Tidal High Res (MQA) news...

[audio.bill]

I spoke with a Meridian rep at AXPONA about MQA, and he confirmed that MQA processing could be performed in a media player's software. He also said that they were in talks with some of those providers about adding it to their products. If they do so I would expect there to likely be an additional charge for that functionality if it is marketed as an optional add-on.

[barrows]

I spoke with a Meridian rep at AXPONA about MQA, and he confirmed that MQA processing could be performed in a media player's software. He also said that they were in talks with some of those providers about adding it to their products. If they do so I would expect there to likely be an additional charge for that functionality if it is marketed as an optional add-on.

 

I think a more detailed explanation is necessary here, as there are two aspects to MQA processing: the compression part, and the filtering part. Meridian has been clear that the filtering part has to be DAC specific to work properly, so that would mean a separate processing code for each DAC. Of course the doing the decompression part of MQA processing would be universal and easy to implement as one piece of code for a music player software, but the filtering aspect is another story.

[monteverdi]

But is not the filtering according to Meridian the essential advantage of MQA soundwise. I do not see why one needs just another compression scheme.

[MikeJazz]

I think a more detailed explanation is necessary here, as there are two aspects to MQA processing: the compression part, and the filtering part. Meridian has been clear that the filtering part has to be DAC specific to work properly, so that would mean a separate processing code for each DAC. Of course the doing the decompression part of MQA processing would be universal and easy to implement as one piece of code for a music player software, but the filtering aspect is another story.

 

The filtering is only needed because there is compression. And compression is only needed because is still complicated, in certain circunstances, to streem uncompressed hd audio. In due time, I think it will be less of an issue and then, less technical justification for the MQA compression part.

[barrows]

The filtering is only needed because there is compression. And compression is only needed because is still complicated, in certain circunstances, to streem uncompressed hd audio. In due time, I think it will be less of an issue and then, less technical justification for the MQA compression part.

 

The only justification for better sound quality from MQA versus an un-encoded file of the same original sample rate is the special filtering done. This is how Merdian is able to claim better SQ. They say they are designing filters specifically to match with the DS modulator structure of a given MQA enabled DAC, in order to achieve better time domain performance than is possible with the original filters. I think you might want to look a little deeper into the MQA technical explanations.

[Doak]

Auralic Facebook post @ 10am CST today:

"Version 3.0 of Lightning Streaming Platform Firmware is coming, Adding MQA and RoonReady. Please visit AURALiC in Venetian Suite 29-122 during the 2016 CES, January 6 – 9.

AURALIC North America Inc. and its parent company, AURALIC LIMITED, are pleased to be the first developer of a complete line of high-resolution audio streamers to offer fully implemented capability for two of the industry’s significant new technologies: MQA decoding and the RoonReady integration.

Both these eagerly-awaited technologies will be demonstrated at the 2016 CES, and will be available soon afterwards via online firmware update. MQA decoding will be available for all three AURALiC’s lightning streaming devices: ARIES, ARIES LE and ARIES MINI. The RoonReady capability will initially be available for the ARIES and ARIES LE.

As TIDAL streaming is already integrated into the Lightning DS software platform, all three of AURALiC’s streaming models will be ready to handle TIDAL’s anticipated launch of MQA-encoded music.

During the CES, AURALiC will stream TIDAL and MQA exclusively, and will also be demonstrating the RoonReady capability.

Xuanqian Wang, AURALiC’s president & CEO, pointed out that “with ARIES and ARIES LE fully decoding MQA music, they bring the MQA technology to any existing DAC on the market. (The ARIES MINI has its own built-in DAC.)"

