Poll: Where are you along the cable divide?

[sandyk]

You're right Alex, I am retired. I'm not required to update my knowledge - anymore. When I was working, like any working engineer, I HAD to keep up with my field, lest I become unemployable. The training doesn't have to be formal though. The competition in the field makes staying current (or a little ahead of the field) de riguer. However, I am still an audio reviewer and that means that I also have stay abreast of this field. I do that by reading and participating on forms like this one.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, and that's bad, how? Electronics is too wide a field for engineers NOT to specialize.

 

 

 

It's a dead-cinch certainty! However, with their training, any competent EE could quickly find the information right here on the internet to design one that would work perfectly because they DO know the fundamentals of amplification. From what you've said, Alex, it seems like you don't really know much about engineers and engineering.

 

 

 

I don't think Mansr has told us what his field of expertise is. I will say that he seems to know a lot more about audio electronics and electronic engineering, in general, than does present company!

 

An audio reviewer that refuses to accept that many people reading his work can hear differences between various types of interconnects etc. ???

Were you also involved in those infamous "All Amplifiers sound the same " Blind tests that so many conveniently ignore when raving on about how ABX tests are the Gold Standard ?

 

Many untrained members of audio forums such as DIYAudio have designed properly working amplifiers using Simulators, WITHOUT any formal engineering training.

Many Engineers that have specialised for many years in a particular area seem to think that they are still well qualified to speak on all areas of electronics as if they are an authority, despite not being regularly updated in those other areas.There are also several E.E.s that post here, that I have very little disagreement with, except in one specific area where Blind tests actually did work as claimed to verify my reports.

I personally know a couple of qualified EEs, and they aren't up themselves like a few regular E.E. posters in this forum appear to be ! They readily admit that the more they know, the more they need to know. Neither do they worship ABX testing. They also use their EARS for final confirmation !

 

Most EEs wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the sound created by a $40,000 Pass Labs amplifier and a 1970 Pioneer receiver; and even more importantly, if you pointed out the difference, they most likely wouldn't care!

At least you got that right !

[mansr]

I don't think Mansr has told us what his field of expertise is.

 

For the record, I studied electronic engineering, and although I chose to specialise in computer systems, a decent amount of analogue electronics was also covered. While I wouldn't be able to design a state of the art amp off the top of my head, I'm also not entirely clueless about how they work. My day job involves mostly Linux kernel work and some digital signal processing. I have also done a fair bit of work on audio and video codecs.

[kumakuma]

Many untrained members of audio forums such as DIYAudio have designed properly working amplifiers using Simulators, WITHOUT any formal engineering training.

 

Aron Ralston cut off his own arm with a dull knife to get it out from under a boulder. Do you want him operating on you next time you're in the hospital?

[wgscott]

Aron Ralston cut off his own arm with a dull knife to get it out from under a boulder. Do you want him operating on you next time you're in the hospital?

 

Coincidently, I just suggested to the family we watch that movie tonight.

 

We opted instead for Hemmingway's Farewell to Arms.

[Teresa]

I voted 4. For me it needs an option. "Cables definitely sound different. Different doesn't necessarily mean better, and better doesn't necessarily mean more expensive."

 

Thanks for voting

 

I would agree that differently constructed cables may sound different. I agree more expensive doesn't mean better in anything audio related and that is one of the reasons I get a money-back guarantee or I pass.

[kumakuma]

Coincidently, I just suggested to the family we watch that movie tonight.

 

We opted instead for Hemmingway's Farewell to Arms.

 

I'm surprised the kids wanted to watch something that old. We are watching the final Hunger Games movie tonight.

[gmgraves]

An audio reviewer that refuses to accept that many people reading his work can hear differences between various types of interconnects etc. ???

Were you also involved in those infamous "All Amplifiers sound the same " Blind tests that so many conveniently ignore when raving on about how ABX tests are the Gold Standard ?

 

You also seem to have reading comprehension problems - or, a selective memory. If I had a dollar for every time I have said on CA that I have heard cable differences myself, and therefore do believe others when the say that they have heard them, I could probably buy that DGG CD collection that I've been eyeing.

 

I have also NEVER even intimated that I THOUGHT that all amplifiers sound alike, and you know it!

