EtherREGEN: Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions thread

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, econaut said:

router -> copper ethernet -> ether regen -> fibre -> opticalRendu -> USB -> DAC

 

I "only" need to get an opticalRendu and an LPSU in order to fix my network issues with fibre and get better sound quality along the way :)

Sounds like an excellent plan. If you can find a opticalRendu 😉

[Steve Bruzonsky]

I got my Etherregen in the first batch, and did the first firmware upgrade. I don't follow this thread, but recenlty looked at it and sounds like there may be a more current firmware for my Etherregen. If so, how do I get it? Thanks.

[Superdad]

18 minutes ago, Steve Bruzonsky said:

I got my Etherregen in the first batch, and did the first firmware upgrade. I don't follow this thread, but recenlty looked at it and sounds like there may be a more current firmware for my Etherregen. If so, how do I get it? Thanks.

Hi Steve:

Just drop me a note via our Contact Us page (so that I then have your current e-mail address). I can then send you the December 2020 firmware (which is already in all EtherREGENs shipped January 1, 2021 to December 31, 2021).

But unless you are having a rare problem, there is no need for this newer file. (Whereas the November 2019 units definitely all need the firmware update you got from the web--and which was installed on all units from December 1, 2019 to December 31, 2020.) 

Best,

--Alex C.

[Steve Bruzonsky]

17 hours ago, Superdad said:

Hi Steve:

Just drop me a note via our Contact Us page (so that I then have your current e-mail address). I can then send you the December 2020 firmware (which is already in all EtherREGENs shipped January 1, 2021 to December 31, 2021).

But unless you are having a rare problem, there is no need for this newer file. (Whereas the November 2019 units definitely all need the firmware update you got from the web--and which was installed on all units from December 1, 2019 to December 31, 2020.) 

Best,

--Alex C.

 

Thanks

[daverich4]

Is there an ETA on when (or if) the next batch of EtherREGENS will be available? Thanks.

[Superdad]

17 minutes ago, daverich4 said:

Is there an ETA on when (or if) the next batch of EtherREGENS will be available? Thanks.

Afraid not.  The major redesign of it--using an FPGA instead of a ASIC as the main Ethernet switch chip--is taking a lot of time because:

a) The switch core ("cores" are licensable or open-source pre-written code sets for FPGAs) we have chosen was written for unavailable Altera FPGAs and John's porting of that core to the FPGA platform we have chosen is taking extra time;

b) The advanced Efinix Titanium FPGA series we have chosen (the ones fast enough for our application) are just now becoming available in production quantities (though lead time quotes have become extended as a lot of large companies have rushed to Efinix during this Altera & Xilinx drought).

 

In addition, most of the most advanced voltage regulator parts we like (both DC-DC micro-modules and LT3045/42 LDOs) are also in very short supply.  I must have $60K of speculatively placed advance orders out with DigiKey/Mouser/Arrow/Avnet for various parts with 2023 delivery dates. 

 

Still, there is a good chance we will have some breakthroughs this summer and might have EtherREGEN Gen. 2 in production by the end of the year.  Sure hope so as there is still a lot of demand and the sales train has ground to a halt!

 

JS-2s are in stock though, and we are working on some other surprises as well.

Cheers,

--Alex C.

 

P.S. One thing to look forward to with EtherREGEN Gen. 2 will be that the 'B' side port will be Gigabit capable. The architecture changes to the design--as well as the availability of higher speed digital isolators--will now permit that. 

[daverich4]

Thanks for the detailed response. Something to look forward to at any rate.

[Markus8]

@SuperdadWill this new release / generation feature what you think is the best iteration of the ER, also in comparison or taking into account what approaches other brands have come up with in the meantime?

[econaut]

21 minutes ago, Markus8 said:

@SuperdadWill this new release / generation feature what you think is the best iteration of the ER, also in comparison or taking into account what approaches other brands have come up with in the meantime?

What approaches / brands are you referring to in particular? Just curious :)

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Markus8 said:

@SuperdadWill this new release / generation feature what you think is the best iteration of the ER, also in comparison or taking into account what approaches other brands have come up with in the meantime?

