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Poll: Where are you along the cable divide?


Where are you along the cable divide?  

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It's not a matter of unknown physics but of looking for unknown possible causes other than restricting it all to isolated LCR effects.

 

The story of TIM keeps coming to my mind: (delusional) people could hear it but (arrogant) engineers dismissed it.

 

R

 

 

That's a little different. Everybody knew (and agreed) that early solid-state amps sounded funny (they even had a name for it, "the transistor-sound"). It wasn't that engineers ignored it, it's just that the audio test methods in use at that time couldn't account for it. It didn't show up as part of THD, it didn't register as regular intermodulation distortion. Designing with transistors was brand new. Nobody had much experience with them. Most design engineers used the same topology rules as they used for tube circuits, and were confounded when they didn't work right. Yeah, it took the engineering community a number of years to get their "sea legs" and learn how to design using solid state. But TIM and SID weren't things that only a few people were aware of or that were so subtle that only the most golden of golden-eared audiophiles could hear. As soon as it was noticed, audio engineers started to look for the cause and when it was found, changes in circuit topography were immediately undertaken to correct the problem.

 

The main difference between TID. SIM etc., and interconnect sound, was that everybody knew something was wrong then and legitimate research was undertaken to find the cause. Nobody is doing any serious (by serious, I mean non-self-serving, as in cable manufacturers) research into "interconnect sound".

George

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I.E. at least we know for a fact that these conditions are real.

 

Just as we know that many Professionals, not just in Electronics and Audio, are arrogant and closed minded to any other possibilities that their earlier University training didn't teach them.

How many even bother to keep up to date with recent advances by attending refresher/update courses ?

 

The main difference between TID. SIM etc., and interconnect sound, was that everybody knew something was wrong

 

That's BS.

It took numerous consumer complaints before they were investigated by people like Dr. Matti Otala.

Your average E.E. couldn't even hear anything wrong with the original USB Audio implementations !!!

Many still can't hear anything wrong with most current USB implementations. It took E.E.'s of the calibre like John Swenson to do much needed further research in this area.

It's funny that you mention interconnect sound, as you would be about the last person to investigate that area !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Just as we know that many Professionals, not just in Electronics and Audio, are arrogant and closed minded to any other possibilities that their earlier University training didn't teach them.

How many even bother to keep up to date with recent advances by attending refresher/update courses ?

 

This latter point appears to be a figment of your imagination.

 

A quick Google search shows that the New South Wales Bar Association, the Medical Board of Australia, and Engineers Australia all have annual Continuing Professional Development requirements that require Lawyers, Doctors, and Chartered Professional Engineers respectively to take courses each year to keep their knowledge current.

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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This latter point appears to be a figment of your imagination.

 

A quick Google search shows that the New South Wales Bar Association, the Medical Board of Australia, and Engineers Australia all have annual Continuing Professional Development requirements that require Lawyers, Doctors, and Chartered Professional Engineers respectively to take courses each year to keep their knowledge current.

 

But we aren't talking about any E.E. from NSW Au. that is currently participating in any C.A. thread that I am aware of. Many of the hard line Objective EE's posting here are also likely to be retired, just like George (?) , and are not required to update their knowledge.

BTW, I asked a question, NOT made a definitive statement.

Do you REALLY believe that refresher courses cover the whole gamut of Electronics ? They are far more likely to apply to just the narrow field they are employed in.

I wouldn't mind betting that some currently posting E.Es couldn't even design a properly working Power Amplifier or a DAC these days.

mansr may be an exception to that though .

 

This latter point appears to be a figment of your imagination.

So you aren't disagreeing with my first point?

Add to that first part : Just like the BS from Sony and Philips about CD having "Perfect Sound", and trying to demonstrate how impervious the discs were to scuffs etc.?

It took people like Ben Duncan in Hi Fi News and Record Review in his series "Supertuning CD" in November 1987 to highlight how Sony and Philips E.E.s weren't correctly implementing the analogue area of their CD players.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Do you REALLY believe that refresher courses cover the whole gamut of Electronics ? They are far more likely to apply to just the narrow field they are employed in.

 

I'm always impressed how you have managed to stay current and have obtained a much better understanding of EE and computer science than most professionals in the field. I really applaud your remarkable abilities and dedication.

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I really applaud your remarkable abilities and dedication.

