ALLO USBridge Signature

[gstew]

@Tapatrick,

I have not and am sorry to sad I do not expect to do so soon.

3 reasons... first is that I'm REALLY happy with the sonics I'm getting in my 2 setups now. Since I wrote that comment in December 2019, I've:

- Tried some alternate Ethernet cables after the EtherRegen and settled on what I liked at first... the lowly Cat6 cable that came with my Baaske isolators (which came with a ferrite core around the cable near one end), a single Baaske isolator (pre-ER I had 2), and a 6" flat Cat6 from Amazon into my USBBridge Sigs. I did try all of the low-cost favs and none bettered this combo either separately or in conjunction with the Baaske isolator in my setups and to my ears. This setup just sounds more like music to me.

- Moved to newer model lower-ESR 325F UC pairs on the power feeds to the DACs and associated boards (Katana microprocessor board, Ian Canada FiFoPi) along with using LDOVR.com LT3045 regulator boards as the float-charging regulators when in-use. I still use Ian Canada's LT3042 reg boards pre-use for charge-up as I know they work safely at their native 250mA-300mA native current limit without additional heatsinking... just lazy here!

- Moved to 3000F(!) UC pairs on the power feed to the USBBridge Sigs. These of course take a hours to pre-charge at 300mA - 900mA, so when when I power-down the setups for an extended absence or predicted thunderstorm activity, I keep these charged up with a couple of 5V wall warts so I can get the systems back up pretty quickly.

- Because I have been so happy with the setups that I was more interested in listening than fooling with them, I moved to Lexar 1Tb SD cards in my Zotac PI320 micro computers configured as LMS servers. In addition to now holding almost 80% of my music files and increasing my music selections, they also brought a small but noticeable improvement over the 512Gb PNY cards there previously. Scratching my head on this one, but happy for the bumps up!

As I said above, of this has had me MUCH more interested in listening that building / tweaking / comparing.

Second, the 2 setups I planned to use to compare USBBridge Sig to SDTrans384 were my Soekris DAM DAC setups, one of which is tethered to the SDTrans384 and the other is configured for an I2S feed from an RPi-type header (enter USBBridge Sig here). While both are highly modified, neither has been optimized for use with the UC pair power rail final buffers I universally moved to middle 2019 and would need likely a couple weeks of delicate rework to get there. Both of these setups with the power supplies last used are now sonically FAR behind my current setups in most if not all parameters, so I know I need to bring them up to use my lastest power supply scheme if just to have a comparison that I'd want to listen to for the several weeks needed to get a fair listen (and have the Black Gate caps on each board run-in again as they need to do after an extended down time).

Third, I've just had less audio workbench time available because I'm shifting my focus over to my model aircraft hobbies. AND it is getting close to flying weather!

So likely no comparison until next winter at the earliest. SORRY! Based on what I heard when I switched over to the current setups in early 2019 AND what I heard as I incrementally upgraded them (MANY TIMES!), I suspect that the SDTrans384/Soekris setup will not be far ahead of the USBBridge/FiFoPi/Soekris setup IF AT ALL. A TirNaHiFi-style synchronous I2S reclocker (Acko's old S03 would also work here) after the SDTrans384 might help it pull ahead.

BUT likely no work on any of that until late this year earliest.

Greg in Mississippi

[Mycenius]

On 3/4/2020 at 4:35 AM, higginsd said:

BTW: is it possible to order a Shanti and send it back (with full recharge) after 2 or 4 weeks, if there is no difference in the personal hearing?

 

On 3/6/2020 at 2:55 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

@higginsd has asked that his account be removed. We aren’t smart enough for him to grace us with his presence. Or to use his words:

 

On 3/6/2020 at 4:23 AM, pl_svn said:

   

Looked suspiciously like a perpetual tyre-kicker anyway.... 🙄 🤔

 

There are many of both tyre-kickers and fixed opinions in the music enthusiast and (especially) audiophile communities. Some people just don't like being told (or dare I say 'suggested') something different from their own (preconceived, biased, snake-oil based, or otherwise 'fixed') view or opinion. 🙁

[Mycenius]

On 3/3/2020 at 5:03 AM, richard_crl032 said:

Hi, 

 

I am running the usb bridge signature with latest moode version 6.x.x. While my 2TB hdd works fine, I cannot get the 5TB working .. is there a limit on the size of allowed hdds by the usb bridge or moode ? It does regen MFD sporadically but hangs while it often does not even get detected.

