EtherREGEN: Installation, Usage, Difficulty, Questions thread

[Markus8]

On 11/26/2022 at 9:13 AM, Markus8 said:

@SuperdadA short question: I currently have placed the ER directly on top of the Keces P8. In your view is this problematic or ok?

Any update on that?

 

And one other question: is it better to use the 1GB or 10GB Ethernet slot on my QNAP NAS?

[agisthos]

17 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

That is not ideal.  Best performance from EtherREGEN is always to have whatever is your DAC-attached computer/streamer/renderer endpoint (or Ethernet-input-equipped DAC) ALONE on one side of its 'A' / 'B' active-differential-isolation moat (typically the 'B' side as there is only the one port there).

 

So in your case you would attach to the 'A' side ports your network feed (from router is just fine), your NAS, and your TV.  To the lone 'B' port connect your streamer.

 

I know that, but I also want the TV to benefit from the Etherregen, when accessing content from the NAS for videophile watching. This means the NAS should be on the other side of the moat, correct?

 

If so, that means NAS on B, and Streamer & TV on A. And hoping the TV, when not in use, does not pass noise onto side A where the streamer also is...

[audiobomber]

1 hour ago, agisthos said:

 

I know that, but I also want the TV to benefit from the Etherregen, when accessing content from the NAS for videophile watching. This means the NAS should be on the other side of the moat, correct?

 

If so, that means NAS on B, and Streamer & TV on A. And hoping the TV, when not in use, does not pass noise onto side A where the streamer also is...

My system is connected as suggested by Superdad,

- Router, NAS, TV and Chromecast Audio, are connected to the A-side.

- My streamer/music renderer is connected to the B-side.

 

The TV and Chromecast Audio are used for my YouTube Music subscription. Both devices are connected to my main DAC via S/PDIF. When I acquired the EtherREGEN, sound from YouTube took a significant jump in sound quality, so the ethernet connection from the ER A-side is helping, quite a lot. (I later added an iFi iPurifier SPDIF and linear power supply, which provided further improvement in SQ, but that's another story.)

[sjj]

@Superdadis there an update on when the new ER will be available?

[Pokey77]

1 hour ago, sjj said:

@Superdadis there an update on when the new ER will be available?

Been wondering this myself. I do see the website notes April 2023.

[Liam]

With the EtherREGEN is there any sonic advantage to feeding it with a 12v 4amps power supply as against a 12volt 2amp version of the same respected product?  I know the EtherREGEN draws 0.8amp at 12volts. I’m thinking dynamically, peaks etc.?

[audiobomber]

6 hours ago, Liam said:

With the EtherREGEN is there any sonic advantage to feeding it with a 12v 4amps power supply as against a 12volt 2amp version of the same respected product?  I know the EtherREGEN draws 0.8amp at 12volts. I’m thinking dynamically, peaks etc.?

IME, yes. I tried a 12V 50W (2A) Zero-Zone and found the bass too loose. The 12V 4A version was a clear improvement. I will say however, that the internals of these two are quite different, the 4A version is almost twice the size, with a lot more caps, overpressure protection (?) and I don't know what else. 

[Superdad]

7 hours ago, Liam said:

With the EtherREGEN is there any sonic advantage to feeding it with a 12v 4amps power supply as against a 12volt 2amp version of the same respected product?  I know the EtherREGEN draws 0.8amp at 12volts. I’m thinking dynamically, peaks etc.?

A 2A power supply is more than plenty for an EtherREGEN.  What matters much more that max current capability—or even low-noise performance since the EtherREGEN has a dozen LT3045/42 regs handling final local regulation—is very low output impedance. Digital devices constantly draw current in extremely short bursts. So it is the ability to respond instantaneously not high current capability that matters most. 
That said, even the same manufacturer’s two versions of LPS—say a 2A and a 4A—will have differences in output impedance due to a variety of choices from input to output (transformer, diodes, pre-regulation capacitance, voltage regulator choice and paralleling method, post reg capacitance, etc…).

 

3 hours ago, audiobomber said:

IME, yes. I tried a 12V 50W (2A) Zero-Zone and found the bass too loose. The 12V 4A version was a clear improvement. I will say however, that the internals of these two are quite different, the 4A version is almost twice the size, with a lot more caps, overpressure protection (?) and I don't know what else. 

No offense, but I would caution against generalizing based on those supplies.  I have Zerozone and Studer and other inexpensive Chinese LPS units here and none of them have very low broadband output impedance (particularly large hump in impedance at low frequency). So whatever differences you hear between the sizes is most assuredly not due to amperage capability. Likely just brute capacitance differences—though such is not a panacea or substitute for a really smart and low output impedance design.