[audio.bill]

barrows - Please read the above product announcement regarding streamers from Auralic, and in particular the statement that their new streamers which support MQA decoding will "bring the MQA technology to any existing DAC on the market". Does this convince you that there is no further DAC specific decoding/filtering required to gain the potential benefits of MQA decoding? I'd be interested to know whether you still have concerns about this working. TIA

[barrows]

barrows - Please read the above product announcement regarding streamers from Auralic, and in particular the statement that their new streamers which support MQA decoding will "bring the MQA technology to any existing DAC on the market". Does this convince you that there is no further DAC specific decoding/filtering required to gain the potential benefits of MQA decoding? I'd be interested to know whether you still have concerns about this working. TIA

 

No, not at all. Meridian has stated that the filtering in the DAC needs to be tuned to suit the DS modulator structure if that DAC, this cannot be done in player software unless the player is oversampling to at least 352.8/384 and the player software has a different code for each DAC; sounds pretty unlikely to me. Again: There are aspects to MQA, the compression aspect, which will make no sonic improvement over the original hi res file, and the filtering aspect, which could make a sonic improvement (or at least a change). As I understand it, only the compression aspect could be reasonably incorporated into the playback software, as it needs to be DAC specific.

Just because there is a product announcement does not make it true, I do believe that it will possible for player software to decompress the MQA encoded file, but not that it will be able to apply a DAC specific OSF as required to achieve improved sound quality from MQA encoded files. Now, perhaps, there will be some sort of "universal" compromise code which provides some of the benefits of MQA, but Meridian has specifically stated that the code needs to be specific to each DAC to achieve what MQA is really capable of (the better time domain performance).

[jhwalker]

No, not at all. Meridian has stated that the filtering in the DAC needs to be tuned to suit the DS modulator structure if that DAC, this cannot be done in player software unless the player is oversampling to at least 352.8/384 and the player software has a different code for each DAC; sounds pretty unlikely to me. Again: There are aspects to MQA, the compression aspect, which will make no sonic improvement over the original hi res file, and the filtering aspect, which could make a sonic improvement (or at least a change). As I understand it, only the compression aspect could be reasonably incorporated into the playback software, as it needs to be DAC specific.

Just because there is a product announcement does not make it true, I do believe that it will possible for player software to decompress the MQA encoded file, but not that it will be able to apply a DAC specific OSF as required to achieve improved sound quality from MQA encoded files. Now, perhaps, there will be some sort of "universal" compromise code which provides some of the benefits of MQA, but Meridian has specifically stated that the code needs to be specific to each DAC to achieve what MQA is really capable of (the better time domain performance).

 

I'm hoping either Meridian or some of the software players provide at least some of the more common DAC profiles for download (like some software players have headphone profiles, etc.).

[crenca]

...Again: There are aspects to MQA, the compression aspect, which will make no sonic improvement over the original hi res file, and the filtering aspect, which could make a sonic improvement (or at least a change). As I understand it, only the compression aspect could be reasonably incorporated into the playback software, as it needs to be DAC specific.

 

This is what I understand also. Also, note that the announcement reads "bring the MQA technology to any existing DAC on the market". Since MQA is actually more than one "thing", manufactures can say such things without bringing the entire MQA bundle to the consumer. Clearly, the "compression" part is what is now being emphasized...

[bmoura]

No, not at all. Meridian has stated that the filtering in the DAC needs to be tuned.

 

Right. MQA decoding needs to be present in both the player software and the DAC to get the full benefits of the encoding according to Meridian.

 

As they explained it at the demo I attended, you can get some of the benefit if the player software maker licenses the software portion from Meridian. But full benefit also requires a MQA licensed and equipped DAC.

 

It will be interesting to hear MQA in it's partially decoded and undecoded form - as well as when both of the two part MQA decoding is present.

[R1200CL]

See my post below. As best as I can follow so far, the compression aspect could be available on a player software level, theoretically, but any improved sound quality would require a a MQA enabled DAC, as this involves the oversampling process at the DAC level.

 

I think you are totally wrong.

 

Here is a statment from Pål Bråterud at Tidal:

"At beginning, we will just transport MQA files (in FLAC wrapper) to external hardware that's supporting MQA decoding. But we will certainly also soft decode in the future also on desktop so you can enjoy MQA quality with any DAC. In mobile applications we will of course soft decode from launch. To begin with it will be a rather limited offering of higher than redbook content, but eventually we will also run all our redbook content through as you then will lose the brickwalling artefacts and also get better and more accurate coding of the PCM itself.

For us it is more important that we do this right rather than have a vast catalogue of questionable character. Quality over quantity. As we go along we will fill up the tanks quicker and quicker."

