chrille Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: With 16GB of RAM you will have to limit it to CDs and 256M taps. Big Sur is not a requirement, I suggested it for future proofing reasons. Mojave or Catalina will be OK too. RAM is what PGGB requires most, and on a Mac, unlike wWindows it is not possible to change virtual memory/swap space. If you can go up to 32GB for Hires and 40-64GB for DSD. You can do DSD at 32GB but may have to limit it to 512M taps if you run out of memory. Thanks again , ok then I will have to look for something else. What about mac minis? Quite a few of those for sale second hand here. I have seen one with 64 gigabyte ram but I would need to put a bigger harddrive in it. But regarding taps I would like to know how many really matter for ultimate SQ? The testfiles I have max out at 255M I think . But with DSD one could run into billions right? And do those extra taps above 255M really count? I know little about the maths involved here but I asked Rob how many taps would be needed to fully recover a 24 bit signal the same way 1M recovers 16/44.1 and his response was 250M taps. Please elaborate further on the importance of taps with PGGB. I would not like to be limited to not enough taps. I am an old school Audiophile with experience of classical music recording sessions and I want to get as close as possible to mic-feed with acoustic music. I will rather wait a bit to get it all right than jump onboard with too limited processing power. Cheers Chrille Link to comment
SwissBear Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 32 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said: On checking the official specs of the Gustard A22 - it does not specify 705.6. Only the SMSL VMV D1. The iFi iDSD sounds great with the 32fs. I think I will try 16fs on some similar test tunes and try them out on the Gustard A22. Report back in a day or so. If you look at the very bottom of this page, you will notice that A22 is specified for up to 768 kHz on the I2S/USB inputs. http://www.gustard.cn/?post_type=products&page_id=8942 Hope this helps. Link to comment
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 33 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said: I have reduced the gain -5db to prevent clipping and this allows me to play 0db max and min under PCM playback mode. (I tried Source and it sounded weird and distorted.) Where did you set this -5dB gain? in HQP? With PGGB, there will be no clipping and the only reason to set a gain is if you cannot use the DAC for volume control 35 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said: My question(if I understand the exchange between the 2 experts Zaphod and Miska) is this: 1. Are there recommended DACs which are recommended to play back 32fs and even 64 fs files I do not think there is a DAC in the market that will play PCM at 64fs rate. There are R2R DACs such as the May DAC and Terminator that can play 32FS PCM. 31 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said: On checking the official specs of the Gustard A22 - it does not specify 705.6. Only the SMSL VMV D1. The iFi iDSD sounds great with the 32fs All the three DACs you have will support up to 16fs (705.6/768kHz) PCM via USB. When the specification says up to 768kHz, it includes 705.6kHz While many here are using Chord DACs and R2R DACs, there are also those who have tried and like PGGB with delta sigma DACs like the Gustard x26 Pro, TAD DAC, dCS, topping D90 etc. In all these cases (and especially with delta sigma DACs), there is certainly a YMMV factor and I always suggest trying with the the default recommended settings in NOS mode where available and rest of the chain in pass through. Sometimes when no NOS mode is available, you may have to try the filters on your DAC and in that case I recommend a slow roll off linear filter. Author of PGGB & RASA, remastero Update: PGGB-256 is completely revamped, improved, and now uses much less memory New: PGGB-IT! is a new interface for PGGB 256, supports multi-channel, smaller footprint, more lossless compression options Free: foo_pggb_rt is a free real-time upsampling plugin for foobar2000 64bit; RASA is a free tool to do FFT analysis of audio tracks System: TT7 PGI 240v > Paretoaudio Server [SR7T] > Adnaco Fiber [SR5T] >VR L2iSE [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Infinity PC]> QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation RCA> Omega CAMs, JL Sub, Vox Z-Bass/ [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation PC] KGSSHV Carbon CC, Audeze CRBN Link to comment