 

And just as an aside: How can they refer to a 12V/2A unit as being a 50W supply? V*A=W so that’s a 24W supply. 

 

Conversely, I’ve also tested—and posted photographic proof years ago here on the forum—demonstrating how Zerozone units are not able to deliver their rated output current (only did so because someone sent me one that they were trying to use to “energize”/charge one of our UltraCap units).

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/29482-ultracap™-lps-1-troubleshooting-system-grounding-etc/?do=findComment&comment=611034

[Liam]

4 hours ago, audiobomber said:

IME, yes. I tried a 12V 50W (2A) Zero-Zone and found the bass too loose. The 12V 4A version was a clear improvement. I will say however, that the internals of these two are quite different, the 4A version is almost twice the size, with a lot more caps, overpressure protection (?) and I don't know what else. 

Thanks audiobomber.  Yes the two devices are very different.  Superdad's response certainly illuminates the requirements.

[Mihaylov]

3 hours ago, Superdad said:

And just as an aside: How can they refer to a 12V/2A unit as being a 50W supply? V*A=W so that’s a 24W supply. 

Alex, it's that simple. For example, there is a transformer with a capacity of 50 W, and the maximum load current is declared as 2 A at 12 V. And this is correct so that it does not turn out as you described in that old message ;) . 

Here is an example of such a lot.

In my experience, usually transformers in such power supplies do not withstand the maximum load that transformers should provide based on their declared power (usually from saving on secondary winding ;)).

[audiobomber]

11 minutes ago, Mihaylov said:

Alex, it's that simple. For example, there is a transformer with a capacity of 50 W, and the maximum load current is declared as 2 A at 12 V. And this is correct so that it does not turn out as you described in that old message ;) . 

Here is an example of such a lot.

In my experience, usually transformers in such power supplies do not withstand the maximum load that transformers should provide based on their declared power (usually from saving on secondary winding ;)).

The 50W figure is quoted in the sales ad. No amperage was specified when I ordered the unit, so I inquired and was told 2A. I've heard that one should go at least 15% higher when going from SMPS to LPS. I always go well above the required amperage. 

[Liam]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

A 2A power supply is more than plenty for an EtherREGEN.  What matters much more that max current capability—or even low-noise performance since the EtherREGEN has a dozen LT3045/42 regs handling final local regulation—is very low output impedance. Digital devices constantly draw current in extremely short bursts. So it is the ability to respond instantaneously not high current capability that matters most. 
That said, even the same manufacturer’s two versions of LPS—say a 2A and a 4A—will have differences in output impedance due to a variety of choices from input to output (transformer, diodes, pre-regulation capacitance, voltage regulator choice and paralleling method, post reg capacitance, etc…).

 

Thanks so much for expanding my knowledge of the pertinent power requirements of the EtherREGEN.  The manufacturer of the two power supplies since did confirm that the 2amp version would be good (adequate?) for the EtherREGEN.  Now I know that the requirements aren't so straight forward as I thought.   

[JohnSwenson]

The power transformer rating and what you get out of a linear supply depend a lot on how much capacitance after the diode bridge. The diodes (and hence the transformer) only conduct when the voltage from the diodes is above the voltage capacitor(s). If the cap is large the voltage doesn't droop very much under the load, thus current only flows from the transformer short spurts when the AC waveform from the transformer is at its peak. But since this is only for a short period of times the current during this spurt is many times greater than the average current through the transformer.

 

Lets say you have a transformer rated for 1A, and you have a large capacitor after the bridge you can easily wind up with 10A pulses. Guess how well that 1A transformer does when it is trying to produce 10A spurts -- not very well! And it is getting worse all the time. Back in the 1950s they built transformers with magnetic circuits that were fairly robust, they might actually be able to just barely handle that 10A pulse. But not transformers today. For cost purposes the magnetic components of transformers are WAY less robust than what they used to be, that 1A transformer MIGHT be able to do 2A pulses on a good day, but certainly not 10A. 

 

The net result is that you typically need several times higher current rating of the transformer for a particular  DC output.

 

John S.

[Mihaylov]

17 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

The net result is that you typically need several times higher current rating of the transformer for a particular  DC output.

That's not entirely true. The capacity of the transformer is calculated using the formula below (sorry, but I only have the Russian translation of this wonderful book).

