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Poll: Where are you along the cable divide?


Where are you along the cable divide?  

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Something for nothing. There is audible differences between cables but where do we draw the line for how much we pay. Bear in mind nearly all recordings are made using cables which are commercial grade industry ones, and certainly no exotic Hi-Fi ones in this camp. The Pro industry has never taken notice of so called better sounding HiFi cables(in fact laugh at them) except for one Barry Diament.

 

I have been through Zip cord, Monster, Van Den Hul, Audioquest and now with Nordost(Last 15 years). I do have the latest Heimdall II interconnects and only because my mother died and left me some money. They definitely beat my old steadfast original Blue Heavens but they cost almost 5 times the price.

 

I'm at my limit even though I could go to Frey II but just can't justify the cost. The Cable industry has lost touch with reality but people are paying the prices asked.

 

Listen and buy what you can afford. Often upgrading the source gives a bigger upgrade than cables.

 

Robert

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No, your response demonstrated your paranoia and inflated sense of self importance. Reminds me of $30k interconnects- all fluf.

 

Do go to bed.

 

Aw, I should not have said that- not because it isn't true, but just because *I* am tired. I am going to go and listen to some sweet music.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Believe me, Alex, you are better off just ignoring those people who call you a liar. You'll never convince them otherwise...

 

Why will Alex not be able to convince them otherwise? I thought post #10 and post #44 from the Hi Fi Critic Forum would convince everyone that Alex (Sandyk) has been telling the truth all along for these past four years. And that they have been unfairly persecuting him because the results go against their objectivist religion.

 

People stop it already, enough is enough!

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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Teresa

You are wasting your time. They don't believe Barry Diament either, or even the lady quoted below.

Regards

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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My God get over your selves if you really care about MUSIC listen to what you love to the best of your ability to hear this at the highest level you can or want to afford.

 

At the end of the day it is about the MUSIC at least I hope it is, cause it is for me and always has been. Listen to some live music in different venues to get a comparison.

 

Not worth wasting time on forums discussing what should be or not with cables when you could be listening to music.

 

Life is short I know my wife was taken from me at 50 with cancer. She loved music as it was presented good or bad.

 

Mind you she never realised how good it can be in the home until she heard my sound system.

 

She loved it and she asked what was a CABLE?

 

Robert

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…FYI Green pens did actually change the sound, some said it was better, some said it was worse. Prof. Johnson ran some tests and the green pen actually increases jitter. (a negative)…

 

I wonder how that jitter manifested itself subjectively...what it sounds like…

R

 

A very good question.

 

Yes I've read your review on the green pen. The whole fiasco is now looked back on as a complete comedy routine by most everyone. Tell me true, do you still treat optical discs this way. LOL

 

"I selected Chris Isaak's analog recorded Heart Shaped World as this is one of my best sounding non-audiophile pre-recorded cassettes, and I thought it would be good to have a back up copy as Nakamichi cassette deck parts are getting scarce. The CD untreated was pale in comparison, there was more resonance in Chris Isaak's voice and more wood sound on the box of his acoustic guitar on the cassette. However when I treated the CD I noticed CD Stoplight brought the CD much closer to the realism of the pre-recorded cassette. The greened CD sounds wonderful and quite enjoyable, not high resolution but neither is the cassette. The importance of this test was to compare two low resolution formats, one I enjoy (cassette) and one I historically have had problems listening to (CD). The fact that this CD sounded good enough that I have since played it again means that the combination of hardware improvements and the use of CD Stoplight might just mean I can occasionally enjoy a CD."

green pen sacd

 

Thanks, I knew I had tried CD Stoplight in the past, I just can’t remember the details, looks like I tried CD Stoplight several times. I enjoyed rereading that article which was from Positive Feedback, Issue 43 May - June 2009. Damn my lack of short-term and long-term memory. There must be much more going on besides an increased level of jitter.

 

I only have one recording treated with CD Stoplight as I had to sell my Teac reel to reel tape deck, Nakamichi cassette deck, Music Hall mmf-5 turntable, Yamaha SACD/DVD-Audio Video player and all my recordings (LPs, reel to reel tapes, cassettes, SACDs, DVD-Audios, etc.) about five or six years ago due to severe financial problems as I didn’t want to be homeless.

 

I recorded my favorites at 24/96kHz using the tape loop on my preamp to the analog in on my Mac Mini using Monster Cable R+L RCA cable to mini stereo cable and Audacity software. I listened to these until it was pointed out to me by the good folks at Computer Audiophile that it is a violation of copyright and immoral to keep copies of music I sold. So I deleted it all and began replacing my music with both high resolution downloads and physical formats such as SACD.

