HOLO Audio Spring DAC - R2R DSD512

[Miska]

9 hours ago, luisma said:

LNS15 preferred over TPDF? or the difference in the graph is made by 20 vs 24 bits?

 

Using a noise-shaped dither instead of regular flat dither ensures that your dynamic range is not limited by the number of bits.

 

Difference is due to combination of noise-shaper designed for this particular purpose and number of bits.

 

[Ozan Bolat]

@Miska got my S3L2

 

and latest HQP 4.13

 

have firmware allowing 1536 but

 

can't see the option to play n48 DSD (only 5.6 11.28 etc )though adaptative output rate is checked

 

and the worse thing is that I can't play 64 DSD into 256 ASDM7EC without interrupts every few seconds though multicore DSP is greyed and that the CPU of the Mini M1 I purchased based on reports it works is 51% inactive. I don't use convolution but I have TXT room correction in Pipeline setup

 

Any suggestion ?

[Ozan Bolat]

Fresh from the box I'm happy @Miskasaid it wouldn't be much cheaper if there was no R2R ladder and that Spring beats DSD Cyan for there's no use to use the R2R for PCM : DSD 256 ASM7EC is much better

 

Questions :

 

Is there actually a break in and longer for the R2R PCM part so it competes and maybe beats the SDM part after a while?

I used poly sinc gauss long ; is there another filter that would make R2R PCM shine ?

 

if I am to use SDM only I wish @Miska has a trick to make 64 to 256 work with a Mini M1 (see previous post !)

[Miska]

2 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

can't see the option to play n48 DSD (only 5.6 11.28 etc )though adaptative output rate is checked

 

There's setting "48k DSD" in the output device box. If you check it, and in addition select 48k x256 as output rate limit, it should work.

 

2 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

I can't play 64 DSD into 256 ASDM7EC without interrupts every few seconds though multicore DSP is greyed and that the CPU of the Mini M1 I purchased based on reports it works is 51% inactive. I don't use convolution but I have TXT room correction in Pipeline setup

 

You could try disabling the matrix pipeline processing and see if DSD64 -> DSD256 works then.

 

40 minutes ago, Ozan Bolat said:

Is there actually a break in and longer for the R2R PCM part so it competes and maybe beats the SDM part after a while?

 

No, it won't make any notable technical difference...

 

[Ozan Bolat]

6 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

There's setting "48k DSD" in the output device box. If you check it, and in addition select 48k x256 as output rate limit, it should work.

 

 

You could try disabling the matrix pipeline processing and see if DSD64 -> DSD256 works then.

 

 

No, it won't make any notable technical difference...

 

thank you. I feel stupid I missed checking 48K DSD : that solves the issue

 

I don't wan't to disable matrix processing ; I need room correction (11 eQ points per channel up to 500 Hz) ; i'm pretty sure taht before ordering the M1 Mini I read reports that 256 7EC works with convolution : how come I can't?

 

about SDM vs R2R PCM : it seems I confirm your opinion but I feel a bit sorry then that there is nothing on the market with the Holo DSD Cyan concept but better or is there and I goofed when ordering a Spring?

 

[Ozan Bolat]

@Miska I'm very disappointed by the Mini M1 performance with HQP and do not confirm it can do 256 7EC + matrix processing, not only from 64 DSD but also I could not use ext3 and Sinc M Mx L with 24/96 source and 256 7EC + matrix processing

 

Then checked the popular Sinc L NS15 @ 1536 PCM : can see why it might be popular but for bad reasons as far as I'm concerned : slow & emphatic

I can do Sinc S and poly sinc gauss long with 256 7EC ; both are good I think ; which one do you recommend ?

 

for DSD 64 source seems I can do 1024 with ASDM7 512 +fs ; what do you think vs max I can do with EC which is 256 with 5EC or 128 with 7EC ?

 is ASDM7 512 +fs the best with 1024 ?

[Ozan Bolat]

forgot to say I use a small unit computer with your image as NAA

[Ozan Bolat]

@GoldenOne I test many things very fast and I'm looking forward watching your review you take time to produce but:

 

do you disagree with Miska's and my first impressions about SDM being superior ? If you do, (seems you do with the May) after how much burn in and which filters ?

does the superiority you attribute to the May remain true when comparing only SDM fed 256 7EC from HQP ?