That is, the power of the transformer Pn should only be about 20% (if you neglect the small voltage drop on the diodes Ud compared to the output voltage Ua) exceed the output power of the power supply.
The problem is that the voltage on the secondary winding of the transformers on some Chinese transformers is indicated in idle mode, and not in the rated load mode.  And the voltage in the rated load mode can drop greatly compared to the idle voltage due to the high resistance of the secondary winding (for example, the small diameter of the secondary winding wire due to copper savings).
Therefore, it is necessary to choose the power of such Chinese transformers with a large (double or more, in my experience) excess.

 

 

 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Mihaylov said:

The problem is that the voltage on the secondary winding of the transformers on some Chinese transformers is indicated in idle mode, and not in the rated load mode.  And the voltage in the rated load mode can drop greatly compared to the idle voltage due to the high resistance of the secondary winding (for example, the small diameter of the secondary winding wire due to copper savings).

 

That can happen also, and one needs to be clear with the trans manufacturer about if the secondary voltage they are winding to is loaded or unloaded--and what that load is and with what AC mains input voltage.  But mostly when a trans is rated for say 24V @3A that is what it will deliver under steady load, and unloaded voltage will be a good bit higher.

 

But all that and what you wrote--and the matter of Chinese LPS units that don't deliver their rated current--completely miss the point of what John was explaining.  That is, when a design puts massive capacitance after the diode bridge, the current spikes back to the transformer are very large. At the crest of the waveform, flattening the peaks and causing ringing in the trans and harmonics back up the mains.  

Part of his point was that modern, low cost small transformers generally do not consider this and do not do well when a designer puts a large amount of capacitance right after the rectification; and for whatever reason this gets overlooked. (I was just looking at a Zerozone unit will 100,000uF (46pcs. of 2,200) with just an 80VA transformer. )

 

By the way, when I see reports of a popular LPS units being very sensitive to AC mains cords (and fuses), that is a good indication that the supply is kicking a lot of line frequency harmonics (60/120/180Hz,...) back into the wall--as the RLC of the power cord acts as a filter for what is going back the wall an effecting other gear.  

Power cords--unless they are of inadequate wire gauge for say a big power amp--are not "improving" what gets to the component (other than to the extent that their characteristics also "filter" line harmonics that OTHER components are putting into the wall), they are mostly dealing with the crap going back to the wall.

 

And to that point--and specifically the power supply's affect on the AC mains, putting harmonics back, flattening the peaks of the waveform by drawing in big spikes at the crest--there are ways to mitigate that.  Our own choke-filtered JS-2 is an example, as that design draws current over nearly the entire waveform--so it neither "flattens" the mains peaks no does it kick harmonics back into the wall.  It is about the only power-factor-corrected linear power supply on the market.  

An easy experiment to prove this:

Take one of those little Kill-A-Watt type meters (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E945SJG/) that have a Power Factor setting and plug a  typical power supply into it. PF will be about 0.45~0.50--so it is drawing current over only about 50% of the AC waveform.  Then plug a JS-2 in--and it will read about 0.97 as we are conducting over almost the entire waveform.  Oh, and with the 100VA R-core transformer a JS-2 can deliver 7.4A at 12V continuous. 

[Markus8]

@Superdad I have a Sonore OpticalModule Deluxe V2 connected to the EtherRegen via SFP. When I connected from A port the MUON Pro streaming system (supporting 1GB/s) to the LUMIN U2 Mini which is also 1GB/s compatible I see on the ER just one LED (the right one) blinking on the A Port slot.  Is this an indicator no 1GB/s is working or a general situation in the ER?

[Superdad]

20 minutes ago, Markus8 said:

@Superdad I have a Sonore OpticalModule Deluxe V2 connected to the EtherRegen via SFP. When I connected from A port the MUON Pro streaming system (supporting 1GB/s) to the LUMIN U2 Mini which is also 1GB/s compatible I see on the ER just one LED (the right one) blinking on the A Port slot.  Is this an indicator no 1GB/s is working or a general situation in the ER?

 

Hi Markus:

All is normal for you (at least with regards your EtherREGEN... ).

On the 'A' side of EtherREGEN only one LED will light over each port with an active connection. Amber (top-right) to indicate 1Gbps connection, green (top-left) to indicate 10/100Mbps connections.  

The 100Mbps-only 'B' side RJ45 port is different. The amber LED will generally light dimly with any connection, but it is the green LED that should be paid attention to as it indicates activity and connection.

Best,

--Alex C.

