Optical Network Configurations

[muski]

15 hours ago, dbastin said:

Given there has been discussion here about SFP+, you may be interested to hear Taiko's new switch can be SFP+.

https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/product/taiko-audio-extreme-switch/

Interesting! Strange that it’s just one port in and one port out. The Innuos Phoenix Net is three out, though only RJ45. But it allows me to have my server and two streamers all on one switch. It’d be cool if Innuos added optical!

[audiophilac]

On 2/22/2023 at 1:38 PM, muski said:

Interesting! Strange that it’s just one port in and one port out. The Innuos Phoenix Net is three out, though only RJ45. But it allows me to have my server and two streamers all on one switch. It’d be cool if Innuos added optical!

Two optical ports or more please!

[barrows]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:38 PM, muski said:

Interesting! Strange that it’s just one port in and one port out. The Innuos Phoenix Net is three out, though only RJ45. But it allows me to have my server and two streamers all on one switch. It’d be cool if Innuos added optical!

OMG, really...  >$5000.00 for a switch with only two ports, and supplied with a cheapo SMPS...  No discussion from Taiko what might even make it good, just that the case is super expensive (machined from a block of copper and chromed).  Does it have a good clock, for example... no mention of such.  Low noise internal circuitry, no mention of such...  All they mention is the case???

[pl_svn]

plus... pics are low quality/out of focus 😂

[Iving]

44 minutes ago, barrows said:

OMG, really...  >$5000.00 for a switch with only two ports, and supplied with a cheapo SMPS...  No discussion from Taiko what might even make it good, just that the case is super expensive (machined from a block of copper and chromed).  Does it have a good clock, for example... no mention of such.  Low noise internal circuitry, no mention of such...  All they mention is the case???

 

The last few pages of the Taiko-hinged QSA thread on WBF is disturbing in a very similar way. Almost tempted to report to honcho Amir.

[Jud]

53 minutes ago, barrows said:

OMG, really...  >$5000.00 for a switch with only two ports, and supplied with a cheapo SMPS...  No discussion from Taiko what might even make it good, just that the case is super expensive (machined from a block of copper and chromed).  Does it have a good clock, for example... no mention of such.  Low noise internal circuitry, no mention of such...  All they mention is the case???

 

I remember an Innuos piece at the last RMAF being the subject of rave reviews. I gave it a good listen and didn't see/hear what the fuss was about.

[barrows]

Some directions in the high end seem a bit disturbing to me...  But it really is OK...  after all, one can purchase watches for 6 figures which do not tell time any better than a simple Swatch...  The problems come when some audiophiles actually think that spending 6 figures for an amplifier, or a DAC, is necessary to achieve the best possible sound.  Unfortunately, in high end audio, it appears few are willing to point out the difference between pure bling, and products which actually are capable of producing the best possible sound via their actual technical performance.  Forums such as WBF (more accurately titled would be What's Most Expensive...) create the false impression to some newcomers to the high end, that really great sound quality requires one to be very wealthy... ultimately this approach is hurting the industry, as manufacturers are being pushed to pursue ever more blingy designs, which in many cases do not offer increased performance over less costly, but equally (or better) engineered designs, and potential new audiophiles are alienated if they are not wealthy.  The ASR forum, in my estimation, goes too far in the opposite direction (but perhaps this extreme push helps to balance the picture) by suggesting that every aspect of audio performance can be described by only a couple of simple measurements (which is equally in error, audio performance is much more complicated than ASR makes it seem).

The difference with the watch analogy above and high end audio, is that the high end watch aficionado understands the actual performance of the 6 figure watch is no better that that of the $20 watch, in high end audio, many are led to believe that extremely expensive gear actually performs better than more moderately priced options, which in most cases, is total BS.

[Iving]

12 minutes ago, barrows said:

The difference with the watch analogy above and high end audio, is that the high end watch aficionado understands the actual performance of the 6 figure watch is no better that that of the $20 watch, in high end audio, many are led to believe that extremely expensive gear actually performs better than more moderately priced options, which in most cases, is total BS.

