ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

What ever happened to the day when one could make an appointment with a well equipped audio store to setup various pieces of equipment and speakers in the listening room, and then go in with your music and, with no particular expectations, then simply be wowed, without ever thinking about what it should actually sound like?

 

Advantages and disadvantages to that.  Sometimes what "wows" you is a "one trick pony" that becomes boring over time.  Sometimes it's just a really good system.  Sometimes it's because you're feeling great that particular day.

 

Could be hard to know which.

 

I don't worry overmuch about it; I enjoy the music from my system consistently.  I make important changes very slowly.  (Amp and preamp are 25+ years old; speakers have been from the same manufacturer 30+ years, got the current ones probably 5+ years ago used from a friend).

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Andyman said:

 

Of course I know this.

 

Perhaps I'm not explaining correctly.

Hendrix (or whoever) was in his studio with his mastering engineer. What they heard coming out of the speakers was the sound they wanted. This is already a once (or more) remove from "the recording".

How do you reproduce that? Maybe high end is all just bollocks after all (Acid, weed, whiskey may help!)

 

 

Totally. The sound captured and released on the recording is only a facsimile of the real thing. However, we have to use what's delivered to us. We don't know what Little Wing sounded like in the studio that day. Or perhaps, Hendrix was satisfied with the sound on the album after mixing and said this is what I want to deliver, given that I can't deliver myself to everyone's home. Thus, by converting to DSD on some audio systems we get as close as we can to the sound of the delivered recording. If we don't convert to DSD on some systems, the sound is farther away from what was OK'd for the commercial release. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I have seen the Sony OLED used by mastering houses during a Blu ray mastering process side by side with a consumer tv. Amazingly close. $30,000 for a 30’ set and a few grand for the consumer set. You can be very confident that with a properly calibrated set that you getting the right video fidelity at home in the proper lighting conditions. Not aware of a similar thing in home audio. The video calibration removes many of the variables for home video, especially with 4K, HDR and DC3 color gamut.

Once this calibration is done, then I believe we get into reproducing the colors during motion and all kinds of other variables. 

[JoeWhip]

The current generations of OLED and LEDs such as QLED are phenomenal. And wait for micro led which I hope to get in here, once I take care of a cataract and can properly see the damn thing. I am finished with the 2 channel room. Next is the HT room. 4K and Atmos . 

[charlesphoto]

11 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

Video is a whole other can of worms. I have been in a mastering house. An friend masters for DVD and Blu ray. They master to a standard to reference calibrated monitors that are extremely accurate. If you calibrate your set at home to these standards, You get to see what the director and cinematographer wants you to see. It is really amazing these days how close a consumer tv can get to a professional monitor. Nothing gets this close in audio, too many variables.

Yep. Monitors are a heck of a lot easier to deal with than audio because you are essentially dealing with one device vs a chain of devices and connections. And monitors that can be calibrated have what are known as LUT's (look up tables) so as long as one is using a standardized calibrater, then one can always calibrate any monitor to a certain standard. Though it's up to the user to determine what standard works best for them - for me and my NEC it's D55 and 95 nits to match my printer, for other users and other purposes it may be D65 and 160 nits. Nothing like this in audio at all, which is why we get what sounds good (to us), fits our budgets, interests, and aesthetics, and then just listen. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, charlesphoto said:

LUT's (look up tables)

 

I had to look this up last night. Couldn't remember what it stood for :~)

[Jud]

6 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I have seen the Sony OLED used by mastering houses during a Blu ray mastering process side by side with a consumer tv. Amazingly close. $30,000 for a 30’ set and a few grand for the consumer set. You can be very confident that with a properly calibrated set that you getting the right video fidelity at home in the proper lighting conditions. Not aware of a similar thing in home audio. The video calibration removes many of the variables for home video, especially with 4K, HDR and DC3 color gamut.

 

Sorry for the OT: At least as of a year or two ago, LG was making the OLED screens for Sony's OLED TVs.

 

My several year old LG OLED came with a couple of different available ISF settings (one for a darker room, one for a lighter one; I picked darker) that switch all the picture adjustments to the ISF-recommended values.

[JoeWhip]

I have some friends that travel the US and over to Korea doing calibrations, amazing what can be done today. With Blu ray and 4K Blu dying, I am glad I wired my HT closet,

[lucretius]

9 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I have seen the Sony OLED used by mastering houses during a Blu ray mastering process side by side with a consumer tv. Amazingly close. $30,000 for a 30’ set and a few grand for the consumer set. You can be very confident that with a properly calibrated set that you getting the right video fidelity at home in the proper lighting conditions. Not aware of a similar thing in home audio. The video calibration removes many of the variables for home video, especially with 4K, HDR and DC3 color gamut.

 

Are there consumer TV's with 100% DCI-P3 color gamut?

[JoeWhip]

Yes Jud, LG Display makes all of the OLED panels used in LG, Sony and Panasonic OLEDs. Each manufacturer has their own electronics driving them though. It is too bad you can’t get the Panasonic’s in the US. Love them.

[JoeWhip]

7 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

Are there consumer TV's with 100% DCI-P3 color gamut?

Not sure, will have to check. If not, the best sets get damn close. So much so that you will need a calibration camera to tell. Rec 2020,not so much.

