A toast to PGGB, a heady brew of math and magic

[muski]

Hi —

 

Really enjoying this, but lots of questions!

 

First, I'm getting static in the right channel when I play back 768kHz content from Roon via HQP. Doesn't happen with 705.6kHz content. Any ideas?  (HQP settings screenshot attached)_

 

Second, is the only way to launch it on the Mac is from the Terminal? Like this:

/Applications/remastero/PGGB/application/run_PGGB.sh /Applications/MATLAB/MATLAB_Runtime/v99/

 

 

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, muski said:

Hi —

 

Really enjoying this, but lots of questions!

 

First, I'm getting static in the right channel when I play back 768kHz content from Roon via HQP. Doesn't happen with 705.6kHz content. Any ideas?  (HQP settings screenshot attached)_

 

Second, is the only way to launch it on the Mac is from the Terminal? Like this:

/Applications/remastero/PGGB/application/run_PGGB.sh /Applications/MATLAB/MATLAB_Runtime/v99/

 

 

 

I suspect the culprit is "auto rate family." I don't use the Embedded version, but the equivalent on the Desktop version is "adaptive output rate."

 

Doesn't it need to be checked? @Zaphod Beeblebrox 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

22 minutes ago, muski said:

First, I'm getting static in the right channel when I play back 768kHz content from Roon via HQP. Doesn't happen with 705.6kHz content. Any ideas?  (HQP settings screenshot attached)_

 

 

Check - 'Auto rate family',

Set 'Sample rate ' under PCM Settings to 'auto'

Leave Rate limit as is.

 

Are you having this issue with 768kHz all the time?  Are you able to play the 768kHz file directly using HQP without Roon? (you can click on the library link on HQPe web interface, browse to your library location), then play it from HQPe to test.

28 minutes ago, muski said:

Second, is the only way to launch it on the Mac is from the Terminal? Like this:

/Applications/remastero/PGGB/application/run_PGGB.sh /Applications/MATLAB/MATLAB_Runtime/v99/

 

Are you not seeing remastero (other) in your application launcher? Or it should appear if you just type the name PGGB

 

 

Alternately you can also launch by double clicking PGGB in the application folder, in both cases the first launch can take a bit of time.

 

[davide256]

I just have to ask; what is PGGB doing that makes SACD rock music sound authentic instead of British polite?

 

As a Pink Floyd fan I couldn't wait to get the SACD of "Wish You Were Here"... but it was a snooze either played on my Oppo 103 or ripped and played streaming, 

just didn't do justice to the vinyl version. Now with PGGB FLAC conversion the SACD rip has the detail, power of the original. Gonna have to budget for this,

even if its just for converting my SACD rips.

 

Also listening to this PGGB converted to FLAC at the moment, its terrific even if only HDCD for source. My amp is getting a workout.

 

 

 

 

[ted_b]

Davide256, all dacs have sweet spots, and yours (Metrum Octave if your link is still up to date) clearlyhas a PCM sweet spot, if we are to beleive your reactions..  This is nothing against PGGB; in fact, it is saying that PGGB does a better job of converting DSD to PCM than whatever dac (Oppo or Metrum) you'd been using.  My $.02

[davide256]

14 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Davide256, all dacs have sweet spots, and yours (Metrum Octave if your link is still up to date) clearlyhas a PCM sweet spot, if we are to beleive your reactions..  This is nothing against PGGB; in fact, it is saying that PGGB does a better job of converting DSD to PCM than whatever dac (Oppo or Metrum) you'd been using.  My $.02

353/384/24 to the IRIS DDC which down converts to 192/176/24  to Chord Mojo. There's very clearly some dynamic range expansion going on as well as low bass drum

solidity thats not there in unprocessed PCM or DSD rips. If I shared a wall with neighbors, they would be knocking on my door to complain right now 😁

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

28 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I just have to ask; what is PGGB doing that makes SACD rock music sound authentic instead of British polite?

