UpTone Audio EtherREGEN (Objective Discussion Only)

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, RussL said:

Surprised no one has mentioned Amir’s measurements of the etherRegen over at Audio Science Review.  His measurements of jitter (oh excuse me phase noise) with and without the Regen were absolutely identical. So the premise of additive phase noise upstream sounds like more BS to me. 😡

 

Except that the funny thing is, while the Audio Precision Amir worships at is a very nice general purpose unit, it is not that well suited to measuring jitter in DACs. What’s that? Heresy!  Yet if you look at the specifications for the ADC in the top-of-the-line APx555, you will see that its own jitter is 600 picoseconds!  So that will swamp the jitter details of a device under test—which might be in the range of 10s of picoseconds--or ideally less.

 

As I've said elsewhere, John has already measured these effects--with a Wavecrest system better suited to this--at the clock pin of DACs. 6dB improvement at 10Hz offset is what he has seen so far with EtherREGEN. Our tests using a custom 32 bit high-speed SAR ADC and analysis s/w--to show things after the DAC will come later. 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, MikePM said:

The objective thread here is short and minimalist while the one at ASR is substantially longer and more robust.

 

Most of the length of that "robust" thread is taken up by people calling us "fraudsters," "charlatans," and "imbeciles," as well as characterizing the thousands of happy owners of UpTone products as suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. So please excuse if we have little interest in engaging with such.

 

It is interesting how, quite objectively (), UpTone products seem to evoke the most strident, vitriolic responses from some segments of the "objectivist" group. Where are the pitchforks for all the several times our prices competitors, those who don't even begin to tell you about how and why their circuits are designed? And of course I am leaving out Ethernet cables and power supplies used for all these computer components--for which there are thousands of posters on this forum and around the globe.  Oh yes, it is all a mass delusion.

 

One other point: Someone complained about @austinpop's review, and the comments that followed it. Rajiv--and several other writers--asked to review the EtherREGEN right at launch. But I demurred and told them all that we did not want to bias the market (and in the case of Rajiv, with his complicated system, confuse people into thinking they needed all sorts of tweaks in order to enjoy the device). I wanted a few hundred buyers to just receive and try it and give their own personal feedback, as I felt that would be a more objective assessment of the EtherREGEN's performance in a wide range of systems.

 

28 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

I also wonder about the appropriate way to test the ER’s benefits at the output of a DAC.  What I’m not seeing is as a testable hypotheses put forth on how this would show up at the output. This would have to be tested in a way that can detect the impact of jitter being reduced.  First introduce a known amount of jitter - take a measurement at the output of the DAC - then remove it - take another measurement.  If no difference shows up then adjust the test methodology until it does - then you are ready to test the ER. 

 

Well that is exactly what John has been working on. And regardless of the specific details that I, as a non-engineer, may have gotten wrong or mis-quoted, the Audio Precision machine is not the instrument to fully examine what is going on and to show graphic effects of the EtherREGEN (or a range of other things that most have no trouble hearing but which are not showing up on an AP system). I don't care how fancy of an election microscope a medical lab has, there are some things that might only show up with genetic sequencing.

 

To that end, John has, just today (out of frustration with the long processing time of his system for capturing/analyzing data from his Wavecrest DTS-2079) sent a bank wire transfer of some $14,000 to Jackson Labs for their new PhaseStation 51000A. It is a far better instrument for analyzing jitter and phase-noise in digital systems.

And he continues to work on his set up with high-speed 32-bit SAR ADC to use for analysis of effects in the analog domain, at the output of a DAC. Not only does that set up require ultra-expensive reference clocks, it also will need multiple battery power supplies and shielded-box isolation if it is going to reveal the low-level stuff that is going on.

 

Now I know a lot of you here are going to jump up and down--as you have before--offering ridicule and scorn for how/why we developed a product before having the tools to truly measure its effects. Well, too bad. We were up front during the design phase that some of the circuit topology was implemented based on knowledge (after all John is an EEE with over 3 decades designing chips) of known electrical and digital effects, and that while he has measured man things--such as ground-plane noise and jitter--on different devices in the past, the application and measurement with this Ethernet switch was new and would require a lot of time. And in fact, until the product was designed and in production, there did not exist any complete sample to test.  So should all our happy customers send us back their EtherREGENs and wait for graphical measurements to confirm what they nearly all so readily here? Good luck with prying those out of their music systems! 

 

 

 

[Superdad]

40 minutes ago, jabbr said:

The AP device is not, to my knowledge, capable of measuring Ethernet clock jitter -- can it create a 1 Gbe eye pattern?

Have you measured the jitter/eye pattern on the opticalModule? (obviously this will block common mode noise  ) I'm going to assume the AP is not capable of measuring this.

 

John's Lecroy WavePro 7300 3-GHz scope can create and show Ethernet eye patterns, though just the nature of an eye-pattern (build up of thousands of sweeps) makes me wonder if it would reveal anything useful.  But I'm not the expert on measurement...