 

Thank you Professor Scott. Coming from such a distinguished Scientist and teacher as yourself , that's high praise indeed !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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My brother swears he can hear a difference with silver speaker cables and insists on sending me some $400 cables. I don't doubt that he can hear a difference, but i don't think i can hear a difference over a decent gauge copper cable....i have some higher end monster cables which i think are more than sufficient, but don't doubt some people can hear a difference "up to a point"...

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It took numerous consumer complaints before they were investigated by people like Dr. Matti Otala.

Your average E.E. couldn't even hear anything wrong with the original USB Audio implementations !!!

Many still can't hear anything wrong with most current USB implementations. It took E.E.'s of the calibre like John Swenson to do much needed further research in this area.

It's funny that you mention interconnect sound, as you would be about the last person to investigate that area !

 

I could agree with the possibility that some audio engineers don't know how to do listening evaluations as the same seems to happen with some music engineers.

 

And just because people are trained and their knowledge is kept up-to-date by governing boards doesn't mean that all of them produce the same standard level of work either; that's just a fallacy of modern society (we all go to school and get taught the same information but through our interests and innate abilities we come out with different skills and knowledge).

 

I've listened to a different array of modified/optimized commercial audio equipment (sources, amplification, speakers) and that has made me question how much effort and knowledge manufacturers put into their products.

How many CD players or DACs go beyond chips-manufacturers' guidelines for their implementation?

How many manufacturers take care with grounding and power supplies?

How many go beyond the specs sheets?

 

R

"Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes

 

HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256)

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How many CD players or DACs go beyond chips-manufacturers' guidelines for their implementation?

How many manufacturers take care with grounding and power supplies?

How many go beyond the specs sheets?

 

All very good questions ! An experienced DIY person can markedly improve many commercial products.

However, how much blame can be also assigned to "the Bean Counters"?

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Voted middle ground but really fall somewhere between that and third option.

Have heard too many demos where just changing cables has improved system to not believe they can make a difference. But hey, everyone has their opinion on this and to those that don't hear any difference, my hats off to you.

David

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Thank you Professor Scott. Coming from such a distinguished Scientist and teacher as yourself , that's high praise indeed !

 

You and your bully friends (or are they your sock-puppet accounts) like Audio6 seem rather fixated on my alleged inability to teach science. Instead of thuggishly and repeatedly threatening to complain to my University that I hold opinions at variance to those you favor, perhaps they or you could simply explain how I really should be doing my job. I'm sure it could be quite enlightening for all of those who fall short of your high standards of truth and objectivity, not just me.

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Thank you Professor Scott. Coming from such a distinguished Scientist and teacher as yourself , that's high praise indeed !

 

Actually Professor Scott is a distinguished scientist. Not much doubt of that.

 

I never had him for a class, so I can't comment. I probably couldn't keep up anyway.

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I voted option three. In my experience I believe that I have heard differences in cables. If asked for advice from someone just getting started I wouldn't advocate anything more than option two.

 

If pressed why my advice and beliefs differ I would offer that my belief is in no way universal and one could give new cables a try but they would be best served doing so in a way he or she doesn't get stuck footing a hefty bill if they find that they hear no difference.

Nvidia ION running JRiver 21 on Win 7

- USB to Firestone Audio Bravo USB to SPDIF Converter. Optical to miniDSP NanoDigi eq/crossover. SPDIF to 2 Cambridge Audio DacMagics. Analogue to Audio Refinement Pre-5 to 2 M&K V-75 powered subwoofers & Audio Refinement Multi-2 power amp to Focal Chorus 716s.

- Intel NUC on Win 10 as JRiver 21 DLNA renderer. USB to Breeze Audio DU-U8 USB to SPDIF converter. SPDIF to Anthem MRX-520. Mirage OMD-5: left, right & surrounds. Mirage OMD-C1: center. SVS-SB-2000: subwoofer.

- Raspberry Pi2 with HifiBerry Dac+Pro on Volumio DLNA renderer to Rega Mira 3 to Dali Zensor 1s.

- Raspberry Pi2 with HifiBerry Dac+Standard on Volumio DLNA renderer to NAD 312 to PSB Alphas.

