The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[MartinT]

16 hours ago, emailists said:

@MartinT can you comment which makes a bigger difference in the EtherRegen, the power supply you mentioned or the Upgraded clock?

 

Tricky question. Without getting into details, they both contribute a great deal to sound quality and take the ER to a whole new level. I'd probably start with the PSU as it's less expensive.

[R1200CL]

17 hours ago, emailists said:

the Upgraded clock?

If you refer to an AfterDark clock, you will need a very good power supply for that clock in any case. 
So then you can experiment with using that supply to power both 😀

[barrows]

3 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

If you refer to an AfterDark clock, you will need a very good power supply for that clock in any case. 
So then you can experiment with using that supply to power both 😀

It is a compromise to power a separate clock with the same power supply used for the eR...  the noise made by the eR will, to some degree, be fed back into the power supply and show up on the power rails feeding the clock.  If one is going to the expense of supplying a very special aftermarket separate clock, it deserves a dedicated power supply.

[Superdad]

38 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

So then you can experiment with using that supply to power both

Well the main thing is that using the same PSU (or one with common -VE/0-volt “ground”) to power both clock and EtherREGEN is that will defeat our active-differential-isolation moat.

Power to the EtherREGEN is to the ‘A’ side domain (‘B’ side gets power over isolating converter) and the BNC of the clock input is in ‘B’ domain. 

[emailists]

thanks for the input.  Funny thing is many of us used to think LP playback was too tweaky, and now it’s clear digital is way more tweaky.

[LewinskiH01]

I'm considering optical connection between my eRs vs LPS upstream as a next move and would  appreciate input from more experienced users.

 

Current setup: internet service provider's router with SMPS > CAT6 > eR1 (with stock SMPS) A-side > B-side > CAT6 > eR2 (with LPS1.2) A-side > B-side > CAT8 > audioPC > USB > DAC.

 

From John's posts I learnt the SMPS feeding the router is likely injecting DC into eR1 and while the eR does a good job of reducing it significantly, some users have found that removing DC leakage completely upstream let's the eR perform even better. So I could block DC leakage into eR2 thru optical connection between eR1 and eR2, or fit the router with an LPS and prevent leakage to be generated in the first place. I believe using the LPS on eR1 wouldn't bring much improvement as Uptone stock SMPS doesn't inject DC leakage, so fitting eR1 with the LPS is likely to provide a smaller improvement vs dedicating it to the router.

 

The LPS MartinT suggested is relatively cheap vs 2 optical modules + fiber, so wanted to get feedback about the performance improvement I should expect from one option vs the other.

 

Thank you!

[Billy_SP]

On 2/18/2022 at 11:21 AM, Superdad said:

At 9V the EtherREGEN draws 1.0A; at 12V it draws about 0.8A.  That difference should not matter at all to your P8 as it rated to a much higher output current capacity.

And the EtherREGEN will perform the same with either voltage.

In my system, the eR at 9V produces a sound with more body, more meat on the bones.  At 12V it has more detail. My system is already very detailed, so I chose 9V.  The other factor are my amps, they are neutral warmish, but class D, so a warmish full bodied sound was a more desirable fit.

 

My system: Fiber + Finisar SFP module, SOtM SNH10g with external clock and LPSU, eR with external clock and LPSU, Innuos Zenith MK3, Uptose IsoRegen + LPSU, Verity Audio Monsalvat Pre/DAC 2, MBL N15 Monoblocks, MBL 116 speakers.

[Encore]

6 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

I'm considering optical connection between my eRs vs LPS upstream as a next move and would  appreciate input from more experienced users.

 

Current setup: internet service provider's router with SMPS > CAT6 > eR1 (with stock SMPS) A-side > B-side > CAT6 > eR2 (with LPS1.2) A-side > B-side > CAT8 > audioPC > USB > DAC.

 

From John's posts I learnt the SMPS feeding the router is likely injecting DC into eR1 and while the eR does a good job of reducing it significantly, some users have found that removing DC leakage completely upstream let's the eR perform even better. So I could block DC leakage into eR2 thru optical connection between eR1 and eR2, or fit the router with an LPS and prevent leakage to be generated in the first place. I believe using the LPS on eR1 wouldn't bring much improvement as Uptone stock SMPS doesn't inject DC leakage, so fitting eR1 with the LPS is likely to provide a smaller improvement vs dedicating it to the router.

 

The LPS MartinT suggested is relatively cheap vs 2 optical modules + fiber, so wanted to get feedback about the performance improvement I should expect from one option vs the other.

 

Thank you!

I have had the same thought  (also have two eR's). I'm a complete novice when it comes to optical. Do I need more than an fiber cable to connect the two eR's?

[ericuco]

48 minutes ago, Encore said:

Do I need more than an fiber cable to connect the two eR's?

You will need a pair of SFP modules (transceivers) that plug into the SFP ports.

