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Poll: Where are you along the cable divide?


Where are you along the cable divide?  

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So, in other words, you don't really know if the tests were blind but you have decided to keep calling them blind tests anyways because this makes the results more believable.

 

And you wonder why people don't you seriously.

 

You have seen the posted links on numerous occasions in the past few years, and even made comments , yet now you claim that you don't know about any of the supplied information, or have even seen the threads that I provided links to. You need to see your GP as soon as possible about the possible onset of Alzheimers disease.

 

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Liar,Liar&biw=1097&bih=530&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj3vIHBmb3LAhXiG6YKHeNNCqEQ_AUIBygC#imgrc=Ck2wG5bJTqpjNM%3A

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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WTF do you think I did with the 6 separate positive Blind A/B/A sessions performed by Martin Colloms ?

You guys will always manage to find fault with the methodology of any tests performed where the results don't come out the way you wanted them to.

I have also previously posted a screen grab of the front end balancing of an amplifier constructed by DIYAudio members using my suggested balancing method, that shows reduced HF distortion, but of course the old argument about hearing not being able to hear differences this small is trotted out by the usual suspects.

( the peak around 7kHz is a computer artefact from the PC used by Melbourne DIY Audio member Jeremy.)

You are damned if you do, and damned if you don't !

 

Current Mirror Discussion - Page 15 - diyAudio

 

 

5v7Nv5.jpg

 

Who's talking about amps? This thread is on cables. But the silly claims cover the gamut from green pens to SR's "grown" dots, multi thousand dollar power cords, batteries taped to analog cables, on and on and on, ad nauseam.

The subjective community has run totally off it's tracks.

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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It's about time that you realize that until you can back up all the wild claims of audible differences the subjective community hears with scientific non sighted testing and measurements, your claims will forever be just opinions, most of it hot air.

Those are facts that will never change.

 

My post with the screen grab was posted in reply to your post in this thread.

It shows that wherever possible I try to provide measurements or other suitable verification.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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My post with the screen grab was posted in reply to your post in this thread.

It shows that wherever possible I try to provide measurements or other suitable verification.

 

Great, Alex! When can we expect to see some of this "suitable verification"? (Sorry Alex, couldn't resist :) )

George

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WTF do you think I did with the 6 separate positive Blind A/B/A sessions performed by Martin Colloms.

 

You have seen the posted links on numerous occasions in the past few years, and even made comments , yet now you claim that you don't know about any of the supplied information, or have even seen the threads that I provided links to. You need to see your GP as soon as possible about the possible onset of Alzheimers disease.

 

I reviewed the links you refer to again and there is no indication that the tests described in HFC Vol.6 No.1 were blind tests.

 

This statement from Martin Colloms at the beginning of the first thread makes it pretty clear that they weren't:

 

We are beyond the point where silly objections and calls for DB testing should be introduced, some intelligent reasoning is now required.

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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I reviewed the links you refer to again and there is no indication that the tests described in HFC Vol.6 No.1 were blind tests.

 

This statement from Martin Colloms at the beginning of the first thread makes it pretty clear that they weren't:

 

Not only are you a liar , you are BLIND tool !

The attached link was posted in C.A. on numerous occasions too.

#10 Posted : 4 years ago

there is a nice twist to this story

 

 

Alex sent me at various points, three rips of his rips of Private Investigations

 

one , as it comes but not identified, with another, which later turned out to have the improved drive power supplies

 

We were able to easily distinguish double blind , ( we did not know which track was which until Alex told us later) the two rips, and describe the clear fidelity advantage of one , which turned out to be with the improved drive.

Alex then sent a third for auditioning , which we judged as improved, but not as convincing musically as the second.

 

The twist was that Alex had at first convinced himself that it was still better because he had done further work on the supplies.

 

His further listening then indicated on reflection that he had not got it right but he was still interested to see whether independent parties across the ocean via zip files could report the correct state of affairs. We could and we did , much to Alex's satisfaction, who has now corrected that phase of development.

 

The listening process is much like auditioning a series of review CD players.

 

As Ross Walker once said, more or less, 'all CD players are bit perfect and are thus perfect and all sound the same'.