 

There is significant delusion on that WBF QSA thread. Actually two threads. Quantum alert. I don't like feeding ASR. Anyway - as you say - it's all OK.

[muski]

42 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I remember an Innuos piece at the last RMAF being the subject of rave reviews. I gave it a good listen and didn't see/hear what the fuss was about.

 

 

I found the PhoenixNet really cleaned things up and made an audible impact. But I also think I have a terribly noisy router, so I can see how YRMV. (The PhoenixNet has four ports and embeds a Sean Jacobs PS).

[robi20064]

1 hour ago, barrows said:

OMG, really...  >$5000.00 for a switch with only two ports, and supplied with a cheapo SMPS...  No discussion from Taiko what might even make it good, just that the case is super expensive (machined from a block of copper and chromed).  Does it have a good clock, for example... no mention of such.  Low noise internal circuitry, no mention of such...  All they mention is the case???

Not exactly true. They shared some on their concept. It won't make it any penny cheaper tho.

 

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2023/01/new-taiko-audio-extreme-switch-and.html?m=1

[barrows]

8 minutes ago, robi20064 said:

Not exactly true. They shared some on their concept. It won't make it any penny cheaper tho.

 

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2023/01/new-taiko-audio-extreme-switch-and.html?m=1

I do not see any mention of the technicalities of their switch in the linked advert...  no mention of the design implementations which make their switch "good", just discussions of various ways to connect things and the case.  To be entirely clear, my referral was to the information on their website linked above.

[robi20064]

13 minutes ago, barrows said:

I do not see any mention of the technicalities of their switch in the linked advert...  no mention of the design implementations which make their switch "good", just discussions of various ways to connect things and the case.  To be entirely clear, my referral was to the information on their website linked above.

The lack of more / other detail might be intentional. I would be also more interested in what was exactly optimized in the software side by the TACDD interface, but I'm afraid not a whole lot will be openly discussed (and I can partly understand the business reasons).

[MarkusBarkus]

...it's a switch, technically, but not designed to support multiple devices in the network. It is meant to integrate directly with the Extreme.
 

Some of the functionality inside the Extreme will be off-loaded to the switch. The statement is this, and other electronic design elements, will further reduce noise when used with the new network card. It was ~7K for switch and card, with DAC cable and SFPs (copper-coax, not optical). 

 

The real excitement is with the pending battery solution. Here is some info, if interested:

https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/product/extreme-switch-network-card-bundle/

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-739

 

 

 

[Superdad]

Well since the subject of expensive Ethernet switches in fancy cases has come up, a new brand just popped up which is yet another based on the ZyXel GS-108B v3 switch board--which anyone can purchase for $20 on Amazon.

https://www.reikiaudio.com/shop/p/reiki-audio-superswitch-master

Same board as used in the English Electric, NuPrime, and ThunderData/Silent Angel Bonn N8. Only in Reiki Audio's case they do not even bother to change the 20-cent crystal or do anything at all besides putting the board in a milled enclosure (blocking 6 of the 8 ports), putting some unknown EMI above and below, and then changing more than $1,100.  Will this ever end? 

Here is the exact ZyXel board:

And the photo from the Reiki web page:

 

Of course by now everyone here has already seen our (currently our of production due to chip shortages) EtherREGEN board.  Not counting the PCB assembly cost or our $35 case--you are looking at over $200 in parts. The voltage regulators alone add up to more than $65. And the pair of ultra-low-jitter 10GHz-capable flip-flops are $27.

Just sayin'. 

[barrows]

Exactly Alex.  The EtherREGEN is packed full of high end engineering choices, and the best parts for the job, designed with very little compromise.  And the selling price was very reasonable for what one was getting.  I am looking forward to the new version with Gb throughput!

It does look like Nordost has actually designed their own switch, at least from the form factor... 

[robi20064]

45 minutes ago, barrows said:

Exactly Alex.  The EtherREGEN is packed full of high end engineering choices, and the best parts for the job, designed with very little compromise.  And the selling price was very reasonable for what one was getting.  I am looking forward to the new version with Gb throughput!