I had opportunity to purchase old USB regen and Supra usb cable 

Can't see the point to keep either:

Spring comes with a Holo branded USB cable and I'm not sure I could blind find which is which : do you confirm insensitivity to usb cable ?

in some ways the Regen could be said to make some forte more palatable but like Sinc L/NS15 I'd say it's (subtly) slow and emphatic*  and since even without Titanis module usb seems insensitive to cable I'm afraid Regen just brings its colouring and recess things a bit. Calling @Superdad once more to say what in his offer competes with Titanis. Have you found a way to appreciate Titanis effect ?

 

* attended several rehearsals of piano violin cello trio recently, empty church was far too reverberant and can't say the sound was good + the violinist joked she never played a bad violin while the pianist complained about the lack of nuances of the rented instrument but sound was vivid fast loud if not always pleasant so I'm not after palatable today

 

Might have friends coming with their DACs over the weekend maybe fun comparing

[Ozan Bolat]

Maybe @Miska and @GoldenOne's answers to my previous posts will lead to reconsider but I think I'm done :

 

R2R PCM is useless

Anything that goes against immediacy has to be avoided, would it be after market cable or regen or filters such as SincL

Actually I now prefer Sinc S to gauss long for it's more incisive 

based on the immediacy criteria I prefer DSD 1024 with ASDM7 512 +FS over 128 7EC. I'm very disappointed my Mini does not do 64 to 256 with TXT parametric filters

Wouldn't say though that the DAC is too soft but that it reveals whatever else is

I'm a beginner in DACs, just had a few in loan those last weeks since I started the thread, but have the feeling that the main assets of this DAC are :

density by details retrieval

n48 as well as n 44.1 allowing to use Sinc S 7EC at 256 and thus have simple automated operations for PCM sources.

 

Makes it more painful the M1 forces me to fiddle between options when I listen to DSD source (thought of going 1024 for everything but it doesn't work with the M1 and PCM even with 44.1 source : stutters a lot while DSD 64 to 256 with 7EC it's just interrupts

 

Overall, sounds the best I heard in my system but compared to correcting room or choosing filters that suit taste, it's not that big big difference when you think bang for the buck, it's a touch of class and refinement but either i haven't spent enough to get the wow effect May owners ravel about or either I have spent just right to get the assets

[Miska]

3 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

I don't wan't to disable matrix processing ; I need room correction (11 eQ points per channel up to 500 Hz) ; i'm pretty sure taht before ordering the M1 Mini I read reports that 256 7EC works with convolution : how come I can't?

 

Such always depends on the particular case, in case of IIR EQ it depends on how many EQ points there are. For convolution it depends on size of the convolution filter. And then of course on source sampling rate of the material. Doing these for 44.1k PCM is much lighter than performing such for DSD64, not to even mention DSD256.

 

14 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

there is nothing on the market with the Holo DSD Cyan concept

 

That's the case. Nobody has made a DAC solely for HQPlayer, I think the market is too small. Apart from Cyan, the only other was Schiit's Loki DAC. There are various DACs that are DSD/SDM-only on the conversion stage, but then they have their own DSP to deal with PCM inputs which makes them non-cost effective compared to buying a Holo DAC with both PCM and DSD and just using the DSD side.

 

So either way, when using these DACs with HQPlayer, there's always some piece of hardware inside that is left unused.

 

13 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

I can do Sinc S and poly sinc gauss long with 256 7EC ; both are good I think ; which one do you recommend ?

 

gauss-long and ext2 are good choices. And for some material such as older prog rock recordings I like poly-sinc-short-mp-2s.

 

You could also try xtr-short-mp-2s.

 

13 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

I'm very disappointed by the Mini M1 performance

 

It is good to remember that it is just an inexpensive small CPU designed for mobile use (low power consumption). For what it is designed for, it is fairly powerful! When you compare it to it's competition like Intel's U-series (used on NUCs and ultra-mobile laptops).

 

14 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

for DSD 64 source seems I can do 1024 with ASDM7 512 +fs ; what do you think vs max I can do with EC which is 256 with 5EC or 128 with 7EC ?

 is ASDM7 512 +fs the best with 1024 ?

 

I would stick with ASDM5EC at DSD256 in such case. But of course you can choose which way you prefer!