 

An admirable and well respected site devoted to computer audio is simply in denial over the Kethel research.

 

We know better now

 

Martin C

 

Kethel ripping results second session - General HIFI Discussion - HIFICRITIC FORUM - HIFICRITIC FORUM : hi fi audio systems forum

 

 

Kethel ripping results second session - Page 3 - General HIFI Discussion - HIFICRITIC FORUM - HIFICRITIC FORUM : hi fi audio systems forum See posts by Eloise

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Kethel ripping results second session - Page 3 - General HIFI Discussion - HIFICRITIC FORUM - HIFICRITIC FORUM : hi fi audio systems forum

 

You can also read post #43 and #44. The first by Eloise, known as audio_ELF here on CA with a reply by Martin Colloms.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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I voted 4. For me it needs an option. "Cables definitely sound different. Different doesn't necessarily mean better, and better doesn't necessarily mean more expensive."

 

+1.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Not only are you a liar , you are BLIND tool !

The attached link was posted in C.A. on numerous occasions too.

 

I didn't realize you were referring to a second set of tests done after the article in HFC Vol.6 No.1 was published. You keeping mentioning this article in your posts so I assumed this is what you were talking about.

 

What issue of HFC were these second set of results published in?

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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No, my prejudice against a few highly vocal E.E. members of C.A. and their rabid supporters is showing. Some of those threads read like Groundhog Day.

You can look at many threads in the General Forum and soon work out who they are.

They attack almost every subjective report, no matter what the subject, or who the poster is.

They are trying to turn C.A. into a clone of Hydrogen Audio where subjective reports are not permitted ! You run hot and cold on the issue of differences between interconnects, even after another E.E. talks about interaction with other components. You then cover your arse by saying you have heard differences, but the next moment you are insisting that it is impossible to hear differences and quote cable measurements to back yourself up.

 

Now, you're being disingenuous, Alex. I have never said that I haven't heard differences in cables*. I've never said that others like you haven't heard differences in cables. What I have had said is that all of the evidence points to those differences being illusory. I have also said that I would love to read where some real research has turned-up a heretofore unknown characteristic of wire that would explain cable sound (and why this characteristic ONLY affects music, and no other kind of signal), but, and I can't stress this too strongly, I'm not holding my breath for this dubious "breakthrough". I have also said, that even if interconnect sound were found to be real, and there was a solid technical explanation for it, beyond an academic interest in uncovering the unknown, I wouldn't care (unless that characteristic were actually introducing audible distortion, in which case I would likely embrace it), and I still wouldn't equip my system with "audiophile approved" cables, because a good system sounds fine without "gilding the lily". Now, have I missed anything, or do you have more imaginary transgressions of which you would like to accuse me?

 

It's a waste of time further discussing things like this.

 

You are wrong. It's never a waste of time to discuss things. That's how people learn. Only the thin-skinned would want to correspond in an atmosphere where everybody has the same ideas and believes in the same things. Maybe you should go find some religious group to post to. Many of those are closely moderated, and won't allow any dissenting posts. There used to be a moderated Usenet high-end audio group, that was tightly controlled, but while they didn't allow some types of posts, dissenting and differing opinions weren't among those things not allowed. You just had to keep it civil and when you made an allegation against another poster, you had to back it up with a quote.

 

 

It's about time that the hard line Objective side realised that no matter how many times they say these things, that not a single person has changed their mind, and most likely never will.

 

Are you sure that these "hard-line objectivists" are trying to change anyone's mind? I can only speak for myself, of course, but I wouldn't dream of trying to changing yours or anyone else's mind!

 

It's highly insulting to keep insinuating, as some members do, that they are imagining the differences that they hear, and it's either due to Expectation Bias, or they belong in an asylum.

 

I suspect that, again, only the thin-skinned are insulted by these discussions and only the very narrow-minded would want to post to a forum where no one ever disagreed. Alex, you add a lot to these discussions when you are not being a religious zealot (your "religion", in this context, being audio), and I, for one would hate to see a CA where "SandyK" didn't contribute, and often. But my advice to you is that if you don't want to read anyone casting aspersions on your audio "religious belief system", then I suggest that you not get involved in threads where this is done. It's a free forum, and there is room here for all kinds of ideas and opinions, even those based on faith as opposed to logic and science. But occasionally we are all going to see people post things with which we don't agree. I'm fine with it, as are most of us. With a little effort and restraint on your part, I suspect that you can learn to be fine with it too.