  

Richard - I think your post may have got missed in the noise around '@higginsd'? Anyway I can't give you an exact answer but I can comment on similar from my experience - YMMV, just my 2 cents:

 

1. IME having separate power and data cables for USB connection, versus have an all in one cable (power & data) has little or no impact - you need an extremely high end system to have any hope of hearing any meaningful difference - I know, I tried a few and soem on soem very expensive kit (and my own kit is reasonably high quality).
2. Most Liniux based systems do have some constraints regarding FAT32 drives (and don't support exFAT). So 5TB may be too large to be recognised without some custom config code...
3. Although you get a power light on, on the USB Drive it may be insufficient to fully power it. IMHO it is poor practice to use a 2.5" Drive running off USB power for this role anyway, you should use a full 3.5" drive with a larger enclosure that has it's own external PSU.
4. I'm not sure USBridge Signature is designed to have a USB Drive plugged in the way I think you are doing...? Those USB sockets are for Wi-Fi and Bluetooth dongles, that's all. Better to be looking at a network drive (e.g. plug the USB Drive into your router or use a NAS or something) to store your music files on?

@allo.com probably best to comment on #4 above for you however...

[bamyasi]

6 hours ago, Mycenius said:

1. Most Liniux based systems do have some constraints regarding FAT32 drives (and don't support exFAT). So 5TB may be too large to be recognised without some custom config code...

Haven't come along a Linux system in the past 5 years which would not support exFAT. Some may not have the corresponding FUSE module installed by default though. On Ubuntu/Debian/DietPi/etc system you can easily install it:

 

# apt-get install exfat-fuse

 

For more details, see this link.

 

 

[richard_crl032]

8 hours ago, Mycenius said:

  

Richard - I think your post may have got missed in the noise around '@higginsd'? Anyway I can't give you an exact answer but I can comment on similar from my experience - YMMV, just my 2 cents:

 

1. IME having separate power and data cables for USB connection, versus have an all in one cable (power & data) has little or no impact - you need an extremely high end system to have any hope of hearing any meaningful difference - I know, I tried a few and soem on soem very expensive kit (and my own kit is reasonably high quality).
2. Most Liniux based systems do have some constraints regarding FAT32 drives (and don't support exFAT). So 5TB may be too large to be recognised without some custom config code...
3. Although you get a power light on, on the USB Drive it may be insufficient to fully power it. IMHO it is poor practice to use a 2.5" Drive running off USB power for this role anyway, you should use a full 3.5" drive with a larger enclosure that has it's own external PSU.
4. I'm not sure USBridge Signature is designed to have a USB Drive plugged in the way I think you are doing...? Those USB sockets are for Wi-Fi and Bluetooth dongles, that's all. Better to be looking at a network drive (e.g. plug the USB Drive into your router or use a NAS or something) to store your music files on?

@allo.com probably best to comment on #4 above for you however...

 

Hi Mycenius,

 

Thanks for the kind consideration !!

 

To begin with, the 2TB hdd works fine but not the 5TB and it should indeed be just a power issue but it is still puzzling to me at this stage.

 

I have quite a transparent system with the usb bridge to a denafrip terminator -> audible illusion L3A (blackgate version) -> sanders magtech -> Revel Salon 2 and certainly heard improvement when I used the ifi defender 3.0 to cut 5v at the output of the usb bridge and just have the signal line running down the zonotone shupreme usb cable towards the Terminator dac. Just before the Terminator, I have the Ideon 3R reclocker that nicely has its clean 5v and regenerated signal .. the Terminator needs 5v at its usb input. As such, I was trying to also have the music from my hdd to similarly isolated from its 5v power.

 

With the 2TB hdd, I have the ifi gemini dual heads usb type A and usb microB cable which audio revive also offers ... the usb micro B goes to an adaptor into the hdd at one ends. The other 2 usb type A goes into the 2 ports of the usb bridge.  This works fine and no stability issue at all .. read that the usb bridge offers 3 independent usb ports i.e. 500mA expected which is great since not shared.

 

For the 5TB, I tried both exFAT and NTFS but same instability occurs in the same setup as the 2TB.

 

Indeed it is also quite clear to me that this instability with the 5TB hdd attached is due to insufficient power and I did consider the powered 5TB enclosure hdd or just get the enclosure for not too much $. However, this adds another power source variable and more electronics which I hope to avoid .. especially those cheap enclosures of unknown quality from some china suppliers.

 

Most importantly, I managed last night with this set up to regen mpd and thumbnails as well as both hard reboot by unplugging/plugging main 5v to usb bridge and also soft reboot .. it was still playing beautiful music to my ears from the 5TB this morning after 9 hrs:

 

1. Same microB connector of ifi gemini to adaptor to 5TB hdd

2. Power usb type A connector to one port of usb bridge

3. Signal usb type A connector to input of the ifi usbpower (used spare that I have as reliable clean 5v source).

4. Remaining port of usb bridge connected via the audioquest carbon usb cable to the signal and power output of the ifi usbpower

 

NB: ifi usbpower works like the ideon 3R but only cuts 5v to supply its clean 5V and does not regen the signal for claimed jitter reduction of the ideon 3R.

 

Sorry for the confusion if not clear and hope the below photo of current messy setup being tried helps .. fully understand comments that all these are not needed or overkilling. Just another futile journey and experimentation to hope I learn some from this .. having read how Aurender watch and have best low noise power to their in built ssd without such cable consideration/limitation.