Assuming it is not rhetorical question.

 

Agree with what @ted_b says above. Some DACs work really well with PCM and many of these DACs convert DSD to PCM and they do so with very limited processing power. 

 

With PGGB (and other software sample rate converters) you are able to make full use of the processing power of a PC and in addition to that your DAC is having to work less hard.  Something to consider here is, the input is a constant, i.e., DSD ripped from SACD. So both your DAC and software resamplers work with the same information. Then it comes  down to the quality of conversion done by the software resampling.

 

The way DSD conversion works, the instantaneous information in the original signal gets distributed over a very very long window. PGGB reverses this process by using very very long windowed sinc function to put the information back in a very localized fashion.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

3 minutes ago, davide256 said:

353/384/24 to the IRIS DDC which down converts to 192/176/24  to Chord Mojo. There's very clearly some dynamic range expansion going on as well as low bass drum

solidity thats not there in unprocessed PCM or DSD rips. If I shared a wall with neighbors, they would be knocking on my door to complain right now 😁

why not feed Chord Mojo with 705kHz direct from PGGB?

[davide256]

7 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

why not feed Chord Mojo with 705kHz direct from PGGB?

Doesn't sound as tight and defined as using the IRIS. Part of the problem is finding a micro USB cable as good as Lush 2.

[muski]

3 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

Check - 'Auto rate family',

Set 'Sample rate ' under PCM Settings to 'auto'

Leave Rate limit as is.

 

Are you having this issue with 768kHz all the time?  Are you able to play the 768kHz file directly using HQP without Roon? (you can click on the library link on HQPe web interface, browse to your library location), then play it from HQPe to test.

 

Are you not seeing remastero (other) in your application launcher? Or it should appear if you just type the name PGGB

 

Alternately you can also launch by double clicking PGGB in the application folder, in both cases the first launch can take a bit of time.

 

 

Hi ZB—

 

Many thanks for your help. I found and added the PGGB app to my dock. Good stuff.

 

On the static in the right channel at 768, it wasn't HQP, as it also happened straight from Roon. Swapped some USB cable around—still there. Finally I tried USB out of my iMac as a Roon endpoint and no static. So it seem like an issue with my OpticalRendu. I pinged Jesus R at Sonore. Hope it's fixable as it's a wonderful streamer that gives the blackest of backgrounds.

 

Is anyone else using an opticalRendu or ultraRendu streamer?

 

Cheers,

muski

[muski]

PS As I was tracking down the static bug, I also tested with my Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker in/out of my chain. I had forgotten what an impactful bit of gear it is—it brings out the low-end with such authority and control, and the soundstage is much wider and tighter. A very nice pairing with 16FS gargle-blasted files.

 

muski

[blueninjasix]

I'm a long time user of HQPlayer into a Qutest but I don't use Roon. (I stream from a pc to an Allo USBridge Signature) I gave up using 768kHz because of the intermittent blasts of static into the right channel. It never happens at 705kHz. Others have reported the same static problem on the Room forums.

[ambre]

17 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

Edit - Updated link related to volume control: PGGB - Volume Control

It is best to do the digital volume control in just one place. In your setup, you have a few choices

1. Do not use the volume control on your Auralic app, turn off Noise shaping in PGGB, use volume control in HQP with dither set to LNS15

I have Fully Passive Volume Control in my Vega G2.1 .

Precise control, distortion free, noise free. The only way to get all three is to construct a R-2R resistor ladder network.

 

17 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

On Auralic  app you need to set your volume to max, or if there is an option for fixed volume.

Please see above. I have set HQPlayer to zero. That means your earlier remark  If you do not typically adjust volume and leave it at a fixed level (like -4dB in your screen shot), use gain slider in PGGB to set gain to -4dB, set Noise shaping to Auto/on in PGGB, then set gain on HQP to 0 and dither to none. Isn't valid anymore?