 

That's two questions in one sentence so I'll break my answer into two:

 

A) While we will continue to use the best techniques possible (all differential clocking lines, ultra-low-jitter 10GHz-capable reclocking flip-flops, a dozen LT3045/42 voltage regulators, etc.), no SQ comparison between the first generation EtherREGEN and generation 2 is yet possible as the boards are still in prototype stage (getting Ethernet switch core fully running on Efinix FPGA platform must take place before we can move to next steps of boards with isolation and multi-clock synthesis).

 

B) What approaches might that be? (besides fancy cases and 2X to 5X prices). I have looked carefully at the boards and designs of nearly every other audiophile Ethernet switch offering (including the latest $3,200 Nordost QNET) and have yet to see anything beyond nice clocking and power supplies.  No other firm has yet attempted to perform our trick of active differential isolation of Ethernet across an air-gap "moat."  That's why you see people daisy-chaining multiple switches together--as an attempt to replicate what we offer in one simple, affordable box. 

[R1200CL]

Alex.
 

Are you utilizing this nice expensive OCXO clock mentioned somewhere else in the new switch design, and if yes, will we then rather see a switch with clock out instead of in ?

 

Still no fiber B-side I presume ?

[econaut]

Well, I got my opticalRendu in today and after just four songs I had a droput. Then I switched the custom ethernet cable to a standard one. Listening music for several hours was fine. But now I got a dropout again. I had the bad feeling this new setup would not stop the dropouts from happening 😥

 

Since the cheap FMC is out now and the SOtM streamer as well, the only remaining parts between the Router and the DAC are: Ether Regen, the two SFP modules and the fibre cable. I did not have dropouts when using the eR with copper ethernet.

 

Roon remote stated: "Audio file is loading slowly- this may indicate a performance or hardware problem." 44.1 kHz File was on the SSD of the Roon core, no streaming.

 

What now!?

 

Network setup below and Roon log file attached.

oR_dropout log.txt

[ericuco]

40 minutes ago, econaut said:

the only remaining parts between the Router and the DAC are: Ether Regen, the two SFP modules and the fibre cable

?? The oR is not in the path?

 

42 minutes ago, econaut said:

What now!?

I had periodic dropouts for years. Tried different switches, network configurations, music servers, etc. Finally solved dropout issue when I replaced oR (and since sold) with a fitlet2 (optical port, HQP NAA).  No dropouts since.

[econaut]

25 minutes ago, ericuco said:

?? The oR is not in the path?

 

I had periodic dropouts for years. Tried different switches, network configurations, music servers, etc. Finally solved dropout issue when I replaced oR (and since sold) with a fitlet2 (optical port, HQP NAA).  No dropouts since.

 

Sorry, I meant the "old" components that are still in the setup and that could be causing the issue. I was writing about these problems the last one or two pages in this thread.

 

In the picture you can see the network setup, of course with the oR.

 

Well, I don't understand why some people have problems with fibre and some don't, even with the same devices (eR + oR, for example). Can it be the SFP modules? Are there more problems with single mode than with multi mode? Do different LPSUs have an effect besides sound?

[StreamFidelity]

9 hours ago, econaut said:

Roon remote stated: "Audio file is loading slowly- this may indicate a performance or hardware problem." 44.1 kHz File was on the SSD of the Roon core, no streaming.

 

A FritzBox router is not good at working as a switch at the same time. It makes more sense to use the switch to power all audio components.

 

Specifically, try connecting the Windows PC to the A-side of the ER. 😉

[econaut]

15 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

A FritzBox router is not good at working as a switch at the same time. It makes more sense to use the switch to power all audio components.

 

Specifically, try connecting the Windows PC to the A-side of the ER. 😉

Interesting. Why is that? Can you please explain?

 

I have two doubts / questions about this:

 

1. I don't have these dropouts when using copper ethernet. So it should not be the Fritz!Box that is causing them.

2. Connecting two devices on the A side of the Ether Regen (optical Rendu and Windows PC) would defeat the isolation moat of the eR and make the device obsolete.