[Markus8]

Thank you @Superdad- glad to hear 😁

keeping fingers crossed to see Gigabit enabled B side Gen.2 soon 

[richard_crl032]

45 minutes ago, Markus8 said:

Thank you @Superdad- glad to hear 😁

keeping fingers crossed to see Gigabit enabled B side Gen.2 soon 

Hi Markus, How would gigabit improves sound quality ?

 

Yes, I sold my ER in anticipation of the gen 2 but more on looking forward to the incorporated sine to square clock functionality as I am having the sine version of AfterDark double crown Emperor without recommended filter by Uptone.

 

Will be good to know of any icing of having gen 2.

 

Cheers.

[Exocer]

2 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

Hi Markus, How would gigabit improves sound quality ?

 

Yes, I sold my ER in anticipation of the gen 2 but more on looking forward to the incorporated sine to square clock functionality as I am having the sine version of AfterDark double crown Emperor without recommended filter by Uptone.

 

Will be good to know of any icing of having gen 2.

 

Cheers.

 

I am hoping the sine to square wave functionality can be toggled on or off. My main clock is all square wave 😎.

[GryphonGuy]

Let me start by saying 100Mb/s networking is adequate for even 2ch 768kHz 32bit audio. It falls (just) under 50% of the 100Mb/s signal. So even if half-duplex connection exists (50Mb/s to the device and 50Mb/s away from the device) it should work but will inevitably have drop-outs. Full-duplex connections (the vast majority of today's networking and means 100Mb/s to the device and 100Mb/s away from the device) should work well unless you are trying to watch a video etc over that same physical connection.

 

Gigabit networking is now required by some audio equipment vendors, like Merging using the AES67 standard of networking over ethernet and Audinate the owner of Dante digital audio protocol over ethernet. The merging gear will not even load its networking inputs and outputs if it sees less than 1gb/s on its network port. A minority of products using Dante will limit the number of channels available over less than 1gb/s but most will either fail to connect or behave badly on less than 1gb/s connection.

 

So for me, the gigabit option is a no-brainer and now more of a requirement than a desire in my digital audio studio here.

 

Regards

GG

[GryphonGuy]

5 minutes ago, Exocer said:

 

I am hoping the sine to square wave functionality can be toggled on or off. My main clock is all square wave 😎.

 

One of my devices locks onto sine-wave clock signals but when fed a square wave it locks on just as well.

I think Superdad has already quelled this misunderstanding previously. So don't worry all will be well.

[richard_crl032]

1 hour ago, GryphonGuy said:

Let me start by saying 100Mb/s networking is adequate for even 2ch 768kHz 32bit audio. It falls (just) under 50% of the 100Mb/s signal. So even if half-duplex connection exists (50Mb/s to the device and 50Mb/s away from the device) it should work but will inevitably have drop-outs. Full-duplex connections (the vast majority of today's networking and means 100Mb/s to the device and 100Mb/s away from the device) should work well unless you are trying to watch a video etc over that same physical connection.

 

Gigabit networking is now required by some audio equipment vendors, like Merging using the AES67 standard of networking over ethernet and Audinate the owner of Dante digital audio protocol over ethernet. The merging gear will not even load its networking inputs and outputs if it sees less than 1gb/s on its network port. A minority of products using Dante will limit the number of channels available over less than 1gb/s but most will either fail to connect or behave badly on less than 1gb/s connection.

 

So for me, the gigabit option is a no-brainer and now more of a requirement than a desire in my digital audio studio here.

 

Regards

GG

Hi GG,

 

Tks for the teaching.

 

No mentioned AES67 or Dante for me whatever they are and seemingly no dropoff .. at least audible ones  ... with 768hz 32b or high res dsd experienced in my system with existing ERs but indeed no harm that I can understand with gigabit lan.

 

Cheers.

 

32bit x 76800Hz x 2 = 4915200bit/sec = 4.9152Mbps

 

 

[richard_crl032]

1 hour ago, GryphonGuy said:

I think Superdad has already quelled this misunderstanding previously. So don't worry all will be well.

Hi GG,

 

So there will be toggle on and off or it does not matter if already square wave clocking ?

 

Thanks and cheers.

 

Richard

[Iving]

9 hours ago, GryphonGuy said:

A minority of products using Dante will limit the number of channels available over less than 1gb/s but most will either fail to connect or behave badly on less than 1gb/s connection.

 

For many years, and thru many system iterations/improvements, I have had zero 100Mb/s issues in core Dante configuration PC > eR > RedNet D16 AES. Full system info in my profile.