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, Bill_G said:

Look at the electrical characteristics instead. If you're not seeing any significant changes there, above the audible threshold of such phenomena, then it's perceptual biases causing the "differences". 

Precisely which electrical measurement characteristics do YOU think will correlate to the differences the reviewer hears between all the elements in his highly refined digital chain?  Do you believe that the “ASR verified” under $1,000 system you put together (and spoke about in another thread here) with $400 Yamaha integrated amp/streamer (a nice desktop piece though) will present music as compellingly and accurately as the one used in this review?

 

In one of your other posts—also in reply to a product review article on this site—you wrote:

 

”A performance analysis with a lab grade audio analyzer showing actual differences in output, or it only happened in your brain. That'll be the only evidence anyone with a extensive science and engineering background will ever accept. Our senses are too unreliable, too easily fooled by our emotion states and perceptions, to be accepted as valid evidence. So, yes... my mind is closed to opinions and anecdotal "evidence"... ”

 

There are other threads on this forum where you can take that debate. But it is not likely anyone reading this review is going to take your bait... 

 

[EDIT: Note that I recall writing the above reply when Mr. Bill’s post was made in the EtherREGEN review thread. I guess Chris moved both posts over to this thread—which is clearly where such debate should occur if desired. ]

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

In a bit I will be posting some ADC captures of audio playing from a $400 audiophile switch, a $19.99 D-Link GO-SW-8GE, and no connectivity what so ever.

 

Since the white paper premise is that we are affecting the DAC analog out and we are thus capturing that output....

 

Everyone will be able to listen and decide when it was an Audiophile Switch, a $20 D-link, or no switch at all.

 

I'm up for track suggestions and if people want to make a 16/44.1 track available just PM a D/L link. This should meet 100% the definition of objective. I'll capture a screencast of it.

 

That's pretty funny. You do realize that your ADC (unless it is some wildly spectacular unit) is going to wipe out any differences to be heard.  How about you first use that ADC to capture audio from a $100 DAC and a $5,000 DAC and have people report on what they hear. 

[Superdad]

44 minutes ago, RussL said:

Good one.  😄 Just trying to inject a little humor.

Russ

 

That's nothing compared to the "moderator" at Audio Science Review this morning posting this vile gem:

 

"I hear uptone claim to have a vaccine for coronavirus..."

 

People are dying and this is the sort of crap we see?!

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Seraph said:

Why don't you just publish the the research you did that compelled you to design the device in question?

//niklas

 

We did.

But some do not seem happy with that.

And John just spent $14K+ on a very sensitive phase-noise measurement system to prove that aspect of his theory.

 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Seraph said:

But in this case it has not been proven that the device in question does anything whatsoever.

 

Okay, now you are just being silly and your statement is patently false.

Let's leave aside that what you probably meant was that we have not yet provided graphical/visual proof of the efficacy of the EtherREGEN.

[And no point for you to cite Amir's attempts to see the effects though the A/D converter of his Audio Precision rig. The fact that his metrics and rhetoric claim that the latest $130 Topping DAC outperforms and sounds the same as top models from Chord, Mytek, Hegel, Linn, etc. should tell you all you need to know about the relevance and sensitivity of his test regimen when it comes to musical nuance. ]

 

You say that there is no proof our device does anything whatsoever. Let's look at that. How about we start with a visual to walk through:

 

Skipping some of the details such as the $60 worth of the world's lowest-noise integrated voltage regulators, the ultra-low-phase noise clock, and the differential clock buffers used everywhere, let's focus on the data itself. There is no other switch on the market which moves Ethernet data across a "moat" (shorthand for a 100% separated PCB domain with no common ground plane) using an active differential digital isolator (we use a special Ethernet chip protocol format to allow it with one isolator; the other one is used to send 25MHhz and 250MHz clock signals across). Other key elements involved in performing this trick are a very new Texas Instruments Ethernet format converter/transceiver chip (we were among the first OEMs to ever use this part and John corresponded with the TI project manager for it as he found documentation errors; actually we use two of the these parts--one on each side of the moat), and two pieces of a unique-in-the-world (and hard as heck to source) ultra-high-speed, ultra-low-jitter differential flip-flop--to further lower jitter on both sides of the moat. 

 

So to say our device "does nothing" is ridiculous. We are not selling wooden disks or some mystery wire passing through some fancy braided tube (many examples of which sell for far more than the 2x parts cost we charge).  This is a carefully engineered product which very much does something, even though that something is not changing the conceptual data "bits." And although we do not yet have the graphical evidence to correlate with the auditory results, we do have nearly 1,200 extremely satisfied users who have independently written extensively about what they hear with the EtherREGEN--in music systems from modest to mega-buck.