 

On Auralic  app you need to set your volume to max, or if there is an option for fixed volume. Yes, but than I would another Pre-amp🙄

[ambre]

Dear Zaphod and others, 

 

Between PGGB and Your DAC manual:

 .....your DAC must be configured to do the least processing.

 

Setting up your DAC:

A direct USB connection to your DAC from the end point is ideal (i.e., not using any upsamplers).

 

1) What about a HQ-player NAA as endpoint ? Is that better?

 

Do some people use re-clockers/ regenerators between direct USB connection and/ or with the NAA? Like the Innuous or Uptone IsoRegen etc?

What is your advice / experience?

 

2) See that processing power of 768khz with all parameter set to NONE is very low during playing/ operation. Despite  Gargling with 32GB onboard and additional cooling device on my Mac mini I7 (🥵6 cores) INTEL.

 

3) Did somebody already compared DSD 256 with EC filters versus 786 Gargled files?

 

Best regards Andreas

[kelvinwsy]

I am testing HQPlayer 4.10.3 polysinc-xtr-lp AMSDM7EC512+fs on 44.1khz upsampling compared to :

PGGB

1. Natural Transparent Minimal (Default setting)

2. Front Row Dense Moderate

3. Front Row Transparent  Moderate

4. Natural Moderate Full 

 

My comments are of course relevant to my system and my setup.

 

1. HF Noise Filter affects the HF. = Full setting is a bit 'heavy handed' - makes massed strings in a crescendo sound hard.

2. Transparent presentation setting is my favorite setting - a bit lighter and more airy

3. Matched with Natural Transparency setting makes for nice Sound stage presentation and airy open sound quality

 

Comparison with HQ Player DSD EC modulator proved interesting.

Somehow with all noise shaping and dither switched off in HQPlayer to enable bit perfect straight thru playback, I heard the noisy USB3.0 4TB Drive that I had the music PGGB music files on when listening to quiet orchestra music. 

Switched back to the same song on my SSD earthed and mumetal wrapped on LT3045 external power and the very low level intermittent soft clicking sound was gone. 

 

OK back to the comparision. The Default setting on PGGB is very very good for my listening tastes. My HQPlayer was virtually silent as the cooling fans were just idling away - Almost NO load on HQPlayer. vs DSD EC upsampling which puts a lot of load on the CPU and MOBO.

 

The DSD256 -  AMSDMEC7 512+fs gives a most airy and open sound stage and quality on my system suited to my tastes. But the Default setting for PGGB is so close that I can live with it at anytime. Tomato - ToMATO if you know what I mean.

 

BUT - on my downgraded 6700k HQplayer server with no mods - (All stripped out for my new 10700k server), PGGB just as DSD128 AMSDMEC7 or DSD256 AMSDMEC5 shows up the inadequate Hardware which does not do justice for the quality of the source music.

 

So my recommendation  - get your Hardware up to grade if you want to hear the real transparent wonderful SQ of the PGGB music files. (in any of the settings)

 

Happy Listening

[kelvinwsy]

Just forgot to mention all PGGB files are 705.6 from 44.1 khz CD files Maximum Taps 1024Million, 32 Bit, Adaptive Noise Shaping On - Gain on Auto 

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

4 hours ago, ambre said:

I have Fully Passive Volume Control in my Vega G2.1 .

Precise control, distortion free, noise free. The only way to get all three is to construct a R-2R resistor ladder network.

I misunderstood your setup, I thought when you mentioned 'main volume by means of Auralic  app' it was software volume control. Then just ignore my prior comment, set HQP to 0dB and use your pre-amp for volume control. I am not familiar with the G2.1

 

3 hours ago, ambre said:

Setting up your DAC:

A direct USB connection to your DAC from the end point is ideal (i.e., not using any upsamplers).

 

1) What about a HQ-player NAA as endpoint ? Is that better?

 

Do some people use re-clockers/ regenerators between direct USB connection and/ or with the NAA? Like the Innuous or Uptone IsoRegen etc?

What is your advice / experience?