It does look like Nordost has actually designed their own switch, at least from the form factor... 

Or just paid $20 more for a random Chinese manufacturer to redesign an existing gigabit one into a round shape PCB.

[barrows]

2 hours ago, robi20064 said:

Or just paid $20 more for a random Chinese manufacturer to redesign an existing gigabit one into a round shape PCB.

Made in USA, so... no.  It is also doubtful that Nordost would be able to meet the MOQ needs of an existing switch manufacturer.

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, barrows said:

It does look like Nordost has actually designed their own switch, at least from the form factor... 

 

Sure, but have they explained anything technically unique about the piece? I find it interesting that although their excellent marketing has garnered dozens of reviews of that $3,200 switch (paired with their $2,750 power supply, $300 QSource feet, and $340 DC cable), not one review in the entire year since introduction has opened the unit up and posted a photo of the board.  Forgive my overstepping, but I truly believe that at those prices companies ought to "show their work" and explain any technical uniquenesses.

[barrows]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Sure, but have they explained anything technically unique about the piece? I find it interesting that although their excellent marketing has garnered dozens of reviews of that $3,200 switch (paired with their $2,750 power supply, $300 QSource feet, and $340 DC cable), not one review in the entire year since introduction has opened the unit up and posted a photo of the board.  Forgive my overstepping, but I truly believe that at those prices companies ought to "show their work" and explain any technical uniquenesses.

I cannot speak for Nordost, but they do discuss some details at their web site, but they are (likely purposefully) a bit vague.  My point was just to suggest that at least they did do (or hire someone to do) a "ground up" board design.  In any case their pricing is consistent with their sales model and required dealer margins in the "accessories" market (I also expect that those who purchase in person, from a brick and mortar dealer will be able to negotiate a "deal", which is common for this sales model).  Also, their sales model allows at home demos, so a potential customer can audition the product with no risk.

Clearly, Nordost's sales model is quite different from that of UpTone, or Sonore for that matter, which is fine with me, different strokes...  I understand their approach, while, being somewhat technically oriented myself, I would prefer to know more details, I understand why a company might choose to not share those (few consumers can be trusted to actually comprehend and understand what all the details mean as a way to discern between products).  When the potential customer can take the unit home for a demo, knowing technical details which they may not have any understanding of is fairly irrelevant-even if I personally, would like to know more.

[R1200CL]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

"show their work"

+++++++ 😀

[jabbr]

On 2/21/2023 at 9:02 AM, dbastin said:

Given there has been discussion here about SFP+, you may be interested to hear Taiko's new switch can be SFP+.

https://taikoaudio.com/taiko-2020/product/taiko-audio-extreme-switch/

 

They also have a PCIe network adapter/switch, and a router in the works.

 

Both are probably only called a 'switch' because (I presume)  they are fundamentally a switch (even if only 1 port in and 1 port out).

 

I have been wondering when someone was gonna 'hot rod' SFP+ with audiophile performance parts.  But I was hoping for a much lower price tag.

 

Given this comment ...

... I am curious how EtherRegen would measure against SFP+ specs (is it stressed eye etc? ... I am not expecting a firm answer, just curious).

 

I also note people are preferring SFP+ modules when used with EtherRegen (eg. Afterdark).

 

So back to topic, I suppose EtherRegen might have even lower jitter, noise, etc than SFP+ so using SFP+ modules are complimentry icing even if the output of Side B is 100MB.

 

Hence, using EtherRegen as a FMC with fibre > SFP+ module > ER - moat - Side B (or vise versa) I presume has compounding benefits  (??).

 

To be clear, there is a difference between an SFP(+) module and 10GBase-X (10 GbE). Many 1 GbE devices accept SFP(+) modules and run them at 1 GbE. In the very beginning of this thread I discussed using SFP(+) modules with 1 GbE equipment.