 

I'll close with an e-mail someone sent recently (he does not post on forums but gave me permission to quote him). John Z. from Reading, Massachusetts wrote:

"My Ethernet Regen arrived 4 days ago and, despite my hopes for modestly-improved audio quality of my Qobuz feed, I find that the eRegen has transformed audio streaming to an extent that surpasses all expectations. My sole audio source is a Laufer Teknik Memory Player. It has both streaming ability and internal SSD's. Streamed music has never sounded remotely as good as the stored files since the stored ones are WAV files upgraded to WAV 64. The difference used to be enormous but has disappeared now! I cannot distinguish any differences between the two and experienced audiophile friends cannot detect any differences either. This is a major accomplishment and has been effected at absurdly low cost. One can only surmise how much improvement might be realized with a JS-2 Linear Power Supply and a Star-Quad DC cable...This is an audio no-brainer if ever there was one!"

 

[Superdad]

12 minutes ago, Seraph said:

No scientific proof whatsoever, in other words. I honestly hope you publish these results soon. If you manage to back up your claims with cold scientific facts, I'll buy one.

Wow you are dense. Let's see your thermometer for "cold scientific facts." 

 

 

15 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Incorrect. See my response above to pkane.

 

11 minutes ago, manueljenkin said:

"My opinion being the device does nothing whatsoever for sound quality based on test results done." - how cool of you to keep ignoring facts that the tests done don't conclusively parametrize every audible trait and aberration.

 

Guess it is time to stop feeding the troll whose only posts--since he joined a few weeks ago--have been vacuous drivel in this thread...

[Superdad]

40 minutes ago, plissken said:

Do I trust a $28,000 analyzer that's entire pedigree is analog measurement in the human hearing band, or sighted bias?

 

Obviously you trust the former--to tell you that the latest $125 Topping miniature DAC sounds just as good as $10K-$30K reference DACs. That's what we see talked about over at that "other" place. And according to Amir, the mighty Topping must be vastly better than your $300 Emotiva Stealth. Guess it's time for an upgrade, eh Mark? 

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, charlesphoto said:

I do know Uptone broke one of these down in researching the eR. No clue how they measure. Don't care as they improved the sound of my system.

 

2 hours ago, plissken said:

1st off I recommend Cisco because it's simply well built. I've yet to hear them make an audible difference in my setup. I'd rather spend $60 on a used/refurb Enterprise class edge Cisco than $60 on a new Netgear. Although I've no complaints about all the Netgear GS series I've setup. Bullet proof and reliable as I could have ever wanted.

 

Having nothing to do with multicast, buffers, or any protocol stuff, there are some very specific circuit design elements that made the Cisco Catalyst 2960 a "good sounding" switch.

But since the skeptics in this thread are only interested in finding the results in the "poop," I'll not speak further about the ingredients that went into cooking the "soup." 

[Superdad]

4 minutes ago, jabbr said:

There are some very simple measurements that could be made ...

 

Very much along the lines of what we will publish. Though as you know, it takes careful attention to environmental factors to properly measure very low level noise.  And the perturbations we are looking at do not need to be very large to have the effect on clock threshold jitter that we believe are the root cause of the sonic differences heard.

 

@JohnSwenson's expensive new PhaseStation is showing just how much environmental factors influence low level phase-noise measurement. DC cables, vibration, fields in the air, lighting, even body presence are causing wild wiggles at the levels he is testing. He is building cases and supplies to reduce those distractions. And we are not even talking about your favorite, 1/f noise. 

[Superdad]

 

12 minutes ago, plissken said:

Alex, when you praise, or denigrate a piece of equipment you seem to toss in something about it's relative price.

 

On 3/31/2020 at 3:14 PM, plissken said:

Do I trust a $28,000 analyzer that's entire pedigree is analog measurement in the human hearing band, or sighted bias?

 

Pot, meet kettle. 

 

But seriously Mark, what is it you expect to measure or record with your 15 year old EMU PCI-e sound card? The one with the ground loop picking up mouse/drive interference inside your PC tower case. 

[Superdad]

6 minutes ago, the_bat said:

I know it's a short time sample but has anyone else noticed that this thread is responsible for 98% of the postings in Objective-fi this month?

 

I think it is probably driving sales too!  

 

(Seriously, one would think that the current sad world situation would depress the audiophile market, but we are busier than ever. I guess people are staying home and practicing what my wife calls "retail therapy.")

[Superdad]

17 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

Sadly, an overseas ad agency who has licensed an image in the five figures, contract signed and invoice sent, has suddenly decided to not reply to any of my emails, even though I let them know I don't care if the news is good or bad (perhaps the client isn't paying them).

 

Very sorry to hear that Charles. Bad news abounds, both with loss of life, and with jobs in the millions. Audio sure seems trivial and irrelevant in comparison. 

[Superdad]

3 minutes ago, Seraph said:

UpTone EtherRegen is a generic switch with a 640$ price tag.

 

Once again, show me one "generic" thing about it:

It is about as far from "generic" as you can get. Not counting case or power supply, this board--in 500 unit qty.--costs us over $200 each.