ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

[The Computer Audiophile]

51 minutes ago, Andyman said:

 

You're still not getting it.

No studios convert to DSD*

The commercial release was mixed and ok'd via pcm chain

Converting to DSD alters the sound (or why do it). 

Thus, by converting to DSD on some audio systems we get further from the sound of the delivered recording

 

If we don't convert to DSD on some systems, the sound is precisely what was OK'd for the commercial release. 

 

Geddit? (what are the chances you read Private Eye)

 

(*maybe there is one?)

 

 

 

 

Here's is where I believe you don't understand how digital audio works. 

 

All digital audio goes through DSP to get more accurate to the recording. Converting to DSD doesn't alter the sound away from the recording, it alters it closer to the recording. It doesn't matter what signal chain was used in the recording process, what matters is taking the delivered albums and playing it as perfectly as possible. 

 

For example, if you play PCM at 44.1 on a specific DAC, you'l get nonlinearities and distortions. These are added by the DAC and not in the recording. If you convert to DSD on that same DAC, you remove these nonlinearities and distortions through DSP and you can hear as close as possible what's on the delivered recording. 

 

By using DSP and filtering you get precisely what's on the recording. All DAcs work this way. It doesn't matter the process they use, PCM, DSD, R2R, Ring DAC, Sabre DAC, etc... it's about the final analog output. Using DSP and DSD on some DACs gives you more accurate analog output that enables you to reproduce the recording delivered to consumers, more accurately. 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

P.S. @Andyman can you find someone on Earth who agrees with your logic on this? I'm all ears, but I think it's faulty. I'll even listen to the most objective people on this one. What does @pkane2001 say? I'm all ears. 

[fas42]

3 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

But not on a processed recording.

 

Ahh, the magic of the word, "processed" 🙂 ... this may be a shock to you, but human hearing can "hear through" most processing - unless it is deliberately distorting the sound tonality, in non-linear ways - as people have noted, acoustic instruments come through with the integrity of what they are 100% intact... if the playback is of a necessary standard.

 

I have hundred of recordings with pianos on them - every piano sound on each of them sounds different from that of every other one - but, they always sound like a piano; not some weird imitation of one, as one quite often gets on poor replay.

[Racerxnet]

8 minutes ago, fas42 said:

And there's the clue ... if you look at 'produced' content for TV the colour balance is all over the place, saturated, washed out, everything is brown tones - how to assess whether the TV is 'right' is via 'accidental' footage - news reports, press conferences in the outdoors, "natural" events ... get that matching as the real world looks to you, and then the rest will be 'distorted', as intended.

And this is where you have no "clue". Rec 601, 709, and 2020 are the standards that broadcasters, film houses and consumers can use to calibrate the output of the video chain. This insures that the viewer sees the content just as the director intended. If it is washed out, over/under saturated while the broadcast has met those standards, then you are the one with the the problem. 

 

Frank, you really have no understanding of what you are writing about.  

[Racerxnet]

Just now, fas42 said:

I have hundred of recordings with pianos on them - every piano sound on each of them sounds different from that of every other one - but, they always sound like a piano; not some weird imitation of one, as one quite often gets on poor replay.

Your replay chain is an "imitation" of the piano that was recorded.

[lucretius]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Once this calibration is done, then I believe we get into reproducing the colors during motion and all kinds of other variables. 

 

What?  Now you want a 146-inch microOLED, 8K, HDR, wide gamut screen with 300Hz refresh rates and <1s response times so you can watch the Game of Thrones?  🙂  

[Racerxnet]

Just now, lucretius said:

 

What?  Now you want a 146-inch microOLED, 8K, HDR, wide gamut screen with 300Hz refresh rates and <1s response times so you can watch the Game of Thrones?  🙂  

Yep,

 

As a thin screen roll out mat applied to the wall with perfect edge blending. All for $19.99!

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

What?  Now you want a 146-inch microOLED, 8K, HDR, wide gamut screen with 300Hz refresh rates and <1s response times so you can watch the Game of Thrones?  🙂  

Ha! 
 