Popular Post Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted May 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 28, 2021 1 hour ago, chrille said: Thanks again , ok then I will have to look for something else. What about mac minis? If you can provide some information on the processor, then that is helpful. An intel i5 or higher would be better. 1 hour ago, chrille said: But regarding taps I would like to know how many really matter for ultimate SQ? The testfiles I have max out at 255M I think . But with DSD one could run into billions right? And do those extra taps above 255M really count? I know little about the maths involved here but I asked Rob how many taps would be needed to fully recover a 24 bit signal the same way 1M recovers 16/44.1 and his response was 250M taps. Please elaborate further on the importance of taps with PGGB. I would not like to be limited to not enough taps. I am an old school Audiophile with experience of classical music recording sessions and I want to get as close as possible to mic-feed with acoustic music. I will rather wait a bit to get it all right than jump onboard with too limited processing power. Cheers Chrille I have expanded more on taps here: https://www.remastero.com/faq.html#Taps and will try not to repeat all of it here. In a purely theoretical sense, an infinite number of taps would bee need for perfect reconstruction, but we do not live in an ideal world and it is not practical for such. According to Rob Watts , 1M taps are required for 16bits of accuracy, 256M for 24bits and since it is a 32 bit DAC (I am not entirely sure how those numbers were derived, though I can speculate based on quantization noise), extending the logic, for a 32bit accuracy you will need 64 billion taps! So 64 billion taps may be the theoretical limit beyond which more taps may not be beneficial for a 32 bit DACs. Of course this does not consider other factors such as the noise floor of the DAC, existence of tracks that can actually make use of such absurd lengths and limits of our human hearing. To be honest, when I started this journey out of boredom due to COVID lockdown sometime last fall, I was quite skeptical that taps beyond a few million would be beneficial, or if we will hear any difference. However, as we experimented, what myself and early alpha testers found was that we continued to hear an improvement with more taps to the extent where the number of taps matched the track length. As you know classical movements can sometimes span tens of minutes or even more than an hour and we continued to increase the number of taps to 2B and 4B and still continued to hear an improvement. Though I can stand by what I hear, I can only speculate how such extremely long sinc filters continue to improve SQ as at the very end of the 2B or 4B tap filters, the coefficients are really really small, yet they affect the reconstruction accuracy in a audible way. Another factor we found that allowed us to hear the effect of more taps was to use good quality noise shapers that significantly reduces the quantization noise in the audible range. This would make sense as lesser the digital noise, the more likely we can hear the aggregate effect of longer taps without them getting buried in the noise floor and typically results in better depth/texture/resolution. Regarding choosing the right about of RAM, it is easy to go overboard (64, 128 or even 256GB) but you need to draw a line for cost and practicality, but it very much depends on your library. I would say 64GB is safe if you have DSD 64 and a few DSD 128 or 256 tracks. If your library is primarily PCM, you will need more than 45 minute long track to exceed 2B. 64GB of memory will limit you to 2B taps, but that is ample and that is what I use. NanoSword and chrille 1 1 Author of PGGB & RASA, remastero Update: PGGB-256 is completely revamped, improved, and now uses much less memory New: PGGB-IT! is a new interface for PGGB 256, supports multi-channel, smaller footprint, more lossless compression options Free: foo_pggb_rt is a free real-time upsampling plugin for foobar2000 64bit; RASA is a free tool to do FFT analysis of audio tracks System: TT7 PGI 240v > Paretoaudio Server [SR7T] > Adnaco Fiber [SR5T] >VR L2iSE [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Infinity PC]> QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation RCA> Omega CAMs, JL Sub, Vox Z-Bass/ [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation PC] KGSSHV Carbon CC, Audeze CRBN Link to comment