 

* The first time I "heard" the difference between interconnects was at the 1977 Summer CES in Chicago. Noel Lee the head of Monster Cable was demoing his new, top of the line interconnects by replacing what looked like one of those old gray Radio Shack cables with his Monster cable. I heard what I thought was a small, but distinct difference between the Radio Shack cable and the Monster cable. All that I noted was that they were "different", I really couldn't say that one was better than the other, but Noel Lee could! He told the assembled listeners in no uncertain terms, that his cable was a distinct improvement over the generic RS cable. I remember thinking to myself, "Oh no, now, we have to worry about cables as well as the components that make up our audio systems." Luckily, what I heard was expectational bias. Noel told me that I would hear a difference, and by cracky, I did!

George

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Wait a minute, is this:

 

#10 Posted : 4 years ago

there is a nice twist to this story

 

 

Alex sent me at various points, three rips of his rips of Private Investigations

 

one , as it comes but not identified, with another, which later turned out to have the improved drive power supplies

 

We were able to easily distinguish double blind , ( we did not know which track was which until Alex told us later) the two rips, and describe the clear fidelity advantage of one , which turned out to be with the improved drive.

Alex then sent a third for auditioning , which we judged as improved, but not as convincing musically as the second.

 

The twist was that Alex had at first convinced himself that it was still better because he had done further work on the supplies.

 

His further listening then indicated on reflection that he had not got it right but he was still interested to see whether independent parties across the ocean via zip files could report the correct state of affairs. We could and we did , much to Alex's satisfaction, who has now corrected that phase of development.

 

The listening process is much like auditioning a series of review CD players.

 

As Ross Walker once said, more or less, 'all CD players are bit perfect and are thus perfect and all sound the same'.

 

An admirable and well respected site devoted to computer audio is simply in denial over the Kethel research.

 

We know better now

 

Martin C

 

Kethel ripping results second session - General HIFI Discussion - HIFICRITIC FORUM - HIFICRITIC FORUM : hi fi audio systems forum

 

 

Kethel ripping results second session - Page 3 - General HIFI Discussion - HIFICRITIC FORUM - HIFICRITIC FORUM : hi fi audio systems forum See posts by Eloise

about Interconnects or CD drives? We're talking about Interconnect sound here. I don't think anyone would argue that CD players sound different for any number of reasons! You are muddying the waters of this discussion by bringing up amplifier and CD players. There is no doubt that different designs of active equipment will result in different sound. Nobody is denying that. It's interconnects that defy logic and physics by sounding "different" from one another when they shouldn't, and indeed, couldn't!

George

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Alex, You could always go over to the head-fi Cable, Power, Tweaks forum where even the mention of the words ABX and DBT is banned.

A sad situation. :(

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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[With a little effort and restraint on your part, I suspect that you can learn to be fine with it too.

Perhaps you should practice what you preach George ? You keep regurgitating the same stuff over and over again in every cable thread.

Since when have you guys stuck to the actual topic of threads such as the cable threads ?

They should have passed their use by date long ago, or new threads started.

Perhaps I should ignore insulting posts by certain members who keep insinuating that I am a liar ?

Are YOU strong willed enough to ignore them, which many may take as an admission that you are incorrect ?

sal posted a comment about Subjective reports in general, never having any support with measurements etc. All I did was post a few instances where I have provided this material.

Then, as usual, somebody accuses me of lying !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

Link to comment
Wait a minute, is this:

 

#10 Posted : 4 years ago

there is a nice twist to this story

 

 

Alex sent me at various points, three rips of his rips of Private Investigations

 

one , as it comes but not identified, with another, which later turned out to have the improved drive power supplies

 

We were able to easily distinguish double blind , ( we did not know which track was which until Alex told us later) the two rips, and describe the clear fidelity advantage of one , which turned out to be with the improved drive.