[GryphonGuy]

6 hours ago, Encore said:

I have had the same thought  (also have two eR's). I'm a complete novice when it comes to optical. Do I need more than an fiber cable to connect the two eR's?

 

A lot of our collective testing in the early days of ER showed us that single-mode fiber (usually yellow in colour) with 1310nm wavelength SFP modules was a clear winner in SQ terms (for reasons unknown but the difference is not subtle). The most common connection of the fiber to the SFP module is LC-LC (locking connection both ends). Since then I think a handful of people have found some very niche brands and wavelengths to be marginally better but certainly this combination of Single-mode 1310nm is a great place to start (and for me I see no reason to experiment further as the results in my network and system are just stunning).

 

Regards

GG

[R1200CL]

On 3/16/2022 at 10:13 PM, barrows said:

It is a compromise to power a separate clock with the same power supply used for the eR...  the noise made by the eR will, to some degree, be fed back into the power supply and show up on the power rails feeding the clock.  If one is going to the expense of supplying a very special aftermarket separate clock, it deserves a dedicated power supply.

 

On 3/16/2022 at 10:51 PM, Superdad said:

Well the main thing is that using the same PSU (or one with common -VE/0-volt “ground”) to power both clock and EtherREGEN is that will defeat our active-differential-isolation moat.

Power to the EtherREGEN is to the ‘A’ side domain (‘B’ side gets power over isolating converter) and the BNC of the clock input is in ‘B’ domain. 

You are of cause both correct. 
My answer was to @emailists that a clock make a more noticeable upgrade than a PS to the EtherRegen. But the AfterDark must have a very good power supply. 
 

I’m also suggesting that braking the moat may not do to much harm given a very good PS is used, and it’s worth experimenting with vs using the supplied SMPS. 
 

Good power supply candidates is used Paul Hynes SR4T and Uptone LPS 1.2

New options is Uptone JS-2, and probably Farad. Not sure if Barrow make PS anymore ?
 

Since AliExpress was suggested as PS for EtherRegen, I bought this one myself. I won’t expect it to be at the top level. But it ought to do a decent job. I replaced it with a talema transformer and  ordered LT3045 version. 
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002207035576.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.1b183c00L6Ec3w&mp=1

 

 

 

[barrows]

1 hour ago, R1200CL said:

Barrow make PS anymore

Yes, I make the Sonore Power Supply for Sonore.  We make a standard version that is 7 VDC output @ 1.5 A max continuous (much more peak current is available).  We can also make custom voltages: a 12 VDC version @ 2A max continuous is available via special order, and other voltages are possible via special order.  These are very good linear power supplies, with discrete voltage regulation.

 

[Superdad]

7 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I replaced it with a talema transformer and  ordered LT3045 version. 

Great. Another company sucking up the world's limited supply of LT3045 regs.  No wonder the 2,000 pieces I just ordered won't ship until July or August...

If that inexpensive mystery-company Chinese supply really does have six genuine LT3045s (6 x 500mA to get 3A), that's $30 of regs right there.

[Given that the dealers must make a profit, plus cost of case, PCB, transformer, etc., I guess they don't pay their assemblers more than a few dollars a day.]

[LewinskiH01]

8 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Since AliExpress was suggested as PS for EtherRegen, I bought this one myself. I won’t expect it to be at the top level. But it ought to do a decent job. I replaced it with a talema transformer and  ordered LT3045 version. 
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002207035576.html?spm=a2g0o.cart.0.0.1b183c00L6Ec3w&mp=1

 

I was looking into the LPS MartinT suggested as alternative to LPS1.2 and the one you linked also looks interesting. While it's not as powerful at 3A vs 4A for GZLozone, the one you quoted states 0.2uV ripple vs 1V for GZLozone vs 0.8uV for LPS1.2. On the other hand it seems to have less capacitance at 39200uF vs 101200uF (0.1F) for GZLozone vs the impressive 60F for LPS1.2. Too bad I can't insert tables here...

 

Did you order the unit with a Talema or replaced the transformer you received with a Talema?

[barrows]

2 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

the one you quoted states 0.2uV ripple

Is this a Chinese made product, that is almost certainly bullshit.  Do not trust any "specs" you get from random Chinese manufacturers who sell via places like aliexpress.  If it seems to good to be true, it is, and if it is Chinese it is way worse than that.  @Superdad was being very reserved and nice above!  

[MikePid]

10 hours ago, barrows said:

Yes, I make the Sonore Power Supply for Sonore.  We make a standard version that is 7 VDC output @ 1.5 A max continuous (much more peak current is available).  We can also make custom voltages: a 12 VDC version @ 2A max continuous is available via special order, and other voltages are possible via special order.  These are very good linear power supplies, with discrete voltage regulation.