 

Many untrained members of audio forums such as DIYAudio have designed properly working amplifiers using Simulators, WITHOUT any formal engineering training.

 

And that's relevant, how? You brought up amplifier design, not me.

 

Many Engineers that have specialised for many years in a particular area seem to think that they are still well qualified to speak on all areas of electronics as if they are an authority, despite not being regularly updated in those other areas.

 

Well, I know lots of engineers, and not a one of them has ever expressed such a sentiment as that. You are way out of line here, Alex. Your prejudice against the engineering community is showing.

[Teresa]

You kind of set a hook in your poll to get a desired result.

 

I was forced to vote middle ground since any cable or termination can be designed poorly enough to have a negative effect on the sound. Even a digital cable, if you call dropouts or no signal at all, an audible difference.

 

Truth is that the required technical specs for proper transmission of signal X over a cable have been understood for many years. It is in no way necessary to spend more than approx. $2 a foot for quality cable in any application to get a un-degraded transfer of signal.

 

Otherwise the old timers had an appropriate saying, "a fool and his money are soon parted".

 

No hook was intended. I just wanted to find out if there were others like me who were in the middle of the cable divide and not at one of two extremes, people are thrown into at CA. And if others also hear more realistic deep low frequency energy with thicker gauge speaker cables. And if others felt that well constructed cables are important for good sound quality and durability.

 

Just because I hear fuller and more powerful bass with thicker gauge speaker cable and prefer well-constructed interconnects with good insulation I hate to be thrown in with the people who buy $10,000 cables. It’s not fair! In most other threads people only see two sides “snake oil” and “all cables sound different”. After the results of this poll I hope no tries to put people into the two extremes again but in the middle.

 

I don't believe all cables sound the same but I do believe good cables don’t have to be expensive. Did you even read the first post in this thread where I explained why?

[gmgraves]

Most EEs wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the sound created by a $40,000 Pass Labs amplifier and a 1970 Pioneer receiver; and even more importantly, if you pointed out the difference, they most likely wouldn't care!

At least you got that right !

 

Only audiophiles care about sound quality (at least at this level). So what are you beefing about? Do you somehow expect all EEs to recognize high-end sound from the mediocre? If they did, hi-fi-audio wouldn't be considered a dying interest and there would be a lot more of us!

[esldude]

Coincidently, I just suggested to the family we watch that movie tonight.

 

We opted instead for Hemmingway's Farewell to Arms.

 

Oh too cute by half!

[esldude]

I'm surprised the kids wanted to watch something that old. We are watching the final Hunger Games movie tonight.

 

Read it again friend for the joke.

[kumakuma]

Oh too cute by half!

 

Finally got it. Nice one.

[wgscott]

Had you stumped there for awhile.

[Paul R]

Coincidently, I just suggested to the family we watch that movie tonight.

 

We opted instead for Hemmingway's Farewell to Arms.

 

Arrgh!! He is infected with the dreaded disease. Fortunately, it is a 'armless disease...

[sandyk]

You are way out of line here, Alex. Your prejudice against the engineering community is showing.

 

No, my prejudice against a few highly vocal E.E. members of C.A. and their rabid supporters is showing. Some of those threads read like Groundhog Day.

You can look at many threads in the General Forum and soon work out who they are.

They attack almost every subjective report, no matter what the subject, or who the poster is.

They are trying to turn C.A. into a clone of Hydrogen Audio where subjective reports are not permitted ! You run hot and cold on the issue of differences between interconnects, even after another E.E. talks about interaction with other components. You then cover your arse by saying you have heard differences, but the next moment you are insisting that it is impossible to hear differences and quote cable measurements to back yourself up.

It's a waste of time further discussing things like this. It's about time that the hard line Objective side realised that no matter how many times they say these things, that not a single person has changed their mind, and most likely never will.

It's highly insulting to keep insinuating, as some members do, that they are imagining the differences that they hear, and it's either due to Expectation Bias, or they belong in an asylum.

[Paul R]

Had you stumped there for awhile.

 

 

Thank goodness you only pulled his left arm, he is all right then!

[Sal1950]

It's about time that the hard line Objective side realised that no matter how many times they say these things, that not a single person has changed their mind, and most likely never will.