 

I do also have (had?) network reachability events in the Roon logs. This seems to be a different thing than the droputs. Maybe my ISP or the Fritz!Box is causing this. It's difficult for me to get as clue of of this. I try to fix the dropouts first, because I believe these two things are not related. But maybe I am wrong on this.

[econaut]

Basically what it comes down to IMHO is this:

 

What causes the dropouts?

 

Premise:

• components that are both in the old setup (FMC -> ER -> SOtM) and the new setup (ER -> oR)
• having experienced that the dropouts were drastically reduced / almost disappeared when using copper ethernet (there was only one dropout in about a week) I don't think it's the components neighbouring the fibre connection (router and DAC, that is).

So the possible causes:

1. Ether Regen when using fibre? (no matter if A->B or B->A, dropouts are occuring in both directions)
2. using single mode instead of multi mode? anyone any experience with that?
3. the SFP Modules (maybe dirty / faulty, because I got them used?)
4. the fibre cable (got it new, don't think so)
5. RAAT protocol with fibre in general (don't think so, because I talked to at least one guy who does not have problems with oR and ER combination and there would be more people that have problems, I guess)

Possible solutions:

• getting an opticalModule - maybe it's more stable than the Ether Regen? I doubt it, though.
• I might try HQPlayer again, maybe the NAA protocol is more stable than RAAT over fibre?
• getting multi mode SFP modules and a multi mode cable. Sound quality is worse, though. I had this just for a few of days, until someone in this thread recommended going single mode. Definitively worth it! Can't remember if there were any dropouts.

[StreamFidelity]

4 hours ago, econaut said:

Interesting. Why is that? Can you please explain?

 

I have two doubts / questions about this: ...

 

You can of course continue to philosophize about it or just give it a try. 😉

 

Background of my consideration is that a FritzBox doesn't have the best qualitative components. There are many tasks to perform at the same time: Router, DHCP server, WLAN, DECT, etc. Therefore it is better to simplify the data path. So build your audiophile network. 

 

The B-side filters the interference coming from the router. I find it unusual, because normally the B-side should point to the audio endpoint. But you have implemented galvanic isolation via fiber and that only works with the A-side. If you connect the Windows PC to the A-side, this route is still isolated via fiber to oR. 

 

More thoughts can be found here: Audio PC Network

[econaut]

@StreamFidelity

 

Many thanks. Reading your website I take your experience in this field seriously and learnt quite a lot. Many upgrades more on my shortlist now 🤯

 

As far as I understand there are two kinds of electrical noise. One is blocked by optical fibre, the other is not. That's what the Ether Regen's MOAT is for even when using optical fibre. But right now I am trying to get a stable audio network with fibre, so audio quality is not my first priority, but stability is.

 

So I connected my Windows PC with Roon core also to the A side of the ER as you recommend and will evaluate. See pic1 below.

 

I see now that building a separate audio network and "unloading" the Fritz!Box from unnecessary tasks might be a good idea. Especially since @Superdad stated something about RAAT needing extreme low latencies a few months ago in this thread. I wonder what changes in a network increase latency and what improvements can be done to reduce latency?

 

I also have an unsused TP-Link switch that I might add (pic2). Good idea or rather not?

 

One possible upgrade path would be adding an opticalModule, being able to use the ER MOAT again, see pic3. What do you think of that?

 

I especially wonder about decreasing or increasing latency in pic2 and pic3.

The question of linear power supplies would come in last, only after I have found a stable audio network system.

 

 

[econaut]

I added the cheap TP-Link switch now (pic2 in the post above) and it sounds much better than setup in pic1. Probably because A and B is correctly isolated by the moat again. I was listening to music for quite some time now and did not have a dropout. But too soon to judge...

[StreamFidelity]

12 hours ago, econaut said:

Many thanks. Reading your website I take your experience in this field seriously and learnt quite a lot. Many upgrades more on my shortlist now

 

You're welcome, even if I unfortunately contributed to further costs. 😆

Ethernet is a rabbit hole and the situation is different for everyone. The only thing that helps is to try it out for yourself. 

 

12 hours ago, econaut said:

I especially wonder about decreasing or increasing latency in pic2 and pic3.