 

I no longer have Chris Isaak's Heart Shaped World album in any format, in my new collection I have Chris Isaak’s Live In Concert Blu-ray disc. I listen to the uncompressed 24-bit 48kHz LPCM stereo program. It has most of the songs I loved from Heart Shaped World.

 

That one recording I mentioned above that was treated with CD Stoplight was purchased very recently used at Recycled Records, it’s a Classic Records 24/96 DAD DVD and does sound great. It’s the Antill: Corroboree I told you about earlier.

 

After reading my article from 2009 and how good the Antill sounds I wonder if I should try CD Stoplight again? A lot has changed since then, in 2009 I could hear to 22kHz and now I can only hear to 12kHz. I now find CDs enjoyable to listen to, back then they were hard to listen to. Also I have a Yamaha Blu-ray/SACD player instead of the Yamaha DVD/SACD player. So I just don’t know. Plus there is this from my article:

 

“Warning, applying CD Stoplight can sometimes be a royal pain. Make sure the disc is clean and if it has a smooth edge the ink goes on quite well. But not all discs have smooth edges, both CDs and SACDs are basically sandwiches and sometimes the bottom edge does not line up exactly with the top edge and when they do line up correctly sometimes they have rough edges making them had to coat with ink, requiring multiple treatments. When you start treating one of these problem discs you will start cursing both me and AudioPrism, I know I did, that is until I played the disc, it was worth the trouble! Also make sure you have a couple of wet paper towels and a couple of CD cloths to clean up messes and boo-boos. You will have plenty of both! If ink goes where it does not belong it comes off easy with water, that is before it dries.”

 

Since I no longer know if I would appreciate the sonic benefits and don’t I want to go through all that work again, I think I may pass.

 

Still I find it interesting that one of the promised benefits (lower jitter) Prof. Johnson measured the opposite effect (higher jitter).

 

AudioPrism discovered that during playback, a significant quantity of stray laser light bounces around inside a CD player. This stray light eventually finds its way back to the pick-up assembly, creating jitter. CD Stoplight was developed to passively reduce the the effects of stray light that ultimately causes jitter. By absorbing the stray light at the transport passively, rather than attempting to reduce it's effects downstream electronically, jitter is reduced at the source-keeping it out of the playback chain.

 

Also it is important to note what I said at the end of the article: “Remember nothing is written in stone, and it's a woman's prerogative to change her mind. The most important thing is to enjoy the music in whatever form you listen to it in.”

 

FYI: This reply was difficult to write and took me two hours and 35 minutes, so please be kind.

I have dementia. I save all my posts in a text file I call Forums.  I do a search in that file to find out what I said or did in the past.

 

I still love music.

 

Teresa

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Why will Alex not be able to convince them otherwise? I thought post #10 and post #44 from the Hi Fi Critic Forum would convince everyone that Alex (Sandyk) has been telling the truth all along for these past four years. And that they have been unfairly persecuting him because the results go against their objectivist religion.

 

People stop it already, enough is enough!

 

Indeed, enough please Theresa. I do not think that anyone believes Alex is lying. He just got the wrong answer and is too bull headed to admit it.

 

Remember when we were kids - on math tests we were told to show our work? There was a reason for that, which was hard to understand then but makes perfect sense now. What Alex has done is like that, he has gotten an answer and if you look at his work, it is obvious he got a wrong answer.

 

That is, if you look at what work he will show.

 

He stubbornly refuses to show his work and there are obvious - glaring - errors in it. When duplicated elsewhere, it gives different results from what Alex claims. When the files are examined,'they are not identical, or they are on different media. Either condition can make them sound different. Even the files referenced in the article are not claimed to be identical (and in fact, were not).

 

Instead of looking back at his results and working with it, when anyone takes an interest and questions hom about the details, he resorts to conspiracy theories, hateful attacks, spiteful comments, and a "look at poor poor me being attacked by those people who don't know nothin'" attitude....

 

That is actually the same bad behavior we see from some of the cable vendors. P#%r cables for example, pulled out of a very public cable test because they did not have confidence that a very well known tester would be able to identify their cables reliably in a public A/B type test. While their cables might be fantastic, what they claim and what they charge are not open to question. i.e. - they won't "show their work." They may be perfectly valid, I do not know, but they sure do not act that way. And these were very expnsive cables indeed.