Never seen GoT, but I’ve seen pictures on HBO app. 
 

Im not a big video guy. 

[JoeWhip]

I will take one to watch the Sixers win the NBA Championship to start.

[fas42]

4 minutes ago, Racerxnet said:

And this is where you have no "clue". Rec 601, 709, and 2020 are the standards that broadcasters, film houses and consumers can use to calibrate the output of the video chain. This insures that the viewer sees the content just as the director intended. If it is washed out, over/under saturated while the broadcast has met those standards, then you are the one with the the problem. 

 

Frank, you really have no understanding of what you are writing about.  

 

You have the McNamara issue well and truly - the numbers are everything,and nothing else matters ... 🙂.

 

I want the TV to be satisfying to watch - if every show has people with orange faces, then I get a bit sick of this - this doesn't reflect how the world is for me ... but if I see a purple face, a pink face, a brown face, a washed out, dull coloured face, and lo and behold, every now and then a naturally coloured face ... then, I think I'm in a pretty good place ... see?

[Racerxnet]

10 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

You have the McNamara issue well and truly - the numbers are everything,and nothing else matters ... 🙂.

 

I want the TV to be satisfying to watch - if every show has people with orange faces, then I get a bit sick of this - this doesn't reflect how the world is for me ... but if I see a purple face, a pink face, a brown face, a washed out, dull coloured face, and lo and behold, every now and then a naturally coloured face ... then, I think I'm in a pretty good place ... see?

LOL, if you see a purple face, orange face, etc., and you are the only one with the issue in town, I'd suggest you look in the mirror as the problem. I HIGHLY doubt the broadcasters are messing up the feed. If calibrated properly, and there is no added patina, then facial tones and all other colors look natural.

 

Some movies with an added tint/patina are, Matrix, Sin City etc...

[fas42]

20 minutes ago, Racerxnet said:

Your replay chain is an "imitation" of the piano that was recorded.

 

No, it creates the illusion of a real piano being played in a part of the space before me - if the piano being 'imitated' nearly always sounds 'broken', then it's failed ... I have a CD of layback jazz music, but the piano is clearly a digital device; the notes are very clean, and realistic, but there is no sound of other strings resonating which forms part of the mechanical piano sound. That's good - I hear all the cues that tells me what's going on.

[Racerxnet]

Just now, fas42 said:

 

No, it creates the illusion of a real piano being played in a part of the space before me - if the piano being 'imitated' nearly always sounds 'broken', then it's failed ... I have a CD of layback jazz music, but the piano is clearly a digital device; the notes are very clean, and realistic, but there is no sound of other strings resonating which forms part of the mechanical piano sound. That's good - I hear all the cues that tells me what's going on.

Sorry,

 

Real world science states we have created an imitation of the device. In this case the piano.

[pkane2001]

 

17 minutes ago, fas42 said:

if every show has people with orange faces, then I get a bit sick of this - this doesn't reflect how the world is for me ... but if I see a purple face, a pink face, a brown face, a washed out, dull coloured face, and lo and behold, every now and then a naturally coloured face ... then, I think I'm in a pretty good place ... see?

 

So you can't see through the orange to the natural color that was in the original recording? I'm SHOCKED! 😱

 

[Samuel T Cogley]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

There has  already been more than enough trashing of A.S. and it's sponsors in ASR, however, 2 WRONGS don't make a RIGHT

 

I wouldn't know.  I look at measurements at ASR, but I steer clear of the religious discussions.

[fas42]

3 minutes ago, Racerxnet said:

LOL, if you see a purple face, orange face, etc., and you are the only one with the issue in town, I'd suggest you look in the mirror as the problem. I HIGHLY doubt the broadcasters are messing up the feed. If calibrated properly, and there is no added patina, then facial tones and all other colors look natural.

 

 

We are talking about colour tints, right .... you mean, you have never seen a split screen presentation of say four people discussing something - and right there, you have a purple, pink, orange, and yellow caste combo? Lighting, environment, time of day, camera - all add up to give a rainbow effect, just on faces.