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You and your bully friends (or are they your sock-puppet accounts) like Audio6 seem rather fixated on my alleged inability to teach science. Instead of thuggishly and repeatedly threatening to complain to my University that I hold opinions at variance to those you favor, perhaps they or you could simply explain how I really should be doing my job. I'm sure it could be quite enlightening for all of those who fall short of your high standards of truth and objectivity, not just me.

 

You really are paranoid !

I would never do anything like you are suggesting, or condone it either, and have also previously advised Audio6 to back off.

A true Scientist has an open mind to other possibilities, which is something you do not appear to have, at least in the areas encompassed by this forum.

My only real gripe with you is your excessive and continuing use of cleverly worded sarcasm in an attempt to silence those whose views you do not agree with.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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It mainly depends on the type of cable being made, but a decent quality soldering iron and 4% silver solder, wire cutters/strippers and various sizes of heat-shrink tube are the stock items (all available on eBay)... then you choose your materials (the wire and the connectors) and make them up.

 

That's about it.

 

 

When I first started in this hobby, as a teen, one had no choice but to fabricate one's own interconnects. They were mostly unreliable because they had no strain relief and it was easy to get the center conductor's insulation sheath too hot when soldering the connector's pin. This melted the sheath, paving the way for a short down the road. I hated DIY cables, and when commercially made ones became available, I never looked back!

George

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I voted for 4

 

IMO:

Excellent SQ can be reached only with precisely constructed and shielded cables.

The cable price does not necessarily show it's quality.

Cables don't sound, because they aren't sound source. They cause distortion, as any other part of sound chain. Differences in amount and character of that distortion cause different "cable sound". Silver or teflon is not necessary for excellent results.

 

I did listening comparison of many analog RCA cables (commercial up to $200, DIY, different materials). The result: I am using a cable not produced for audio, but for telecommunication sector FSJ1-50A

 

And ... connectors are also part of the cable. Changing RCA plugs on the same cable can cause audible differences. It's again 'only' about distortion.

 

I never did listening comparison of different soldering materials. ;)

i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500
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Just as we know that many Professionals, not just in Electronics and Audio, are arrogant and closed minded to any other possibilities that their earlier University training didn't teach them.

How many even bother to keep up to date with recent advances by attending refresher/update courses ?

 

Most engineers keep up with their FIELD. Like medicine, electrical engineering is specialized. Also like medical doctors, they all have a foundation in the basics, but then they specialize. Just as at a certain level, a neurologist understands appendicitis, a semiconductor designer, understands, for instance, tube transconductance. And to carry the analogy further, just as a neurologist might not have kept-up with the latest diagnostic techniques for appendicitis or the latest in laparoscopy for removing an appendix, the semiconductor engineer probably wouldn't know the proper design criteria for a modern tube amp. That doesn't mean that they are arrogant and closed minded to other possibilities that their training didn't teach them.

 

 

 

That's BS.

It took numerous consumer complaints before they were investigated by people like Dr. Matti Otala.

 

By everybody knew, I was talking about the everybody who was a serious audiophile.

 

 

Your average E.E. couldn't even hear anything wrong with the original USB Audio implementations !!!

 

I wasn't aware that we were discussing USB cables, here, but the short answer is that your average EE is NOT an audiophile and hasn't trained themselves to be a critical listener. They were designing a computer interface bus, and sound quality was most likely beyond their interest in the subject. I'll bet that their are lots of cab drivers and Sous-chefs who did't hear anything wrong with the original USB implementation either because they simply DIDN'T CARE!

 

Many still can't hear anything wrong with most current USB implementations. It took E.E.'s of the calibre like John Swenson to do much needed further research in this area.

 

That's because Swenson is, like Matti Otala, an AUDIO ENGINEER. Don't look now, Alex, but that's a rather specialized niche in the field of Electronics Engineering. An audio engineer needs that university training that you seem to think is so mind narrowing, AND he has to be an audiophile who has trained himself to hear audio anomalies. Most EEs wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the sound created by a $40,000 Pass Labs amplifier and a 1970 Pioneer receiver; and even more importantly, if you pointed out the difference, they most likely wouldn't care!

 

 

It's funny that you mention interconnect sound, as you would be about the last person to investigate that area !