 

 

Any vendor who claims to have mastered some fringe science, but cannot or will not reveal their process and test results in a controlled environment, and therefor do not back up their claims, is also a suspect for promulgating snake oil in my book. Think quantum tunneling cables, electrocream, or paying $40 for a "high res" release of an album upsampled from Redbook... all hokum.

 

Unfortunate, but also true. YMMV - but I suspect not all that far.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Any vendor who claims to have mastered some fringe science, but cannot or will not reveal their process and test results in a controlled environment, and therefor do not back up their claims, is also a suspect for promulgating snake oil in my book. Think quantum tunneling cables, electrocream, or paying $40 for a "high res" release of an album upsampled from Redbook... all hokum.

 

Unfortunate, but also true. YMMV - but I suspect not all that far.

Thank you sir, a big +1 from me.

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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A very good question.

 

 

 

Since I no longer know if I would appreciate the sonic benefits and don’t I want to go through all that work again, I think I may pass.

 

Still I find it interesting that one of the promised benefits (lower jitter) Prof. Johnson measured the opposite effect (higher jitter).

AudioPrism discovered that during playback, a significant quantity of stray laser light bounces around inside a CD player. This stray light eventually finds its way back to the pick-up assembly, creating jitter. CD Stoplight was developed to passively reduce the the effects of stray light that ultimately causes jitter. By absorbing the stray light at the transport passively, rather than attempting to reduce it's effects downstream electronically, jitter is reduced at the source-keeping it out of the playback chain.

 

Also it is important to note what I said at the end of the article: “Remember nothing is written in stone, and it's a woman's prerogative to change her mind. The most important thing is to enjoy the music in whatever form you listen to it in.”

 

FYI: This reply was difficult to write and took me two hours and 35 minutes, so please be kind.

Teresa, I can see you blushing from here. LOL But do always trust your ears and never mind any true science.

Be well and best wishes.

Sal

"The gullibility of audiophiles is what astonishes me the most, even after all these years. How is it possible, how did it ever happen, that they trust fairy-tale purveyors and mystic gurus more than reliable sources of scientific information?"

Peter Aczel - The Audio Critic

nomqa.webp.aa713f2bb9e304522011cdb2d2ca907d.webp  R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press.

 

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What part of this statement don't you agree with ?

 

Either statement, in fact.

 

LRC in short interconnects is too small to be of any consequence in any application, and that includes passive "pre-amps" with their strange loads.

 

RF/EMI would manifest itself as interference noise and I would think that therefore it would be fairly easy to hear and recognize for what it is. Also RF/EMI would also affect cable performance in other applications than just audio and affect other signals than merely music. Attributing some subtle "difference" in the sound of interconnects to RF/EMI is, in my estimation, grasping at straws. Better keep looking for that vindication, Alex.

George

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I am a big time cable believer.

We are connecting our equipment together with cables so it really matters.

Of course, the better the equipment the more likely better cables will improve the sound.

Remember, "Only as good as the weakest link."

 

Many times cost is not the most important factor, it's how a cable meshes with the equipment and that takes some trial and error.

 

Here is my ranking of cable importance.

 

1. Power cords, with this includes outlets, and dedicated lines for Audio equipment

2. Analog cables, includes interconnects and speaker cables

3. Digital cables , includes AES and spdif and usb

 

 

Here's the question: Why would a couple of feet of coax make any difference? Those lengths of wire have inconsequential amounts of any electrical characteristics that could or would affect an audio signal in any discernible way. Answer that question, and we'll be getting somewhere!

George

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Snort- if I had "attacked" you Alex, what bits of hair you have left would have jumped off your skull and fled for safety.

 

I do wish you would shut up with your paranoia though. In this case, nobody is out to get you. Get away from you perhaps...

 

 

Yes, Paul, this is the conclusion that I have come to as well. Alex has become paranoid over this stuff. I'd hate to lose his contributions, but perhaps for his own mental and emotional well being, he should quit posting to CA for a while.

George

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Why will Alex not be able to convince them otherwise? I thought post #10 and post #44 from the Hi Fi Critic Forum would convince everyone that Alex (Sandyk) has been telling the truth all along for these past four years. And that they have been unfairly persecuting him because the results go against their objectivist religion.

 

People stop it already, enough is enough!

 

 

Alex will not be able to convince them otherwise because the people who are calling him a liar, have their own agendas that really have nothing to do with Alex personally, per se. They have already made up their minds. The rest of don't consider Alex a liar, they just disagree with his conclusions.