 

For fiber I recommend for example Solarflare NICs with extremely low latencies and jitter. I'd like to leave it at that, since I'm in the EtherREGEN thread.

[econaut]

Adding the cheap switch seems to make a difference as I did not have a dropout since Thursday night and I listened to music many hours every day. So I believe this is an improvement, because normally there would have been more dropouts - but it could also be merely coincidence, although rather unlikely, I think.

 

Unfortunately, I just had a droput again (log file 11:57).

 

I will further observe and try to get help in the Roon forums in order to interpret the log file. I would have hoped that the disconnect might have been on Qobuz's site, but the log file does not show this, I think.

 

 

[zoltan]

My story with similar dropouts is so long that I won't even start telling the full story. It involved months of e-mail exchanges with SOtM (my streamer is the SMS-200 ultra), even taking the unit to the Munich High-End show where SOtM checked it and demod with it for 4 days without any issues. Trying all possible settings, both Roon and HQ Player, etc. Then I moved house, in fact, I moved to a different continent. The same problem appeared/disappeared on a regular basis. I spent at least a hundred hours of reading on forums and trying different things, including several switches. It seems to work with a Zyxel switch, no problem but often lost connection when I used a D-Link. So I settled on the Zyxel. About a year ago, I bought a ER and shortly after I installed it, problems started again. Experiments with different power supplies, grounding the ER, etc didn't solve the issue. Eventually, I thought why not try what Uptone recommends (among HQ Player developer Jussi and dSC engineers) and use exclusively ethernet cables where the connectors are galvanically isolated (either because the cable is not shielded or the shield is not connected to the metal connector). For about 4-5 months now, zero issues. From my router to my server, to the switch, etc, all cables have "lifted" connectors or not shielded in the first place. 

[Mike Rubin]

1 hour ago, zoltan said:

My story with similar dropouts is so long that I won't even start telling the full story. It involved months of e-mail exchanges with SOtM (my streamer is the SMS-200 ultra), even taking the unit to the Munich High-End show where SOtM checked it and demod with it for 4 days without any issues. Trying all possible settings, both Roon and HQ Player, etc. Then I moved house, in fact, I moved to a different continent. The same problem appeared/disappeared on a regular basis. I spent at least a hundred hours of reading on forums and trying different things, including several switches. It seems to work with a Zyxel switch, no problem but often lost connection when I used a D-Link. So I settled on the Zyxel. About a year ago, I bought a ER and shortly after I installed it, problems started again. Experiments with different power supplies, grounding the ER, etc didn't solve the issue. Eventually, I thought why not try what Uptone recommends (among HQ Player developer Jussi and dSC engineers) and use exclusively ethernet cables where the connectors are galvanically isolated (either because the cable is not shielded or the shield is not connected to the metal connector). For about 4-5 months now, zero issues. From my router to my server, to the switch, etc, all cables have "lifted" connectors or not shielded in the first place. 

My cables are CAT 6 from NUC to router to switch to wall plate, then lifted ground CAT 8 to the ER, and then optical to Sonore Rendu. I don't think I have ground issues in this signal path. 

 

As new HQPlayer versions come out, I find that it is easier to run more demanding modulators and filters without choking the NUC, so I have been pushing my settings harder. I now can listen for a few hours without routine stuttering or dropouts, but I still get the random ones, for 10-15 seconds each, during longer listening sessions.  When I bypass HQPlayer and stream directly from JRiver on my desktop without DSP, I haven't noticed any dropouts, ever.

 

My conclusion is that my occasional dropouts most likely are a result of HQPlayer's DSP processes and my NUC being pushed to the edge. Of course, that could be confusing correlation and causation, but it is pretty repeatable. 

 

Short of reverting to the most undemanding DSP settings in HQPlayer, I suspect that at least occasional dropouts just are the price I pay for taking advantage of HQPlayer's positive qualities. 

[elan120]

50 minutes ago, Mike Rubin said:

When I bypass HQPlayer and stream directly from JRiver on my desktop without DSP, I haven't noticed any dropouts, ever.

Just curious, what happened if you don't do upsampling with HQPlayer?  Do you still have dropouts?