 

You're right there! It is a matter of mild academic interest to me. I will discuss it (with regard to possible theories about what is the mechanism behind this phenomenon, if anything) with other rational souls here, but I'm simply not neurotic enough to go chasing down that particular rabbit hole by trying different cables to see which one my neurosis thinks sounds best. Good equipment sounds fine and doesn't need the addition of what are probably fixed "tone controls", at best, and some self-delusion at worst. If I want "tone controls" I'll buy a graphic equalizer. But I would be interested to hear that some heretofore unknown property of wire has been found that ONLY affects musical waveforms but doesn't affect any other electrical signals that it might be carrying. Now that would be news and especially what would be news is how does the wire know the difference? :)

George

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But we aren't talking about any E.E. from NSW Au. that is currently participating in any C.A. thread that I am aware of. Many of the hard line Objective EE's posting here are also likely to be retired, just like George (?) , and are not required to update their knowledge.

 

You're right Alex, I am retired. I'm not required to update my knowledge - anymore. When I was working, like any working engineer, I HAD to keep up with my field, lest I become unemployable. The training doesn't have to be formal though. The competition in the field makes staying current (or a little ahead of the field) de riguer. However, I am still an audio reviewer and that means that I also have stay abreast of this field. I do that by reading and participating on forms like this one.

 

BTW, I asked a question, NOT made a definitive statement.

Do you REALLY believe that refresher courses cover the whole gamut of Electronics ? They are far more likely to apply to just the narrow field they are employed in.

 

Yes, and that's bad, how? Electronics is too wide a field for engineers NOT to specialize.

 

I wouldn't mind betting that some currently posting E.Es couldn't even design a properly working Power Amplifier or a DAC these days.

 

It's a dead-cinch certainty! However, with their training, any competent EE could quickly find the information right here on the internet to design one that would work perfectly because they DO know the fundamentals of amplification. From what you've said, Alex, it seems like you don't really know much about engineers and engineering.

 

mansr may be an exception to that though.

 

I don't think Mansr has told us what his field of expertise is. I will say that he seems to know a lot more about audio electronics and electronic engineering, in general, than does present company!

George

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My brother swears he can hear a difference with silver speaker cables and insists on sending me some $400 cables. I don't doubt that he can hear a difference, but i don't think i can hear a difference over a decent gauge copper cable....i have some higher end monster cables which i think are more than sufficient, but don't doubt some people can hear a difference "up to a point"...

 

 

Speaker cables are a different animal. They interact, with far more important consequences, with the amp and the speaker that they are interconnecting than do small signal cables like what we call "interconnects". Some speaker/amp combos are very sensitive to cable characteristics, and others couldn't care less! Most speaker/amp combos simply need that the cable be of sufficient gauge to carry the required current, and be of low enough impedance not to mess with the amplifier's load too much.

George

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You really are paranoid !

I would never do anything like you are suggesting, or condone it either, and have also previously advised Audio6 to back off.

A true Scientist has an open mind to other possibilities, which is something you do not appear to have, at least in the areas encompassed by this forum.

My only real gripe with you is your excessive and continuing use of cleverly worded sarcasm in an attempt to silence those whose views you do not agree with.

 

 

Alex, pardon me for butting-in, but I don't think he's trying to silence you, he's just having a little fun at your expense. You come off so stuffy sometimes, that I suspect that the sarcasm is a light-hearted ploy to get YOU to lighten-up!

George

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All very good questions ! An experienced DIY person can markedly improve many commercial products.

However, how much blame can be also assigned to "the Bean Counters"?

 

 

In any endeavor where a "product" is made, unless it's a very small company, bean counters are much more responsible for the final product than most people realize!

George

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You kind of set a hook in your poll to get a desired result.

I was forced to vote middle ground since any cable or termination can be designed poorly enough to have a negative effect on the sound. Even a digital cable, if you call dropouts or no signal at all, an audible difference.

Truth is that the required technical specs for proper transmission of signal X over a cable have been understood for many years. It is in no way necessary to spend more than approx. $2 a foot for quality cable in any application to get a un-degraded transfer of signal.

Otherwise the old timers had an appropriate saying, "a fool and his money are soon parted".

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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Alex, pardon me for butting-in, but I don't think he's trying to silence you, he's just having a little fun at your expense. You come off so stuffy sometimes, that I suspect that the sarcasm is a light-hearted ploy to get YOU to lighten-up!

 

No, Bill has actually been attacked off line from members (or ex-members) of this forum. I have too for that matter, but they could cause me a whole lot less grief than they could cause Bill. Who really is a well known Professor.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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