 

The quote can be found here:

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/tidal-to-launch-mqa-hi-res-audio-streaming-in-2016/5408/76

 

So please stop misleading people. You may also learn something by reading the whole post.

[blaven]

Aurender also announced MQA-enabled products at CES. No idea how that will work. Very curious to see if any hardware upgrade will be needed on DAC end to have a fully functional Death Star.

[mansr]

Here is a statment from Pål Bråterud at Tidal:

"To begin with it will be a rather limited offering of higher than redbook content, but eventually we will also run all our redbook content through as you then will lose the brickwalling artefacts and also get better and more accurate coding of the PCM itself."

 

Thanks for finding that quote. The part about putting plain redbook content through MQA makes no sense though. If upsampling it improves playback quality, that can be done just as well at the client side. Better, in fact, since then it won't need the lossy MQA compression.

[firedog]

Thanks for finding that quote. The part about putting plain redbook content through MQA makes no sense though. If upsampling it improves playback quality, that can be done just as well at the client side. Better, in fact, since then it won't need the lossy MQA compression.

 

Might it make sense for streaming 16/44 to mobile devices?. Not much client side upsampling there.

[crenca]

Thanks for finding that quote. The part about putting plain redbook content through MQA makes no sense though. If upsampling it improves playback quality, that can be done just as well at the client side. Better, in fact, since then it won't need the lossy MQA compression.

 

Just to be clear, the part of MQA under discussion here is not an "upsampling" per se - it is an encoding process that uses a propriety algorithm to account for hardware specific errors of the original encoding hardware (ADC) and then corrects it as long as you have MQA decoding hardware on your side. Soooo, it (in theory and according to those who have heard it and buy into it) could improve the sound of a 16/44 file streamed over Tidal, etc. if you have MQA decoding in your playback chain.

[mansr]

Might it make sense for streaming 16/44 to mobile devices?. Not much client side upsampling there.

 

Upsampling is almost certainly less computationally intensive than MQA decoding.

[firedog]

Upsampling is almost certainly less computationally intensive than MQA decoding.

 

Yes, I get that. But how many people are upsampling on their smartphones - even audiophiles?

[barrows]

Just to be clear, the part of MQA under discussion here is not an "upsampling" per se - it is an encoding process that uses a propriety algorithm to account for hardware specific errors of the original encoding hardware (ADC) and then corrects it as long as you have MQA decoding hardware on your side. Soooo, it (in theory and according to those who have heard it and buy into it) could improve the sound of a 16/44 file streamed over Tidal, etc. if you have MQA decoding in your playback chain.

 

That is not how Meridian describes it.

[crenca]

That is not how Meridian describes it.

 

Not sure how to respond, except to say that IS how Meridian describes (though my explanation is no doubt not the best). MQA is actually a multi-faceted beast, and describing it as an "up-sampling" process is simply incorrect.

[barrows]

Not sure how to respond, except to say that IS how Meridian describes (though my explanation is no doubt not the best). MQA is actually a multi-faceted beast, and describing it as an "up-sampling" process is simply incorrect.

 

Perhaps you missed my previous posts? There are 2 aspects to MQA, one is the compression aspect which places a high res file into a smaller package by folding the high frequency information into the (supposedly unused) lower bits, this first aspect would not give any improvement in sonic performance, it is just a new way to compress a high res file. The second part of MQA is what is not entirely clear, but Meridian describes it as process which takes into account how an individual ADC and an individual DAC (therefore being DAC specific) damage the sound quality in the time domain and corrects for those damages.

It is clear to me that various software companies could implement the first aspect (decompressing the file) in their player software, but not the second, as the code used would need to be DAC specific.

Certainly a player software could say they are compatible with MQA encoded files, indeed if they decompress the file the are compatible, but this will not incorporate any of the so called sound improvements in the time domain which would require the DAC specific coding.

 

It does not help the matter that Meridian themselves are trying to market this to everyone, and have seriously dumbed down their "technical" explanations into marketing speak which technically does not make any sense. The best place to find accurate technical descriptions of how MQA works is in the articles by John Atkinson at Stereophile, and I encourage anyone who wants to understand MQA to read up on those.