Alex then sent a third for auditioning , which we judged as improved, but not as convincing musically as the second.

 

The twist was that Alex had at first convinced himself that it was still better because he had done further work on the supplies.

 

His further listening then indicated on reflection that he had not got it right but he was still interested to see whether independent parties across the ocean via zip files could report the correct state of affairs. We could and we did , much to Alex's satisfaction, who has now corrected that phase of development.

 

The listening process is much like auditioning a series of review CD players.

 

As Ross Walker once said, more or less, 'all CD players are bit perfect and are thus perfect and all sound the same'.

 

An admirable and well respected site devoted to computer audio is simply in denial over the Kethel research.

 

We know better now

 

Martin C

 

Kethel ripping results second session - General HIFI Discussion - HIFICRITIC FORUM - HIFICRITIC FORUM : hi fi audio systems forum

 

 

Kethel ripping results second session - Page 3 - General HIFI Discussion - HIFICRITIC FORUM - HIFICRITIC FORUM : hi fi audio systems forum See posts by Eloise

about Interconnects or CD drives? We're talking about Interconnect sound here. I don't think anyone would argue that CD players sound different for any number of reasons! You are muddying the waters of this discussion by bringing up amplifier and CD players. There is no doubt that different designs of active equipment will result in different sound. Nobody is denying that. It's interconnects that defy logic and physics by sounding "different" from one another when they shouldn't, and indeed, couldn't!

 

Alex claims that two bit for bit identical RIPs of a CD, stored on the same media and played back over the same audio system will sound different one frm the other, if the ripper device is supplied with one of his DIY power supplies for one f the RIPs

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Alex, You could always go over to the head-fi Cable, Power, Tweaks forum where even the mention of the words ABX and DBT is banned.

A sad situation. :(

 

Sal

I don't have a problem with ABX tests that are correctly performed by people who REALLY know what they are doing, and are able to overcome the stress of long and repetitive ABX sessions. I use non sighted testing for myself, and a friend did the same here yesterday when he tried listening to 3 separate comparison CDs that I had made for possible distribution, in addition to the 2 lots of 3 already waiting for M.C. to find the time to check them out , then distribute them to interested HFC Forum members who have suitable quality CD/DVD players etc.

Have you ever tried participating in DBT's where you have a vested interest in the results, where there are 20 pairs of comparison files, AND there are a total of 3 lots of the same 20 pairs, where the choices are in a different order as well in each group ? I ended up with dangerously high BP and diminished hearing when attempting this..

Your average E.E. or self trained "expert" more than likely couldn't organise a fully acceptable DBT session.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Alex claims that two bit for bit identical RIPs of a CD, stored on the same media and played back over the same audio system will sound different one frm the other, if the ripper device is supplied with one of his DIY power supplies for one f the RIPs

 

Paul

All of this is completely off topic, and it is highly likely that Admin will remove all such posts in this thread.

I admit to having a lack of will power in ignoring posts where certain members continually snipe at me, or insinuate that I am a liar.

Can we please get back to the original topic before Admin intervenes again?

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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I didn't realize you were referring to a second set of tests done after the article in HFC Vol.6 No.1 was published. You keeping mentioning this article in your posts so I assumed this is what you were talking about.

 

What issue of HFC were these second set of results published in?

 

Yet once again , you have got it wrong. The full post that I quoted was posted well BEFORE HFC Vol.6 no.1 was published.

Please stop this continual sniping !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Yet once again , you have got it wrong. The full post that I quoted was posted well BEFORE HFC Vol.6 no.1 was published.

Please stop this continual sniping !

 

Thanks for clarifying the timeline.

 

Unlike CA, posts on Martin's forum don't have exact dates on them.

 

For example, the date on Martin's first post in the "Kethel ripping results second session" thread is dated "4 years ago" leading me to believe that it written after HFC Vol.6 no.1 which has a cover date of January-March 2012.

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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Sal

I don't have a problem with ABX tests that are correctly performed by people who REALLY know what they are doing, and are able to overcome the stress of long and repetitive ABX sessions. I use non sighted testing for myself, and a friend did the same here yesterday when he tried listening to 3 separate comparison CDs that I had made for possible distribution, in addition to the 2 lots of 3 already waiting for M.C. to find the time to check them out , then distribute them to interested HFC Forum members who have suitable quality CD/DVD players etc.