George

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Any vendor who claims to have mastered some fringe science, but cannot or will not reveal their process and test results in a controlled environment, and therefor do not back up their claims, is also a suspect for promulgating snake oil in my book. Think quantum tunneling cables, electrocream, or paying $40 for a "high res" release of an album upsampled from Redbook... all hokum.

 

Unfortunate, but also true. YMMV - but I suspect not all that far.

 

 

Thank you sir, a big +1 from me.

 

 

And a big ol' +1 from me as well!

George

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RF/EMI would manifest itself as interference noise and I would think that therefore it would be fairly easy to hear and recognize for what it is. Also RF/EMI would also affect cable performance in other applications than just audio and affect other signals than merely music. Attributing some subtle "difference" in the sound of interconnects to RF/EMI is, in my estimation, grasping at straws.

 

I want to gently (I know, something new in a cable thread!) and tentatively disagree. I don't think it's beyond normal everyday physics that a small variation in, e.g., a cable's resistance, in the context of an entire system, might change for example a path for low level ground noise; and that this low level ground noise might be experienced as less overall clarity than a cable with very slightly greater resistance that just happened to cause that ground noise to run along a different path.

 

I'd also be interested in whether, for example, some speaker cables might have sufficiently different electrical characteristics to cause system volume to be slightly louder than other speaker cables, and therefore might be experienced as sounding better.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Either statement, in fact.

 

LRC in short interconnects is too small to be of any consequence in any application, and that includes passive "pre-amps" with their strange loads.

 

RF/EMI would manifest itself as interference noise and I would think that therefore it would be fairly easy to hear and recognize for what it is. Also RF/EMI would also affect cable performance in other applications than just audio and affect other signals than merely music. Attributing some subtle "difference" in the sound of interconnects to RF/EMI is, in my estimation, grasping at straws. Better keep looking for that vindication, Alex.

 

Stick with your guns George.

If you are unable to hear the difference between a Blue Jeans 2M length standard cable and their low capacitance version of the same length, you are unfit to be an Audio Reviewer !

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Stick with your guns George.

If you are unable to hear the difference between a Blue Jeans 2M length standard cable and their low capacitance version of the same length, you are unfit to be an Audio Reviewer !

 

Or there is no audible difference between the two.

 

How do you know your interpretation is correct, and not the other interpretation? More importantly, by what criteria are you determining George's fitness as an audio reviewer?

 

It is kind of an extreme attack, based on what appears to be unsubstantiated opinion. How, by the way, does that differ from slander?

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Alex will not be able to convince them otherwise because the people who are calling him a liar, have their own agendas that really have nothing to do with Alex personally, per se. They have already made up their minds. The rest of don't consider Alex a liar, they just disagree with his conclusions.

 

George

The attached was posted by Barry D. shortly after listening to the 2 comparison CDs that I sent him.

I have a more detailed email report by Barry that I am unable to post.

 

Today, 09:03 PM #158

 

bdiament

 

bdiament is online now Senior Member bdiament's Avatar

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Join Date:Jun 2009Location:An obscure stone out in the Orion armPosts:1,801

 

Hi spdif-usb,

 

Quote Originally Posted by spdif-usb View Post

 

...I understand. However, bigger files take longer to download as well as pose an additional burden on those (myself included)

who are forced to live with a monthly capped internet volume. Since I could still uncompress the files after having downloaded them,

as well as because the process of uncompression would produce files that are bit for bit identical to the files you claim you prefer,

the thing that would then matter to me ultimately would be whether bit for bit identical files sound precisely identical to me (which, as a matter of fact, they do).

While I can not think of a mechanism by which identical files would sound different and can't think of a mechanism by which files with identical checksums (which up until a few weeks ago,

I would have taken to indicate identical data) would sound different, I don't know that this is necessarily the case.

That is, my being able to conceive of a mechanism by which things would sound different is not required for them to indeed sound different.

In any event, Soundkeeper is not offering downloads at this time anyway. Perhaps at some point in the future but not today.

For now, we offer our files-on-disc burned to DVD-R. (Besides, I haven't figured out a way to allow the autographed artwork to download. ;-})

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f7-disk-storage-music-library-storage/do-apple-lossless-files-really-sound-same-aiff-15557/index7.html#post220053

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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How, by the way, does that differ from slander?

I would not be surprised if by the U.S. "sue.sue" at the drop of a hat mentality, it could be seen as that, just as many comments you have previously made about my mental health etc. could also be seen as slander.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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I want to gently (I know, something new in a cable thread!) and tentatively disagree. I don't think it's beyond normal everyday physics that a small variation in, e.g., a cable's resistance, in the context of an entire system, might change for example a path for low level ground noise; and that this low level ground noise might be experienced as less overall clarity than a cable with very slightly greater resistance that just happened to cause that ground noise to run along a different path.