[crenca]

Perhaps you missed my previous posts? There are 2 aspects to MQA, one is the compression aspect which places a high res file into a smaller package by folding the high frequency information into the (supposedly unused) lower bits, this first aspect would not give any improvement in sonic performance, it is just a new way to compress a high res file. The second part of MQA is what is not entirely clear, but Meridian describes it as process which takes into account how an individual ADC and an individual DAC (therefore being DAC specific) damage the sound quality in the time domain and corrects for those damages.

It is clear to me that various software companies could implement the first aspect (decompressing the file) in their player software, but not the second, as the code used would need to be DAC specific.

Certainly a player software could say they are compatible with MQA encoded files, indeed if they decompress the file the are compatible, but this will not incorporate any of the so called sound improvements in the time domain which would require the DAC specific coding.

 

It does not help the matter that Meridian themselves are trying to market this to everyone, and have seriously dumbed down their "technical" explanations into marketing speak which technically does not make any sense. The best place to find accurate technical descriptions of how MQA works is in the articles by John Atkinson at Stereophile, and I encourage anyone who wants to understand MQA to read up on those.

 

I read your earlier posts and I believe you are doing a good job describing it (though I think most technical descriptions break MQA into a 3 part beast). I was responding to the description of MQA being an "upsampling" technique or something similiar.

 

By the way, when you say that:

 

"one is the compression aspect which places a high res file into a smaller package by folding the high frequency information into the (supposedly unused) lower bits, this first aspect would not give any improvement in sonic performance, it is just a new way to compress a high res file."

 

This is being used in the marketing speak of the various manufactures/promoters and their lackey's in the audiophile press as "an improvement in sonic performance" simply because it allows high res to be delivered in spaces it has not before (such as Tidal) and as everyone knows, "high res" is in-of-itself an improvement in "sonic performance". True, the point is debatable depending on many things, but all else being equal most would say that "high-res" is a "sonic improvement" - certainly if they are trying to sell you something.

 

I am obviously with you on the "dumb down" aspects. I have manyquestions, like will there be any "digital artifacts" or other sonic effects when I play a Tidal MQA stream through my non MQA DAC? As many who are more evenhanded about this have pointed out, this has as of yet to be demonstrated as all the "listening demo's" have so far been with MQA enabled playback chain. Then there are the true believers in the audiophile press (such as Audio Stream's Michael Lavorgna) who will quite literally insult you if you even dare ask relevant questions, because the creators of MQA are "geniuses" and the unwashed masses should simply trust them. It is all getting quite ridiculous and I suspect that Meridian are setting themselves up for a fall...

[jeffmudrick]

Perhaps you missed my previous posts? There are 2 aspects to MQA, one is the compression aspect which places a high res file into a smaller package by folding the high frequency information into the (supposedly unused) lower bits, this first aspect would not give any improvement in sonic performance, it is just a new way to compress a high res file. The second part of MQA is what is not entirely clear, but Meridian describes it as process which takes into account how an individual ADC and an individual DAC (therefore being DAC specific) damage the sound quality in the time domain and corrects for those damages.

It is clear to me that various software companies could implement the first aspect (decompressing the file) in their player software, but not the second, as the code used would need to be DAC specific.

Certainly a player software could say they are compatible with MQA encoded files, indeed if they decompress the file the are compatible, but this will not incorporate any of the so called sound improvements in the time domain which would require the DAC specific coding.

 

 

The way I read Meridian is that software or server implementation would bring benefit of the time correction from the AD encoding even if not fully optimized for the receiving DAC.

[Doak]

The way I read Meridian is that software or server implementation would bring benefit of the time correction from the AD encoding even if not fully optimized for the receiving DAC.

 

Yes, this is the way I read it also.

[crenca]

Yes, this is the way I read it also.

 

That is a claim, though it is a bit obscure as to exactly how this is:

 

Meridian

 

quote:

 

"...If you don’t have a decoder, you can play it back without a decoder because it is PCM. MQA turns PCM into PCM. When you play it back, it’ll play back on a legacy system sounding better than a CD. And it sounds better than CD because the noise floor is properly managed and the signal has been pre-apodized...."

 

Is he saying our digital filter is better than yours, or that the MQA encoding (at the studio) is a superior form of PCM encoding, or is it a little of both??