davide256 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 22 hours ago, davide256 said: yea.. I'm suspecting noise creeps in when the IRIS down converts... will see if @taipan254 can corroborate. from Denafrips specs for IRIS DSD DSD64-DoP On All Output Up to DSD512 On USB Input & I²S Output PCM24bits / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192KHz On All Output Up to 768kHz On USB Input & I²S Output getting least objectionable artifacts feeding 176/24 to IRIS. The IRIS accepts 32 bit but converts on PCM output to 24, (excluding I2s?) where like down sampling I hear added treble irritants for 32 bit source conversion on coax/optical output Was hoping to stop at 176/24 FLAC size files but I really like the 705/24 wav down sampled by Stylus to 176/24 to feed the IRIS... doesn't have the treble irritants the IRIS creates from down sampling. Going to see if others like me will request Zeljko add wave pack support to Stylus Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 32 minutes ago, davide256 said: from Denafrips specs for IRIS DSD DSD64-DoP On All Output Up to DSD512 On USB Input & I²S Output PCM24bits / 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192KHz On All Output Up to 768kHz On USB Input & I²S Output getting least objectionable artifacts feeding 176/24 to IRIS. The IRIS accepts 32 bit but converts on PCM output to 24, (excluding I2s?) where like down sampling I hear added treble irritants for 32 bit source conversion on coax/optical output Was hoping to stop at 176/24 FLAC size files but I really like the 705/24 wav down sampled by Stylus to 176/24 to feed the IRIS... doesn't have the treble irritants the IRIS creates from down sampling. Going to see if others like me will request Zeljko add wave pack support to Stylus Have you tried creating 176/24 files directly using PGGB and do you still prefer downsampling done by Stylus? Author of PGGB & RASA, remastero Update: PGGB-256 is completely revamped, improved, and now uses much less memory New: PGGB-IT! is a new interface for PGGB 256, supports multi-channel, smaller footprint, more lossless compression options Free: foo_pggb_rt is a free real-time upsampling plugin for foobar2000 64bit; RASA is a free tool to do FFT analysis of audio tracks System: TT7 PGI 240v > Paretoaudio Server [SR7T] > Adnaco Fiber [SR5T] >VR L2iSE [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Infinity PC]> QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation RCA> Omega CAMs, JL Sub, Vox Z-Bass/ [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation PC] KGSSHV Carbon CC, Audeze CRBN Link to comment
davide256 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 32 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: Have you tried creating 176/24 files directly using PGGB and do you still prefer downsampling done by Stylus? Done the range of 176-353-705 rates and 24/32 bit depth in wav with my test track. Puzzles me that I can hear more with Stylus downsampling but details are better enunciated with 705>176 than they are with native 176. I cache all music to a FEMTO clocked NVME drive + the IRIS uses a FEMTO clock. DAC tested with was NOS Metrum Octave.... the Mojo internally up-samples PCM to 705/768 which is its own can of worms. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
Popular Post CNoblet Posted May 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 28, 2021 Using a 2015 MacBook Pro (16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3 RAM; 2.5 GHz Quad Core Intel Core i7, Big Sur 11.2.3) I encounter no problems upsampling DSD64 to the PGGB default configuration of 705.6/768 kHz sampling rate, Auto 512 m taps, 32 bit output depth and auto adaptive noise shaping. The only issue is with track lengths over 20 minutes, for which I change the output sample rate to 352.8/384. The average DSD album takes around 10 to 12 hours to convert, so I run one DSD album overnight and multiple pcm albums during the day, using the trial version of PGGB. Playback with a bog standard headless 2011 mac mini running Roon or Audirvana 3.5 into a Chord Mojo is mind-boggling -- absolutely smashing. My ears have arrived at their happy place. I will purchase PGGB as soon as I can do so comfortably. The best news (for me) is that I find it a complete cure for DAC upgradeitis. Goodness gracious what a wonderful toy this is. Thank you to Zaphod Beeblebrox and everyone else involved! austinpop, chrille and blueninjasix 2 1 Newbie Since 2/2015. Audirvana/Roon > Mid-2010 Mac Mini > USB > AQ Jitterbug > Chord Electronics Mojo > Naim NAP160 power amplifier > Naim NACA5 > Spendor SP2/3r + stereo REL subs. Link to comment