 

The "stressed eye pattern" isn't part of the SFP(+) specification, rather the 10GBase-X specification (802.3ae) see: IEEE 802.3 - Wikipedia

 

[di-fi]

On 2/27/2023 at 2:01 PM, barrows said:

The EtherREGEN is packed full of high end engineering choices, and the best parts for the job, designed with very little compromise.  And the selling price was very reasonable for what one was getting.

 

On 2/27/2023 at 10:38 AM, barrows said:

a cheapo SMPS...  No discussion from Taiko what might even make it good

Probably you missed this info about the Taiko Switch. And I think Taiko can say the same; “The switch is packed full of high end engineering choices, and the best parts for the job, designed with very little compromise”. 

Reading about it can be very informative, don’t get discouraged by the price (“whether the selling price is reasonable or not for what one is getting”) . Attached an 18 page PDF with information found on WBF in thread 'Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème'.

 

Reviews start coming in this week and one can only expect it to be better with a good LPS as you observed.

 

(…) I think that this is only the second time that a server manufacturer has actually built a hi-fi switch from scratch.

 

The finding that the output from one Taiko switch into an Extreme is better than the output of two 3rd party switches into an Extreme is exactly the sign of a successful design and implementation. It should be so.

 

the clamshell-like casing of the new Taiko offers quite some benefits in terms of both EMI ingress and resonance control. (…)

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/post-859834

Screenshot 2023-03-09 at 13.26.06.pdf

[barrows]

11 minutes ago, di-fi said:

 

Probably you missed this info about the Taiko Switch. “The switch is packed full of high end engineering choices, and the best parts for the job, designed with very little compromise”. 
Reading about it can be very informative whether the selling price is reasonable or not for what one is getting. Attached an 18 page PDF with information found on WBF in thread 'Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème'.

Screenshot 2023-03-09 at 13.26.06.pdf 2.13 MB · 2 downloads

That is hilarious!  It is funny that you shared this document purporting that it goes into some technical detail, as it does not.  I am sad that I wasted my time reading it.  There is absolutely not a single piece of technical information here on the actual design of the switch, again, other than details regarding the case (which does appear to be quite lovely).  Is the clocking mentioned, no, are the local power supply design details mentioned, no, is there any mention at all of the technical details of the switch design which allow it to sound "magical" when paired with the NIC and "Extreme" server, no again.

It is not surprising that these products are promoted on the WBF site...  Nuff said on this, I am out of this discussion. I do look forward to UpTone's forthcoming etherRegen 2 though...

[di-fi]

13 minutes ago, barrows said:

I am sad that I wasted my time

Sorry for that @barrows. I was not aware that manufacturers have to share exactly what is in their boxes to merit your attention. And that’s ok. It just limits your choices in an other way. I understand it is not for you, but I took away many interesting cues for my basic system from the Taiko thread @ WBF.
 

[barrows]

1 hour ago, di-fi said:

It just limits your choices in an other way

Yes, it limits my choices to components which actually have solid engineering resulting in better performance.  The Taiko switch might be good, or it might suck, certainly there is nothing in the many pages you posted here which helps in any way to determine which it is.  When a manufacturer spends the most time talking about their case, and nothing else, it is a red flag for me.

As someone working in the industry, it is just this approach to marketing which makes "civilians" (non-audiophiles) look at our industry with disdain, claims of "magical" properties which make things sound better, etc.  Taiko actually used the word "magical" in the posted info!  I find this unhelpful, but I do understand there is a market of well heeled, but often otherwise clueless audiophiles who tend to eat this stuff up.

While I do not expect manufacturers to reveal proprietary tech, some explanations can be stated without revealing any trade secrets.  For example, one could say: "very careful attention is paid to power supply domains, ground plane implementations, and regulator selection in order to limit noise and noise propagation on the PCB", or one could say: "a carefully selected ultra low phase noise clock is used, with a dedicated ultra low noise power supply", these kind of statements reveal no secrets, but do at least give one an understanding of what design elements might be present which could account for improved performance over a regular commercial switch.  There can be a balance of information.

 

In addition, the recommendation of using a copper Ethernet adapter in an SFP+ cage is flawed, these adapters perform much more poorly than a normal RJ-45 interface and quality Ethernet cable.