[Summit]

29 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

what sounds natural and transparent to you with your system and room may not to someone else with a different processor between his or her ears. But, that being said, as long as you are satisfied and happy, that is all that really matters.

 

Yes we have preference in sound, color intense, food the list can be long. I get the gear that I think sounds natural, transparent and lifelike. It is not doubt that others can chose differently.  

[JoeWhip]

That’s why we have vanilla, chocolate and strawberry, even rocky road. Choices are good.

[Racerxnet]

5 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

Not sure, will have to check. If not, the best sets get damn close. So much so that you will need a calibration camera to tell. Rec 2020,not so much.

Anyone can get a i1Pro and calman to calibrate the video chain. Note I said the chain, not just the projection device.

[Andyman]

8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Totally. The sound captured and released on the recording is only a facsimile of the real thing. However, we have to use what's delivered to us. We don't know what Little Wing sounded like in the studio that day. Or perhaps, Hendrix was satisfied with the sound on the album after mixing and said this is what I want to deliver, given that I can't deliver myself to everyone's home. Thus, by converting to DSD on some audio systems we get as close as we can to the sound of the delivered recording. If we don't convert to DSD on some systems, the sound is farther away from what was OK'd for the commercial release. 

 

You're still not getting it.

No studios convert to DSD*

The commercial release was mixed and ok'd via pcm chain

Converting to DSD alters the sound (or why do it). 

Thus, by converting to DSD on some audio systems we get further from the sound of the delivered recording

 

If we don't convert to DSD on some systems, the sound is precisely what was OK'd for the commercial release. 

 

Geddit? (what are the chances you read Private Eye)

 

(*maybe there is one?)

 

 

[JoeWhip]

Racerxnet, Yes they can. I am too old to to learn new tricks. Don’t mind paying guys who I have known for years to do that for me. Some were involved in the development of Calman.

[Samuel T Cogley]

On 3/15/2021 at 12:17 PM, The Computer Audiophile said:

I try to let adults have discussions and frequently error on the side of non-moderation. Over moderating is the easy way. Finding balance is hard.

 

...or, this thread could be a stealthy way to malign ASR, with some apparently plausible deniability dressed up as "letting adults be adults"

[Summit]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

 

Going by Summit's way of thinking, one should use a calibrated monitor but then change the colors to show something more accurately rather than what's on the released video. 

 

Really that is not what I have said at all. I want it to sound like on the record, BUT have no way of knowing exactly how a particular record should sound like, so am left with the universal keys. Does it sound real and lifelike or do I want to stop listning after just 1/2 hour? Does a bunch of good recordings sound more like real instruments, played by real people, in real spaces with this or that gear? You have said that your goal is accurate to the source, but one can't hear accurate to the source by listning to a specific record. 

 

[Andyman]

4 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

...or, this thread could be a stealthy way to malign ASR, with some apparently plausible deniability dressed up as "letting adults be adults"

 

Easter's coming. And you're casting Chris as Pontius Pilate?

[Summit]

14 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

That’s why we have vanilla, chocolate and strawberry, even rocky road. Choices are good.

 

Yes as long as you know which has which flavor :)

[Samuel T Cogley]

3 minutes ago, Andyman said:

 

Easter's coming. And you're casting Chris as Pontius Pilate?

 

I just think it's bad form to trash another audio forum.  And that's what we're doing here, but there's enough off topic posts in the thread to make it seem like that's perhaps not the case.  But delete all those off topic posts, and this thread is just a way to trash ASR in particular and "objectivists" in general.

 

 

[Andyman]

6 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

I just think it's bad form to trash another audio forum.  And that's what we're doing here, but there's enough off topic posts in the thread to make it seem like that's perhaps not the case.  But delete all those off topic posts, and this thread is just a way to trash ASR in particular and "objectivists" in general.

 

 

 

Yeah but we're all on the spectrum...

[Summit]

CC can move the last 3-4 pages to his new thread.  

[sandyk]

20 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

I just think it's bad form to trash another audio forum.  And that's what we're doing here,

There has  already been more than enough trashing of A.S. and it's sponsors in ASR, however, 2 WRONGS don't make a RIGHT

[fas42]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

For video, many creators saturate the colors purposely. Our TVs should reproduce that saturation as released by the creators, not try to turn the saturation down in order to reproduce a more realistic picture. 

 

And there's the clue ... if you look at 'produced' content for TV the colour balance is all over the place, saturated, washed out, everything is brown tones - how to assess whether the TV is 'right' is via 'accidental' footage - news reports, press conferences in the outdoors, "natural" events ... get that matching as the real world looks to you, and then the rest will be 'distorted', as intended.

 

Quote

I definitely hear what you're saying, but the issue is that we have no clue what it's supposed to sound like. This may be vastly different from what you believe it sounds like in a "real" environment. If we are to reproduce audio as close to the original recording as possible, then we can't really rely on what we think something sounds like in real life unless we were at the recording and we know what was done to it for the final release

 

If you get a system to be very accurate, then it all falls into place - every person who sings sounds like a real person singing, no matter how normal, or bizarre are the other musical sounds. The other aspect is that everything you hear makes sense - you never have the, "I wonder that was?", or, "Why did they make that peculiar sound, just then?" moments.

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