 

[Ozan Bolat]

33 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Such always depends on the particular case, in case of IIR EQ it depends on how many EQ points there are. For convolution it depends on size of the convolution filter. And then of course on source sampling rate of the material. Doing these for 44.1k PCM is much lighter than performing such for DSD64, not to even mention DSD256.

 

 

That's the case. Nobody has made a DAC solely for HQPlayer, I think the market is too small. Apart from Cyan, the only other was Schiit's Loki DAC. There are various DACs that are DSD/SDM-only on the conversion stage, but then they have their own DSP to deal with PCM inputs which makes them non-cost effective compared to buying a Holo DAC with both PCM and DSD and just using the DSD side.

 

So either way, when using these DACs with HQPlayer, there's always some piece of hardware inside that is left unused.

 

 

gauss-long and ext2 are good choices. And for some material such as older prog rock recordings I like poly-sinc-short-mp-2s.

 

You could also try xtr-short-mp-2s.

 

 

It is good to remember that it is just an inexpensive small CPU designed for mobile use (low power consumption). For what it is designed for, it is fairly powerful! When you compare it to it's competition like Intel's U-series (used on NUCs and ultra-mobile laptops).

 

 

I would stick with ASDM5EC at DSD256 in such case. But of course you can choose which way you prefer!

 

Thank you very much ! seems we were writing at the same time. I will try 5EC 256 with 64 source. So Sinc S is not in your recommendations ? will reconsider gauus long and try ext2 but really like Sinc S with the Spring. Seems you're suggesting to play with filters depending on content

[pis99]

10 minutes ago, Ozan Bolat said:

Thank you very much ! seems we were writing at the same time. I will try 5EC 256 with 64 source. So Sinc S is not in your recommendations ? will reconsider gauus long and try ext2 but really like Sinc S with the Spring. Seems you're suggesting to play with filters depending on content

I find M1 very useful if you can manage to have source all at 44.1. It will be very disappointed with source files varies.

[Ozan Bolat]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

 

 

 

gauss-long and ext2 are good choices. And for some material such as older prog rock recordings I like poly-sinc-short-mp-2s.

You could also try xtr-short-mp-2s.

 

I would stick with ASDM5EC at DSD256 in such case. But of course you can choose which way you prefer!

 

ASDM5EC at DSD256 IS INDEED the best option with 64 to 256 since M1 can't do 7EC

I've listened exclusively to classical PCM so far and to my ears/system Sinc S/7EC/256 is the closest to the real thing

[pis99]

12 minutes ago, Ozan Bolat said:

ASDM5EC at DSD256 IS INDEED the best option with 64 to 256 since M1 can't do 7EC

I've listened exclusively to classical PCM so far and to my ears/system Sinc S/7EC/256 is the closest to the real thing

DSD material has nothing to do with EC modules. I was told by Miska not too long ago!

[ted_b]

54 minutes ago, pis99 said:

DSD material has nothing to do with EC modules. I was told by Miska not too long ago!

?? EC modulators are about NOTHING BUT DSD.  If you are upsampling either PCM to some version of DSD, or upmodulating lower bit rate DSD to hgher bit rate DSD (DSD256 max at this point in time with EC) then EC modulators are the best modulator you can use, assuming cpu strength.  What is NOT involved is when you upmodulate DSD to another DSD...then PCM filters are not involved.

[Miska]

8 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

Thank you very much ! seems we were writing at the same time. I will try 5EC 256 with 64 source. So Sinc S is not in your recommendations ? will reconsider gauus long and try ext2 but really like Sinc S with the Spring. Seems you're suggesting to play with filters depending on content

 

Filter choice is largely up to personal sensitivity to different aspects and type of source content. Things are very different for orchestra hall recording made with few far field mics compared to mixed studio multi-track recording made with many close / instrument mics.

 

Technically sinc-S is fine too, I just don't have a particular personal preference towards those.

[Ozan Bolat]

2 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Filter choice is largely up to personal sensitivity to different aspects and type of source content. Things are very different for orchestra hall recording made with few far field mics compared to mixed studio multi-track recording made with many close / instrument mics.

 

Technically sinc-S is fine too, I just don't have a particular personal preference towards those.

actually I have just listened to pop content chosing gauss long ; anyway it's easy using client on my control machine to switch : nice, thank you !

[sitQ]

Hi everyone! I got a spring 2 KTE version for a try ( it can be mine for 2000€ ) It’s so amazing compared to my recent dac… It would be a huge step up for me.