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 59 minutes ago, CNoblet said: The only issue is with track lengths over 20 minutes, for which I change the output sample rate to 352.8/384. @CNobletThanks for the feedback. For longer than 20 minutes, may I suggest trying 256M taps but keep output at 705.6/768kHz, I feel that will sound better. Off-line upsampling does relax the processing requirement of the playback server, as a bonus also reduces the possible noise generated by upsampling in real-time. CNoblet 1 Author of PGGB & RASA, remastero Update: PGGB-256 is completely revamped, improved, and now uses much less memory New: PGGB-IT! is a new interface for PGGB 256, supports multi-channel, smaller footprint, more lossless compression options Free: foo_pggb_rt is a free real-time upsampling plugin for foobar2000 64bit; RASA is a free tool to do FFT analysis of audio tracks System: TT7 PGI 240v > Paretoaudio Server [SR7T] > Adnaco Fiber [SR5T] >VR L2iSE [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Infinity PC]> QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation RCA> Omega CAMs, JL Sub, Vox Z-Bass/ [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation PC] KGSSHV Carbon CC, Audeze CRBN Link to comment
Popular Post austinpop Posted May 28, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 28, 2021 2 hours ago, CNoblet said: Using a 2015 MacBook Pro (16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3 RAM; 2.5 GHz Quad Core Intel Core i7, Big Sur 11.2.3) I encounter no problems upsampling DSD64 to the PGGB default configuration of 705.6/768 kHz sampling rate, Auto 512 m taps, 32 bit output depth and auto adaptive noise shaping. The only issue is with track lengths over 20 minutes, for which I change the output sample rate to 352.8/384. The average DSD album takes around 10 to 12 hours to convert, so I run one DSD album overnight and multiple pcm albums during the day, using the trial version of PGGB. Playback with a bog standard headless 2011 mac mini running Roon or Audirvana 3.5 into a Chord Mojo is mind-boggling -- absolutely smashing. My ears have arrived at their happy place. I will purchase PGGB as soon as I can do so comfortably. The best news (for me) is that I find it a complete cure for DAC upgradeitis. Goodness gracious what a wonderful toy this is. Thank you to Zaphod Beeblebrox and everyone else involved! That's great to hear! BTW - just as a teaser to you and others here who are debating what machine to use for PGGB. See below for what a fast machine with 128GB buys you. This is Mahler 5th (Fischer/Budapest) in DSD64. Notice the track lengths were long enough to exceed 3 billion taps, yet the entire album processed in 2.5 hours. So yes, it is possible to make do with 16/32/64GB or RAM, and this makes perfect sense when you are evaluating PGGB. But once you've decided that PGGB is for you, and if your tastes run to large symphonies, with movements exceeding 30 mins in length, and these are on native formats like DXD or DSD64/128/256, do yourself a favor and get a robust enough machine with 128GB (or even more) RAM. You'll thank me later. chrille and Re-tread 2 My Audio Setup Link to comment
austinpop Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 3 hours ago, davide256 said: Done the range of 176-353-705 rates and 24/32 bit depth in wav with my test track. Puzzles me that I can hear more with Stylus downsampling but details are better enunciated with 705>176 than they are with native 176. I cache all music to a FEMTO clocked NVME drive + the IRIS uses a FEMTO clock. DAC tested with was NOS Metrum Octave.... the Mojo internally up-samples PCM to 705/768 which is its own can of worms. Dave, It seems like you're juggling with competing forces here. The Mojo is a Chord DAC, and to get the benefit of PGGB, you need to bypass the WTA1 stage - just like we are doing on our DAVEs, TT2s, etc. This requires 16FS PGGB files. You can't