 

I'd also be interested in whether, for example, some speaker cables might have sufficiently different electrical characteristics to cause system volume to be slightly louder than other speaker cables, and therefore might be experienced as sounding better.

 

Generally with every speaker except maybe some Magnepan models any speaker cable resistance large enough to make itself audibly louder or quieter would cause a more noticeable difference in frequency response changes. It would be possible even with Maggies. For instance 12 awg 12 ft vs 24 awg 12 ft would cause a bit over a .25 ohm resistance difference. With an 8 ohm speaker that would create near a .2 db loudness change. With a 4 ohm speaker it would create roughly double that. Of course using 18 awg creates so little difference in pure loudness it is non-audible. 24 awg for serious speakers is simply incompetent.

 

As for changing ground paths, remember ground currents don't all jump on the lowest resistance path. The lowest path simply has the bulk of the current. Alter resistances a little and you alter the relative currents a little. Good grounding management should make it pretty much a non-issue.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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I want to gently (I know, something new in a cable thread!) and tentatively disagree. I don't think it's beyond normal everyday physics that a small variation in, e.g., a cable's resistance, in the context of an entire system, might change for example a path for low level ground noise; and that this low level ground noise might be experienced as less overall clarity than a cable with very slightly greater resistance that just happened to cause that ground noise to run along a different path.

 

It's a matter of degree. Cable resistance is measured in hundredths of an Ohm/ft. Belden RG-59U, for instance comes in at 0.053 Ohms per foot or 0.161 Ohms/meter. This is inconsequential in and of itself, but the delta between the resistance of this Belden brand cable and some other brand will be less than inconsequential, unless the cable manufacturer is deliberately making cable where the center conductor is drawn from some high resistance material to make the cable's resistance higher than normal for some reason.

 

I'd also be interested in whether, for example, some speaker cables might have sufficiently different electrical characteristics to cause system volume to be slightly louder than other speaker cables, and therefore might be experienced as sounding better.

 

Well, if the cable is just plain wire of sufficient gauge, I doubt it. But as you doubtless know, Jud, some speaker "cables" such as those made by Bruce Brisson's MIT (and others) have big aluminum boxes built into the cables and in some cases, the boxes actually have switches on them, so I wouldn't hazard myself to say that these "cables" don't, as you put it, "have sufficiently different electrical characteristics to cause system volume to be slightly louder (actually, some cables would cause system volume to be slightly lower than other cables, not louder. Louder would require further amplification and passive devices such as cables cannot amplify) than other speaker cables..." But if that is the case, it's because the manufacturer added those characteristics by utilizing components other than just wire and insulation.

George

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It's a matter of degree. Cable resistance is measured in hundredths of an Ohm/ft. Belden RG-59U, for instance comes in at 0.053 Ohms per foot or 0.161 Ohms/meter. This is inconsequential in and of itself, but the delta between the resistance of this Belden brand cable and some other brand will be less than inconsequential, unless the cable manufacturer is deliberately making cable where the center conductor is drawn from some high resistance material to make the cable's resistance higher than normal for some reason.

 

Also, unless memory fails me, the really nasty parts of any cable are the connectors, which often have non-matched impendences, and cause all sorts of nasty reflections down the cable.

 

It do not think it would be surprising if two identical cables with significantly different connectors sounded a bit different. Thoughts?

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Stick with your guns George.

If you are unable to hear the difference between a Blue Jeans 2M length standard cable and their low capacitance version of the same length, you are unfit to be an Audio Reviewer !

 

 

Like I said before, I've never heard Blue Jeans brand cable, so I can't say (and neither can you) whether I am able to hear a difference or not. Besides, you are being disingenuous again, Alex. I can and have heard differences in interconnect cables and have said so in this thread and others many times, and of course you know that because many times when I have made that statement in the past, I was responding to YOU. But the crux of the matter is not that I haven't heard, or can't hear differences in cable, but that I believe those differences to be psychoacoustic in nature and not real. IOW, this is a case where I don't believe my ears. I know that expectational and confirmation bias is very real, and on more than one occasion, when these so-called cable differences were tested in a non-sighted context, they completely disappeared. But again, this is nothing new either, and you know this as well.

 

A few posts ago, you were complaining that I say the same things over and over again in these debates. Looks like that's a "good thing" because you're selective memory seems to forget what I have previously said from one post to the next!

George

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