 

What do you think, is it a good deal, or go for a Spring 3 KTE? Is it worth the extra 1.100€ for a new 3 KTE?

[87mpi]

On 8/30/2021 at 10:30 PM, sitQ said:

Hi everyone! I got a spring 2 KTE version for a try ( it can be mine for 2000€ ) It’s so amazing compared to my recent dac… It would be a huge step up for me.

 

What do you think, is it a good deal, or go for a Spring 3 KTE? Is it worth the extra 1.100€ for a new 3 KTE?

Yes, absolutely!

I have both Spring 2 KTE and Spring 3 KTE at home.

Spring 3 is another world!

Go with Spring 3 without thinking about it!

Spring 3 is 90% of the May! 

[Ozan Bolat]

6 hours ago, 87mpi said:

Yes, absolutely!

I have both Spring 2 KTE and Spring 3 KTE at home.

Spring 3 is another world!

Go with Spring 3 without thinking about it!

Spring 3 is 90% of the May! 

So you also have a May or been able to compare S3 vs May? How do you feed your S3 and/or May ? I'm very happy with my S3L2 fed DSD 256 via HQP with 7EC modulator ; no use of the R2R PCM part

[87mpi]

13 hours ago, Ozan Bolat said:

So you also have a May or been able to compare S3 vs May? How do you feed your S3 and/or May ? I'm very happy with my S3L2 fed DSD 256 via HQP with 7EC modulator ; no use of the R2R PCM part

I do not have the may and I have not had the opportunity to try or compare it unfortunately. The technology is the same, the usb module is the same (only on the kte) only the may has a slightly tighter tolerance for the resistors and they are actually 2 mono dac springs, each with its own power supply.

Clearly the may will be better, as users here on the forum who have compared it say, but in my opinion it will be slightly better. I feed my S3 KTE with HQP embedded on an i9 9900k PC with Gentooplayer, but only with local files because the sound quality is much better.

I find the PCM part better, more alive and real, of the DSD part. I feed the dac with PCM 1536 Sync-M and LSN15. I used to use DSD 256 7EC Native.

[GoldenOne]

Posted my full review of the spring 3 with some comparisons to May and Spring 2 :) :

 

[sitQ]

36 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

Posted my full review of the spring 3 with some comparisons to May and Spring 2 :) :

 

Best timing for me 🙂🙂

[DuckToller]

2 hours ago, GoldenOne said:

Posted my full review of the spring 3 with some comparisons to May and Spring 2 :) :

 

Thank you very much for this review @GoldenOne! Kudos!

So you are quite enthusiastic about the Spring with Pre.
Which - for me - seems to be a good point to explorate this product in the future, especially as with NOS, DSD, External Oversampling plus Pre-Amp  this DAC may fit my key demands I would lay down for a endgame/reference DAC.
Am I mistaken, when I understood that you reviewed the L3 KTE version with Pre-Amp module ?
You mentioned the Titanis module, thus without reference if it is 2.0 ?
However, at another point you were noting 2.5 grand as pricepoint, which made me wonder ...
Could you please clarify?

Thanks in advance
DT

edit - wording ... spelling ...

[GoldenOne]

12 minutes ago, DuckToller said:

Thank you very much for this review @GoldenOne! Kudos!

So you are quite enthusuatic about the Spring with Pre.
Which - for me - seems to be a good point to explorate this product further, especially because with NOS, DSD, External Oversampling plus Pre-Amp  this DAC may fit my key demands I would lay down for a future (endgame/reference) DAC.
Am I mistaken, when I understood that you reviewed the L3 KTE version with Pre-Amp module ?
You mentioned the Titanis module, thus without reference if it is 2.0 ?
However, at another point you were noting 2.5 grand as pricepoint, which made me wonder ...
Could you please clarify?

Thanks in advance
DT

I am!
For the money it's a crazy good option IMO.

L1/L2 spring 3 have the 'normal' usb card. Still has galvanic isolation, but no titanis chip and not as advanced. How much of a difference that makes I cannot say as I've not compared the two.

I said $2500 cause L2 is $2500. (L1 being cheaper and KTE being a bit more).
Having tried the KTE and L2 may though, there is a very subtle difference but not enough to change anything I said in my may video for example.

The spring 3 l1/2/3 have some slight component upgrades but they're the same design, same dac. It's not going to make it a drastically better/worse product or anything.