really use half measures here. Upsampling to 4FS or 8FS does not get the WTA1 stage out of the way, so the benefit of PGGB, while still possible, is going to be unknown. Yet I sympathize that the Mojo uses suboptimal connectors like micro-USB or 3.5mm coax as the only inputs capable of accepting 16FS. This does impose degradation due to poor cable choice and crappy connectors. And like many chains, a DDC has advantages to allow reclocking, regeneration, so I can see why the Iris was attractive - but only for native rates. For 16FS, you may be better off with a USB regenerator like the tX-USBultra or ISO-Regen. But this does add cost - I get that. If this were my system, my inclination would be to first go the best route for signal integrity, which is to preserve 16FS end to end: NUC/Euphony/Stylus > PGGB 32/16FS file > USB A to micro-B > Mojo The manual for the Mojo claims to allow support for 16FS on the 3.5mm coaxial input. The excerpt from the manual is: "1 x 3.5mm COAX SPDIF capable of playing 44.1KHz to 384Khz PCM (768KHz special operation) and DSD64, DSD128 in DoP format" EDIT: the manual appears to be incorrect, as I found a post by Rob that confirms dual-SPDIF mode is not supported on the Mojo. If the above is truly an option, you could try the Audiowise SRC-DX adapter, and do this: NUC/Euphony/Stylus > PGGB 24/16FS file > USB > SRC-DX > DBNC to 3.5mm cable > Mojo. The SRC-DX route, which admittedly also adds cost, would also potentially uplift SQ by avoiding the Amanero USB controller. It just seems like the Iris, with its 4FS limit on the input, is not a great fit with the Mojo/PGGB path. All that said, these are competing tradeoffs, and the path you're on may well get you to the best compromise possible, given the limitations. At this point, your own experiments are going to be the best way forward, as none of us are using (or would use) PGGB in this way. I hope you find a good answer. My Audio Setup Link to comment
davide256 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 19 minutes ago, austinpop said: Dave, It seems like you're juggling with competing forces here. The Mojo is a Chord DAC, and to get the benefit of PGGB, you need to bypass the WTA1 stage - just like we are doing on our DAVEs, TT2s, etc. This requires 16FS PGGB files. You can't really use half measures here. Upsampling to 4FS or 8FS does not get the WTA1 stage out of the way, so the benefit of PGGB, while still possible, is going to be unknown. Yet I sympathize that the Mojo uses suboptimal connectors like micro-USB or 3.5mm coax as the only inputs capable of accepting 16FS. This does impose degradation due to poor cable choice and crappy connectors. And like many chains, a DDC has advantages to allow reclocking, regeneration, so I can see why the Iris was attractive - but only for native rates. For 16FS, you may be better off with a USB regenerator like the tX-USBultra or ISO-Regen. But this does add cost - I get that. If this were my system, my inclination would be to first go the best route for signal integrity, which is to preserve 16FS end to end: NUC/Euphony/Stylus > PGGB 32/16FS file > USB A to micro-B > Mojo The manual for the Mojo claims to allow support for 16FS on the 3.5mm coaxial input. The excerpt from the manual is: "1 x 3.5mm COAX SPDIF capable of playing 44.1KHz to 384Khz PCM (768KHz special operation) and DSD64, DSD128 in DoP format" EDIT: the manual appears to be incorrect, as I found a post by Rob that confirms dual-SPDIF mode is not supported on the Mojo. If the above is truly an option, you could try the Audiowise SRC-DX adapter, and do this: NUC/Euphony/Stylus > PGGB 24/16FS file > USB > SRC-DX > DBNC to 3.5mm cable > Mojo. The SRC-DX route, which admittedly also adds cost, would also potentially uplift SQ by avoiding the Amanero USB controller. It just seems like the Iris, with its 4FS limit on the input, is not a great fit with the Mojo/PGGB path. All that said, these are competing tradeoffs, and the path you're on may well get you to the best compromise possible, given the limitations. At this point, your own experiments are going to be the best way forward, as none of us are using (or would use) PGGB in this way. I hope you find a good answer. I hear you... am I correct that a Denafrips Pontus would not support 16FS? Pontus architecture description "True balanced 24BIT R2R + 6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters)" Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