Perhaps I need to change my wording, in this context, all I meant was a bit-perfect pass through that does not alter the data. Re-clockers and regenerators will be OK.NAA  and HQP in pass through mode is also OK.

 

3 hours ago, ambre said:

2) See that processing power of 768khz with all parameter set to NONE is very low during playing/ operation. Despite  Gargling with 32GB onboard and additional cooling device on my Mac mini I7 (🥵6 cores) INTEL.

The CPU utilization will be very low during playback as there is nothing to process once the tracks are gargle-blasted. You can see that as an advantage of off-line processing as you keep the noise low.

[Progisus]

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/post-16370615

 

This Rob Watts take on the PGGB filters

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

3 minutes ago, mancolh said:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/post-16370615

 

This Rob Watts take on the PGGB filters

I respect Rob Watts and can see how the word 'Apodizing' can be misleading and lead to his comments. I have updated the FAQ to clarify this: PGGB - FAQ (remastero.com)

 

[Nikko1960]

1 hour ago, mancolh said:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hugo-m-scaler-by-chord-electronics-the-official-thread.885042/post-16370615

 

This Rob Watts take on the PGGB filters

 

I'm sitting this out.  If it's worth doing, then Jussi will come up with the gold standard solution, having been researching this tech for years with many, many happy customers.

[Progisus]

I am not a filter designer and understand only minimally the jargon. I have owned mscaler, hqplayer and now PGGB. To my ears the sound improvement is most noticeable with PGGB. Each upsampler has it's merits and of course ymmv. Thanks ZB for clarifying this.

[davide256]

52 minutes ago, Nikko1960 said:

 

I'm sitting this out.  If it's worth doing, then Jussi will come up with the gold standard solution, having been researching this tech for years with many, many happy customers.

Was wondering about this the other day... seems like Jussi could add on to the existing HQPlayer an output to disk option?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

9 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Was wondering about this the other day... seems like Jussi could add on to the existing HQPlayer an output to disk option?

There is already one HQPlayer Pro: Signalyst

 

Edit: PS: If an option had exited before (with the longest possible sinc filter, with a focus on time domain reconstruction), I would not have started this project as I have zero interest in replicating what is available. PGGB was born out of my own need and became public only because there seemed to be interest in something like this.

 

[davide256]

So

1) license obtained

2) 6TB NAS red plus drive ordered to accommodate file conversion of 800GB music, mostly CD rate

3) 16GB additional memory ordered for PGGB machine to reach 32GB for better conversion speed

4) default drive used for conversion is NVMe with 128GB virtual memory and 500GB free space

 

 

Any other steps one should take for the most efficient conversion of an existing library?

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

3 minutes ago, davide256 said:

So

1) license obtained

2) 6TB NAS red plus drive ordered to accommodate file conversion of 800GB music, mostly CD rate

3) 16GB additional memory ordered for PGGB machine to reach 32GB for better conversion speed

4) default drive used for conversion is NVMe with 128GB virtual memory and 500GB free space

 

 

Any other steps one should take for the most efficient conversion of an existing library?

 

 

1.  Just organize your library so  it is easy to process in batches. Alternately, you can use this option. If you want to process say 50 out of 800 albums, you can add the paths to the albums in a text file. 

 

Quote

Advanced: If PGGB finds 'pggb_to_process.txt' in the input folder, it will process the list of folders in the text file (recursively), in addition to any folders in the input folder. By default, it will create a folder with the name of the parent folder. If it finds ‘FQN’ in the first line of the text file, it will replicate the full directory structure (Excluding the drive letter) in the output folder.

 

2. Another option used by some garble-blasting power users is to point the output folder to your NAS or music server where the gargle-blasted files will reside. The writes will be a little slow, but it avoids moving files. 

 

3. Start your conversions once all your music listening is done for the day, prepare a manageable batch for over-night gargle-blasting. Wake up in the morning and you will have new gargle-blasted tunes fresh and toasty.