I can vouch for this LPS 😀 with the EtherREGEN.  I initially bought it for my ultraRendu and got a PH-SR4T for the ER.  Long story (grounding issues) but I ended up swapping them around.  I ordered the Sonore LPS with the SR Blue fuse option.

 

I didn't know about the custom voltages, so I'll keep that in mind for future upgrades.

[MikePid]

Another low-cost LPS option would be TeraDak.  Yeah, Chinese and inexpensive, but they've been around for a while.  I purchased their Mac Mini M1 LPS upgrade kit, which came with a 200W 12v LPS (way overkill for the MMM1!).  I use the MMM1 as a Roon Core/HQPlayer machine.  I haven't tried swapping in my PH-SR4T to see how much of a difference it would make, but I did replace the stock TeraDak fuse with an Orange fuse after a couple of weeks, which made a worthwhile difference.  

[R1200CL]

14 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Did you order the unit with a Talema or replaced the transformer you received with a Talema?

Ordered with, as that’s an option offered. I’m using mine to power the Sonictransporter. 

[emailists]

Any cheap clock upgrades suggested? I’d love to go with an after dark clock but finances are tight right now.  

[Billy_SP]

10 minutes ago, emailists said:

Any cheap clock upgrades suggested? I’d love to go with an after dark clock but finances are tight right now.  

I think you should wait and save your money.  Could not find anything worthy of the effort.   If you have the eR, go for the Queen when you are ready. 

[LewinskiH01]

On 3/17/2022 at 8:25 AM, LewinskiH01 said:

I'm considering optical connection between my eRs vs LPS upstream as a next move and would  appreciate input from more experienced users.

 

Current setup: internet service provider's router with SMPS > CAT6 > eR1 (with stock SMPS) A-side > B-side > CAT6 > eR2 (with LPS1.2) A-side > B-side > CAT8 > audioPC > USB > DAC.

 

From John's posts I learnt the SMPS feeding the router is likely injecting DC into eR1 and while the eR does a good job of reducing it significantly, some users have found that removing DC leakage completely upstream let's the eR perform even better. So I could block DC leakage into eR2 thru optical connection between eR1 and eR2, or fit the router with an LPS and prevent leakage to be generated in the first place. I believe using the LPS on eR1 wouldn't bring much improvement as Uptone stock SMPS doesn't inject DC leakage, so fitting eR1 with the LPS is likely to provide a smaller improvement vs dedicating it to the router.

 

The LPS MartinT suggested is relatively cheap vs 2 optical modules + fiber, so wanted to get feedback about the performance improvement I should expect from one option vs the other.

 

Thank you!

 

Seems there aren't strong enough opinions linking both eR2 thru fibre vs an LPS for the upstream router. Maybe I try with cheap optic modules I can get locally which would be cheaper than an LPS.

 

Looking at prior posts, folks had good results with single-mode fiber and Finisar 1310nm modules, noting FTLF1318P2XCL and FTLF124P2BTL. Can't find those around here, but see cheap FTLF1323P1BTR, also 1310nm. Do these seem like good options? To be used with OS2 fiber.

[R1200CL]

5 hours ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Can't find those around here

Use 1421

[LewinskiH01]

9 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Use 1421

Those are $160 each, in the US, plus importation. At that price I'd rather try an LPS that has various alternative applications.

 

I was asking about cheaper options. What are key specs to look at, beyond 1310nm?

[R1200CL]

9 minutes ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Those are $160 each, in the US, plus importation. At that price I'd rather try an LPS that has various alternative applications.

Can be found cheap on eBay. 

[Discopants]

Yesterday I had fibre ISP installed to my property which came with a new router and a SMPS and also the ONT box has a little SMPS. 
 

my previous router I have also running on SMPS. Everything else remains the same.

 

15m of cat 6a to a cisco 2960 8 port non gigabyte version. I use the SFP out to ER and a chinese BGTL clock. Linear power supplies on ER and clock an Oyaide word clock cable and audioquest vodka out to a Lyngdorf 3400. Isotek sigmas power conditioner feeds ER, clock, amp apple tv4k and my TV. The cisco doesnt sit on the isotek. I have DIY power cords and orange and blue fuses throughout.

 

the noise floor since switching to fibre ISP is much lower, that is either the router being quieter or its power supply being better or its the change from copper to fibre or a combination of all 3. I will never know but my system has never sounded better. I still have my copper ISP in place and have left it plugged in so I can A to B the delta is very clearly audible.

 

YMMV

 

I stream qobuz and youtube (apple TV just feeds out from the cisco via chord C stream to apple tv4k and even that sounds amazing without seeing the ER)

 

I have my whole system very well isolated from mechanical vibrations with lots of black ravioli products and copious use of fo.q tape. I have a coherent RTZ 1 with 4 leads to the Lyngdorf and a few other grounding tweaks elsewhere plus lots of other tweaks.