davide256 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 BTW... I'm a formula kind of guy, couldn't find one searching this article or the internet 1) What is the definition of FS used here? I'm assuming its not decibels as found on the internet or simple sample rate. 2) what is the calculation equation for FS units? Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 13 minutes ago, davide256 said: I hear you... am I correct that a Denafrips Pontus would not support 16FS? Pontus architecture description "True balanced 24BIT R2R + 6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters)" According to the specs on their site The Pontus can do up to 32FS via USB davide256 1 Author of PGGB & RASA, remastero Update: PGGB-256 is completely revamped, improved, and now uses much less memory New: PGGB-IT! is a new interface for PGGB 256, supports multi-channel, smaller footprint, more lossless compression options Free: foo_pggb_rt is a free real-time upsampling plugin for foobar2000 64bit; RASA is a free tool to do FFT analysis of audio tracks System: TT7 PGI 240v > Paretoaudio Server [SR7T] > Adnaco Fiber [SR5T] >VR L2iSE [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Infinity PC]> QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation RCA> Omega CAMs, JL Sub, Vox Z-Bass/ [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation PC] KGSSHV Carbon CC, Audeze CRBN Link to comment
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 1 minute ago, davide256 said: BTW... I'm a formula kind of guy, couldn't find one searching this article or the internet 1) What is the definition of FS used here? I'm assuming its not decibels as found on the internet or simple sample rate. 2) what is the calculation equation for FS units? I have a FAQ article for it: PGGB - FAQ (remastero.com) davide256 1 Author of PGGB & RASA, remastero Update: PGGB-256 is completely revamped, improved, and now uses much less memory New: PGGB-IT! is a new interface for PGGB 256, supports multi-channel, smaller footprint, more lossless compression options Free: foo_pggb_rt is a free real-time upsampling plugin for foobar2000 64bit; RASA is a free tool to do FFT analysis of audio tracks System: TT7 PGI 240v > Paretoaudio Server [SR7T] > Adnaco Fiber [SR5T] >VR L2iSE [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Infinity PC]> QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation RCA> Omega CAMs, JL Sub, Vox Z-Bass/ [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation PC] KGSSHV Carbon CC, Audeze CRBN Link to comment
davide256 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 12 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: I have a FAQ article for it: PGGB - FAQ (remastero.com) Thanks... so basically FS is sampling rate multiples of 44.1/48 which is half the equation, the other half being bit depth. All though there are always those that argue we can't hear more than 20 bits which seems like nonsense after comparing 705/20 to 705/32.... 14 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: According to the specs on their site The Pontus can do up to 32FS via USB So the Pontus can do 32FS but its going to be limited by its architecture to 24 bits vs 32 for a Chord DAC? Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
austinpop Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 30 minutes ago, davide256 said: I hear you... am I correct that a Denafrips Pontus would not support 16FS? Pontus architecture description "True balanced 24BIT R2R + 6BIT DSD (32 steps FIR Filters)" 15 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: According to the specs on their site The Pontus can do up to 32FS via USB But note the following on the Iris specs: So you could send 32FS to the Pontus II via a direct USB connection — assuming your player supported 32FS. But if you put an Iris in the path, then you're limited to 16FS. Also, if you follow the discussions on 32FS DACs in the HQP and Holo May DAC threads, getting 32FS to work over USB can be fussy, and requires specific drivers/firmware. And — because the Pontus II is an R2R DAC, your best results may come when you noise shape the sample depth to somewhere in the 18-24 bit range. Let's assume 20-bit is the sweet spot. When the time comes, and you have the Pontus II in your hot little hands , you would want to try these paths and see what sounds better: NUC/Euphony/Stylus > PGGB 20/32FS file > USB > Pontus II NUC/Euphony/Stylus > PGGB 20/16FS file > USB > Iris > I2S > Pontus II. davide256 1 My Audio Setup Link to comment