Have you ever tried participating in DBT's where you have a vested interest in the results, where there are 20 pairs of comparison files, AND there are a total of 3 lots of the same 20 pairs, where the choices are in a different order as well in each group ? I ended up with dangerously high BP and diminished hearing when attempting this..

Your average E.E. or self trained "expert" more than likely couldn't organise a fully acceptable DBT session.

Alex, No doubt the tests can be extremely difficult, time consuming and stress inducing. But if any real truths are to be learned and progress made in the SOTA, they must be performed. Sighted, biased listening never proves anything accept what the listener wants the outcome to be.

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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Alex, No doubt the tests can be extremely difficult, time consuming and stress inducing. But if any real truths are to be learned and progress made in the SOTA, they must be performed. Sighted, biased listening never proves anything accept what the listener wants the outcome to be.

There has to be a better way to do it, without such a long and exhausting process.We need more methods to monitor a person's response to different stimuli. This may mean monitoring brain activity etc. I do agree about sighted tests, which is why at our Sydney listening sessions, only the person/s making the changes normally knows which cable or device is in use at a particular time. Most gear is left powered up to avoid the time consuming warm up cycle, so that is not normally a give away either.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Kethel ripping results second session - Page 3 - General HIFI Discussion - HIFICRITIC FORUM - HIFICRITIC FORUM : hi fi audio systems forum

 

You can also read post #43 and #44. The first by Eloise, known as audio_ELF here on CA with a reply by Martin Colloms.

 

Thanks for the link, it is my hope that post #44 will finally put this issue to bed.

 

#44 Posted : 3 months ago

Martin Colloms

Rank: Moderator

 

as I have said before.....

Alex had coded the file names

 

I and my co worker were individually subjected to random presentations for the coded files , presentation length to choice.

 

We judged sound quality for each presentation.

 

We were very familiar with the program material, which dates from the beginning of CD.

Issues included depth layering, guitar transients and leading edge definition, also vocal clarity and focus precision.

 

We admit to using a very high quality replay system.

 

The music files were differentiated, if to a small degree, the difference found similar to that pertaining to an SPDIF cable substitution, but rather less than the loss found going to an optical connection.

 

Our preference in respect of the the Kethel files, which had arrived zipped, was for the rip using the improved power supply.

 

Similar changes may be observed with USB DACS when trying out alternative supplies.

In neither case can bit or digital data or audio domain errors be discovered under laboratory analysis.

 

Martin Colloms

 

So clean power sounds the best. Isn't it time to get off of Alex's (SandyK) back?

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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Who's talking about amps? This thread is on cables.

 

Sal as the thread starter that is correct and I wish it would stay on what part of the cable divide the poster is on.

 

We could stay on subject if objectivists would quit attacking Alex over the blind test that they refuse to believe in nearly every thread. It has been going on for four years, why? I don't give a damn what about that test either pro or con! Why do some people think it is so important? Damn!

 

...But the silly claims cover the gamut from green pens to SR's "grown" dots, multi thousand dollar power cords, batteries taped to analog cables, on and on and on, ad nauseam.

The subjective community has run totally off it's tracks.

 

This has nothing to do with the subjective community or being a subjectivist.

 

From Wikipedia: Subjectivism is the philosophical tenet that "our own mental activity is the only unquestionable fact of our experience". In other words, subjectivism is the doctrine that knowledge is merely subjective and that there is no external or objective truth.

 

FYI Green pens did actually change the sound, some said it was better, some said it was worse. Prof. Johnson ran some tests and the green pen actually increases jitter. (a negative)

 

I don't know about the other things you mentioned as I would never consider purchasing them so I have no idea if they effect the sound, positively or negatively and neither do you. So quit using such to attack subjectivists. We return what doesn't deliver on promises, sounds the same or sounds worse. Let capitalism take it's course, companies who make stuff that doesn't do as promised eventually go out of business due to too many returns under the satisfaction guarantees they have to offer nowadays. No one ever needs to be stuck with snake oil. Never!

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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