It's highly insulting to keep insinuating, as some members do, that they are imagining the differences that they hear, and it's either due to Expectation Bias, or they belong in an asylum.

It's about time that you realize that until you can back up all the wild claims of audible differences the subjective community hears with scientific non sighted testing and measurements, your claims will forever be just opinions, most of it hot air.

Those are facts that will never change.

[RayBan]

I have used Blue Jeans interconnects numerous times. Morrow speaker cables are a perfect quality/value proposition for a $20K system. PS Audio power cables are also a A+ deal!!

[esldude]

Arrgh!! He is infected with the dreaded disease. Fortunately, it is a 'armless disease...

 

Wasn't there a WWII flic with John Wayne, In 'arms way.

[sandyk]

It's about time that you realize that until you can back up all the wild claims of audible differences the subjective community hears with scientific non sighted testing and measurements, your claims will forever be just opinions, most of it hot air.

Those are facts that will never change.

 

WTF do you think I did with the 6 separate positive Blind A/B/A sessions performed by Martin Colloms ?

You guys will always manage to find fault with the methodology of any tests performed where the results don't come out the way you wanted them to.

I have also previously posted a screen grab of the front end balancing of an amplifier constructed by DIYAudio members using my suggested balancing method, that shows reduced HF distortion, but of course the old argument about hearing not being able to hear differences this small is trotted out by the usual suspects.

( the peak around 7kHz is a computer artefact from the PC used by Melbourne DIY Audio member Jeremy.)

You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't !

 

Current Mirror Discussion - Page 15 - diyAudio

 

 

[kumakuma]

No, my prejudice against a few highly vocal E.E. members of C.A. and their rabid supporters is showing. Some of those threads read like Groundhog Day.

You can look at many threads in the General Forum and soon work out who they are.

They attack almost every subjective report, no matter what the subject, or who the poster is.

 

Really?

 

Dozens of subjective reports are posted on this forum every day and very few of them are attacked by anyone.

[esldude]

You typed:

 

Really?

 

Dozens of subjective reports are posted on this forum every day and very few of them are attacked by anyone.

 

Which is then read as :

 

Dozens of subjective reports are posted on this forum everyday and attacked by every

one.

[kumakuma]

WTF do you think I did with the 6 separate positive Blind A/B/A sessions performed by Martin Colloms ?

 

Were these tests really blind?

 

There is no mention of this fact in his report:

 

Audio Networking A potpourri of computer network audio findings, including updates on the Naim UnitiServe, gigabit switches, CAT 5/6 cable and ripping issues. Review By Martin Colloms

 

BTW, I have asked you this same question at least four times already with nothing but radio silence from you.

[sandyk]

Were these tests really blind?

 

There is no mention of this fact in his report:

 

Audio Networking A potpourri of computer network audio findings, including updates on the Naim UnitiServe, gigabit switches, CAT 5/6 cable and ripping issues. Review By Martin Colloms

 

BTW, I have asked you this same question at least four times already with nothing but radio silence from you.

 

And you will get ignored 5 times.

Ask Eloise, as she eventually contacted Martin Colloms about how they were performed after registering as a HFC Forum member. As I kept stating, and it was insinuated by several from your side that I was lying, and YOU apparently still believe that I am lying, despite me posting links to the various threads on numerous occasions , I was not privy to any further information other than was posted in HFC Forum. l even had to purchase a copy of HFC Vol.6 No.1 to see the published article, with the all too brief final report.

It's a waste of my time further replying, and Admin is likely to remove the posts anyway.

[kumakuma]

And you will get ignored 5 times.

Ask Eloise, as she eventually contacted Martin Colloms about how they were performed after registering as a HFC Forum member. As I kept stating, and it was insinuated by several from your side that I was lying, and YOU apparently still believe that I am lying, despite me posting links to the various threads on numerous occasions , I was not privy to any further information other than was posted in HFC Forum. l even had to purchase a copy of HFC Vol.6 No.1 to see the published article, with the all too brief final report.

It's a waste of my time further replying, and Admin is likely to remove the posts anyway.

 

So, in other words, you don't really know if the tests were blind but you have decided to keep calling them blind tests anyways because this makes the results more believable.

 

And you wonder why people don't you seriously.