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 39 minutes ago, davide256 said: All though there are always those that argue we can't hear more than 20 bits which seems like nonsense after comparing 705/20 to 705/32.... 39 minutes ago, davide256 said: So the Pontus can do 32FS but its going to be limited by its architecture to 24 bits vs 32 for a Chord DAC? Be it 20bits or 32bits, it comes down to the quantization noise in the audible spectrum (and of course the DAC). Noise shaping is a great leveler in this regards. At higher sample rates (16FS, 32FS etc), it is mathematically possible to push the noise out of the audible spectrum. At higher rates (32FS) you can achieve a lower noise floor and get comparable noise floor performance even at 20 bits to 32bits at 16FS. So I will not be overly concerned because of the reduced bit-depth. In fact, I have currently moved to using 16FS noise shaped to 24bits into my DAVE via dual BNC instead of 32bits via USB and do not miss 32bit input. Bypassing DAVE's USB receiver has made the music more lively, the transients are more impactful and there is more midrange presence. As a bonus the background is quieter and the storage space requirement also reduced. Edit: The above statements is with regards to bypassing the USB receiver and does not imply that 24 bit is inherently better than 32bits, what it says is noise shaping provides enough leeway to explore other options such as BNC (which is limited to 24bits) without (to my ears) apparent reduction in resolution or depth. Author of PGGB & RASA, remastero Update: PGGB-256 is completely revamped, improved, and now uses much less memory New: PGGB-IT! is a new interface for PGGB 256, supports multi-channel, smaller footprint, more lossless compression options Free: foo_pggb_rt is a free real-time upsampling plugin for foobar2000 64bit; RASA is a free tool to do FFT analysis of audio tracks System: TT7 PGI 240v > Paretoaudio Server [SR7T] > Adnaco Fiber [SR5T] >VR L2iSE [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Infinity PC]> QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation RCA> Omega CAMs, JL Sub, Vox Z-Bass/ [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation PC] KGSSHV Carbon CC, Audeze CRBN Link to comment
davide256 Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 11 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said: Be it 20bits or 32bits, it comes down to the quantization noise in the audible spectrum (and of course the DAC). Noise shaping is a great leveler in this regards. At higher sample rates (16FS, 32FS etc), it is mathematically possible to push the noise out of the audible spectrum. At higher rates (32FS) you can achieve a lower noise floor and get comparable noise floor performance even at 20 bits to 32bits at 16FS. So I will not be overly concerned because of the reduced bit-depth. In fact, I have currently moved to using 16FS noise shaped to 24bits into my DAVE via dual BNC instead of 32bits via USB and do not miss 32bit input. Bypassing DAVE's USB receiver has made the music more lively, the transients are more impactful and there is more midrange presence. As a bonus the background is quieter and the storage space requirement also reduced. Edit: The above statements is with regards to bypassing the USB receiver and does not imply that 24 bit is inherently better than 32bits, what it says is noise shaping provides enough leeway to explore other options such as BNC (which is limited to 24bits) without (to my ears) apparent reduction in resolution or depth. How would one get dual BNC output from a digital audio server? DAC wise I know that Qutest, Hugo TT and DAVE all support dual BNC for 768/32 but always assumed that was useful only with their M Scalar option. USB is such a PITA if there is any system electrical noise. Regards, Dave Audio system Link to comment