[fas42]

Just now, pkane2001 said:

 

 

So you can't see through the orange to the natural color that was in the original recording? I'm SHOCKED! 😱

 

 

Ahh, the original recording has orange, "as the natural colour" ... geddit? 🤪

[Samuel T Cogley]

45 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

All digital audio goes through DSP to get more accurate to the recording.

 

Hi Chris.  I've looked at this every way I can think of, and it still comes across as gibberish to me. Can you please elaborate?

 

Speaking of digital captures of analog sources, the closest you'll get to the original is the capture.  Further processing pushes it further away from the original.  But DSP "to get more accurate" is an oxymoron. 

[fas42]

6 minutes ago, Racerxnet said:

Sorry,

 

Real world science states we have created an imitation of the device. In this case the piano.

 

What matters, to me as a listener, is that I experience the illusion of what was going on when the music was being created - otherwise, I might as well read a description of what someone thought it sounded like; it has little value as a tactile experience - for me.

[Racerxnet]

Just now, fas42 said:

 

We are talking about colour tints, right .... you mean, you have never seen a split screen presentation of say four people discussing something - and right there, you have a purple, pink, orange, and yellow caste combo? Lighting, environment, time of day, camera - all add up to give a rainbow effect, just on faces.

I have my man cave, and calibrate all TV's and projectors to the desired and capable output of each device. REC 709 and 2020 in my case with the i1PRO and software. All devices look spot on for Black level detail, White balance, tint, saturation, fade to black etc. If the color is off from the broadcast or playback, it was intended to be that way, and everyone else will see similar results if accurately calibrated. 

 

If you have a rainbow effect you probably have the wrong color space selected from your DVD player or TV.  4.2.0, 4.2.2, 4.4.4, and bit depth selection play an important part of reproduction. Maybe you need to read up on this to qualify where your output stands. 

[pkane2001]

41 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

P.S. @Andyman can you find someone on Earth who agrees with your logic on this? I'm all ears, but I think it's faulty. I'll even listen to the most objective people on this one. What does @pkane2001 say? I'm all ears. 

 

I'm not an advocate for DSD as a storage or recording format. But arguments that converting to DSD somehow destroys the original sound is similar to an argument that upsampling destroys music. When done properly, both can represent all the audible signal in the original PCM. Any possible differences would then be due to the design choices made in software or hardware that convert it to analog. Some DACs process DSD directly, simplifying D-to-A circuitry, others may convert DSD to PCM only to convert it back to DSD. Most Delta-Sigma converters do the conversion to DSD without asking, so very frequently it can't be avoided. 

[pkane2001]

8 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

Ahh, the original recording has orange, "as the natural colour" ... geddit? 🤪

 

So you only watch orange shows? I'm confused, but not surprised ;)

 

Quote

if every show has people with orange faces...

 

[fas42]

Just now, Racerxnet said:

If the color is off from the broadcast or playback, it was intended to be that way, and everyone else will see similar results if accurately calibrated. 

 

Correct.

 

Just now, Racerxnet said:

 

If you have a rainbow effect you probably have the wrong color space selected from your DVD player or TV.  4.2.0, 4.2.2, 4.4.4, and bit depth selection play an important part of reproduction. Maybe you need to read up on this to qualify where your output stands. 

 

The rainbow effect is of the faces all on screen, at the same time  - but in different recording situations - split screen, remember? ... okay?

[JoeWhip]

On a color wheel, the opposite of teal is orange. That is why skin tones have a bit of an orange tinge in films where the color balance has that teal shift. I hate films that do that but that has been all the rage for years, especially sci fi. 

[Racerxnet]

Just now, fas42 said:

 

Correct.

 

 

The rainbow effect is of the faces all on screen, at the same time  - but in different recording situations - split screen, remember? ... okay?

And I am suggesting that you see a stair step/ rainbow pattern at various times due to the mismatch for your tv.