx]

8 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

Denafrips was very evasive about it when I asked them. Unfortunately it seems they don't like talking about any of the more inner details of how their dacs work. 

 

But there's no separate dsd converter visible on the board. It seems it just converts to very high sample rate 6-bit pcm and converts this on the main ladder. 

But I'll check when I next get a denafrips dac in. 

 

Rockna to their credit was very open about how their dac does it. It converts to 768khz 24bit pcm and plays on the main ladder

I don't want to pollute the "Holo" topic... but I'm still curious and interested about informations.

[Johnseye]

14 hours ago, Miska said:

OK, so I got my Spring 3 L2 DAC today and have performed some initial testing.

 

Performance is very nice overall! I also like the new standby mode with display off.

 

As before, output level is 6 dB lower with DSD sources just like before. This is sort of natural and leaves headroom for over-modulated sections that can momentarily reach +3 dB level.

 

 

Jussi,

 

Did you ever have a May to test with and if so how does it compare?

 

Are you still recommending 20bit in HQP for both the Spring 3 and May?

 

Thanks

[orosie]

4 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

Denafrips was very evasive about it when I asked them. Unfortunately it seems they don't like talking about any of the more inner details of how their dacs work. 

 

But there's no separate dsd converter visible on the board. It seems it just converts to very high sample rate 6-bit pcm and converts this on the main ladder. 

But I'll check when I next get a denafrips dac in. 

 

Rockna to their credit was very open about how their dac does it. It converts to 768khz 24bit pcm and plays on the main ladder

 

I found the same when reaching out a year ago to Vinshine (Alvin) for exactly how DSD was converted with my T+, and Alvin replied with this brief and muddy explanation.....

 

"DENAFRIPS DAC decode DSD via the resistor ladders network. There is no DSD/PCM conversion. Yep, there is a part of the resistor ladders process/decode the DSD :)"

 

Funny, but I was under the impression that 1 bit DSD cannot be decoded on any type of R2R DAC, without a chip.  Am I nuts?  They have to be converting to PCM, right?

[Miska]

5 hours ago, Johnseye said:

Did you ever have a May to test with and if so how does it compare?

 

No, it is out of my current R&D budget.

 

5 hours ago, Johnseye said:

Are you still recommending 20bit in HQP for both the Spring 3 and May?

 

Yes, as you can see above based on measurements.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, orosie said:

Funny, but I was under the impression that 1 bit DSD cannot be decoded on any type of R2R DAC, without a chip.  Am I nuts?  They have to be converting to PCM, right?

 

It doesn't mean that DSD would be converted by R2R network, but instead a separate SDM style network. If you want to see schematics of example implementation, check out my DSC1 design. It uses 32-resistor network to convert DSD to analog (producing 33 unique analog levels).

 

[GoldenOne]

1 minute ago, Miska said:

 

It doesn't mean that DSD would be converted by R2R network, but instead a separate SDM style network. If you want to see schematics of example implementation, check out my DSC1 design. It uses 32-resistor network to convert DSD to analog (producing 33 unique analog levels).

 

Are you aware if this is what denafrips is indeed doing? 

 

Im hoping to get another one in to test but until then can't really go off anything other than the pcb which doesn't seem to show anything that would do this. Whereas on the holo etc its clearly visible

[Miska]

1 minute ago, GoldenOne said:

Are you aware if this is what denafrips is indeed doing? 

 

It at least seems to be somehow different, based on my measurements. I don't have exact information how it is implemented. There are multiple ways to implement this kind of functionality.

 

Output from Holo looks similar to my design.

 

[Blake]

There is a small bit of DSD info here, with pics you can zoom on:

 

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips7/2/

 

[Miska]

27 minutes ago, Blake said:

There is a small bit of DSD info here, with pics you can zoom on:

 

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips7/2/

 

They make it sound a lot like DSC1... And in the middle, between two longer double resistor networks (R2R) you can see shorter set of networks, which could be the DSD part. But I just don't know for sure how it's implemented.

 

But anyway, this is quite OT for this thread...

[luisma]

5 hours ago, Miska said:

Yes, as you can see above based on measurements.

LNS15 preferred over TPDF? or the difference in the graph is made by 20 vs 24 bits?