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 28 minutes ago, davide256 said: How would one get dual BNC output from a digital audio server? DAC wise I know that Qutest, Hugo TT and DAVE all support dual BNC for 768/32 but always assumed that was useful only with their M Scalar option. USB is such a PITA if there is any system electrical noise. Agreed dual BNC is an option only for Chord DACs (DAVE/TT2/Hugo2) and I brought it up to illustrate that 32 bits is not a necessity with noise shaped signals. @austinpop mentioned it in his previous post the SRC.DX will allow USB to dual BNC conversion into Chord DACs, davide256 1 Author of PGGB & RASA, remastero Update: PGGB-256 is completely revamped, improved, and now uses much less memory New: PGGB-IT! is a new interface for PGGB 256, supports multi-channel, smaller footprint, more lossless compression options Free: foo_pggb_rt is a free real-time upsampling plugin for foobar2000 64bit; RASA is a free tool to do FFT analysis of audio tracks System: TT7 PGI 240v > Paretoaudio Server [SR7T] > Adnaco Fiber [SR5T] >VR L2iSE [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Infinity PC]> QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation RCA> Omega CAMs, JL Sub, Vox Z-Bass/ [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation PC] KGSSHV Carbon CC, Audeze CRBN Link to comment
muski Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 I’m looking to play back PGGB files on a Mojo+Poly. I’m not liking Roon sound quality for critical listening so looking for other options. But when I use mConnect, I notice it only supports 24-bit (which I think is a DLNA limit?) Is MPD 32-bit or 24-bit? I guess the other option is to create a PGGB playlist and use GoFigure. I assume that would play back 32-bit. Any other ideas? cheers, muski Link to comment
sig8 Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 I am still reading through the thread. A quick question. Would I need 64GB RAM on a i9-10900 machine to do 32fs conversion, or 32GB RAM is enough. My DAC is Denafrips Terminator +. Most of my collection is 44.1 PCM (90%), about 200 DSD 64 rips, and some 192, 96kHz, downloads. I can add another 32GB if I buy the software, trial purposes for now. Thanks. Link to comment
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 5 minutes ago, sig8 said: I am still reading through the thread. A quick question. Would I need 64GB RAM on a i9-10900 machine to do 32fs conversion, or 32GB RAM is enough. My DAC is Denafrips Terminator +. Most of my collection is 44.1 PCM (90%), about 200 DSD 64 rips, and some 192, 96kHz, downloads. I can add another 32GB if I buy the software, trial purposes for now. Thanks. You can make do with 32GB RAM for Trial to convert to 32FS as PCM -> PCM is less demanding. Keep the maximum Taps to 1024M, you can also do DSD but it will be a bit slow. You will need to make sure you can allocate 128GB of virtual memory on a internal SSD (NVME even better). If you like PGGB enough and decide to buy, then I will recommend going up to 64GB (2Billion taps). However if you are a fan of classical music it is likely that your tracks are longer and if you can add more RAM (beyond 64GB) that will benifit you in the long run. If you are a fan of classical music, be sure to look at this post: Author of PGGB & RASA, remastero Update: PGGB-256 is completely revamped, improved, and now uses much less memory New: PGGB-IT! is a new interface for PGGB 256, supports multi-channel, smaller footprint, more lossless compression options Free: foo_pggb_rt is a free real-time upsampling plugin for foobar2000 64bit; RASA is a free tool to do FFT analysis of audio tracks System: TT7 PGI 240v > Paretoaudio Server [SR7T] > Adnaco Fiber [SR5T] >VR L2iSE [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Infinity PC]> QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation RCA> Omega CAMs, JL Sub, Vox Z-Bass/ [QSA Silver fuse, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation PC] KGSSHV Carbon CC, Audeze CRBN Link to comment
sig8 Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 I will get another 2-32GB stick, it will be 96GB for now. I have a 500GB SSD on hand. I will be using this machine for playback as well, running HQPe on Audiolinux, that is what I do right now. NVMe v/s SSD is for the speed of conversion or it affects the sound quality for those who rum HQP on the hard disk? Link to comment
Progisus Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 For users of servers with embedded HQPlayer. I’ve noticed significantly better hqplayer pggb playback by using the embedded on the EX (Antipodes server) rather than a desktop version. Files for embedded are on the EX. Files for desktop are on usb drive attached to desktop machine. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now