 

Thanks again and cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

1 hour ago, bamyasi said:

Haven't come along a Linux system in the past 5 years which would not support exFAT. Some may not have the corresponding FUSE module installed by default though. On Ubuntu/Debian/DietPi/etc system you can easily install it:

 

# apt-get install exfat-fuse

 

For more details, see this link.

 

 

 

Hi bamyasi,

 

Thanks thanks .. not a computer hardware or software expert to understand all these things but every bit helps my understanding.

 

The usb bridge signature as well as the digione signature in my car hifi system via moode was set up by a learned friend without which I wun not have dare venture into such sbc/pi adventure but it had been fun in the last 3-4 months with great music ... my jay audio cdt2 transport via i2s had been switched off recently .. haha 😅 

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[richard_crl032]

2 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

2 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

 

 

 

NB #1:  Main 5V power to usb bridge is via 65VA Zerozone LPS or 13A theoretically which eliminate any such concern

 

NB #2:  Concern on using of various USD2 connector/gender convertor w.r.t. electrical/db loss seems to be much less than even using another good quality cable ... no cable imho is best and sure, gold or rhodium connectors if you can find them

[allo.com]

Hi

 

 

  generally we do not recommend using a HD connected to USBridge Sig for best SQ. HD are very noise and despite attempts to filter every single line , you will get some noise back into the system

 

 Best way is to separate the HD and USbridge Sig and use something like a RPI4+HD or a networked device .

 

 Also a 5TB HD takes more power than a 2TB and thats the reason uit does not work. Try using a USB cable that separates power from data

[zacho]

@allo.com 

 

I ordered the Digione Signature Player on the 14th of January 2019 as order number 5043. Am toying with the idea of getting the USBridge signature player to mount the digione signature on it but am put off slightly by the need to short some jumpers on older batches of the Digione sig? I was wondering if my version of the Digione Signature is up to date that doesn't require such measures.

[allo.com]

Your Digione Sig will work (no diode present)

[suzywong]

The USBridgeSig case is nice (make sure you get the version for USBridgeSig+DigiOneSig), and get the Shanti as well to power them.

[Cundis]

26 minutes ago, zacho said:

@allo.com 

 

I ordered the Digione Signature Player on the 14th of January 2019 as order number 5043. Am toying with the idea of getting the USBridge signature player to mount the digione signature on it but am put off slightly by the need to short some jumpers on older batches of the Digione sig? I was wondering if my version of the Digione Signature is up to date that doesn't require such measures.

Hold your horses in case you like the sound a little bit on the darker side. 

I did this and over time I noticed a slight lack of midbass punch and openess in the lower midrange. The resolution overall and stereo imaging is a little bit better when mounted on top of the USbridge though. 

 

I'm actually back to having the DigiOne Signature and the USbridge as single streamers and I think I'm happy with that. Gonna try it for a couple of weeks and see if I miss the DigiOne Signature mounted on top of the USbridge. 

Personally I like a sound balance that has focus on stuff in the lower midrange, I loose interest over time when stuff gets a little bit on the analytical side. This may differ of course with others preferences, just wanted to say some words about my discovery. 

[richard_crl032]

53 minutes ago, allo.com said:

Hi

 

 

  generally we do not recommend using a HD connected to USBridge Sig for best SQ. HD are very noise and despite attempts to filter every single line , you will get some noise back into the system

 

Best way is to separate the HD and USbridge Sig and use something like a RPI4+HD or a networked device .

 

Also a 5TB HD takes more power than a 2TB and thats the reason uit does not work. Try using a USB cable that separates power from data

Hi allo,

 

Thanks !

 

Noted on the HD being noisy and for the case of digione signature, I really have no choice in a fairly high end car audio setup band by using an expensive 1TB Scandisk extreme SSD .. the 2TB does not work which I believe is due to only 2.5A rating of the ifi usb3.0 dual 5V supply.

 

For the home application of the usb bridge signature, it will be most likely to be a networked nas as recommended to the existing PC grade switch until investing in a better switch which are also crazily priced ... having a RP4 will not be preferred due to my lack of expertise.

 

Both the 5TB and 2TB HDs works fine now as updated in my earlier post today and will have to compare the sound if any difference when I do get a networked nas .. do not know the negative inpact of more electronics and power over etherent .. are they unaffected by noise ?

 

These queries on the issue with the 5TB HD is out of experimentation with already available stuff except some cheap adaptors and many late nights.

 

Yes, already using the ifi gemini dual head usb cable with separate signal and power.

 

Thanks again for the advice and will stay with the mentioned setup with the ifi usbpower and ifi gemini's separate data and power cables with the 5TB until the networked nas or this setup loses stability.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

[allo.com]

Digione Sig has a galvanic isolation so it might have less noise (even with HD)

 

 Ethernet provides galvanic isolation between your HD and Usbridge , while connecting direct to USB port shares the grounds.

 

 I am not sure how you feed the USbridge and HD but make sure that power supply is also galvanicaly isolated

[zacho]

49 minutes ago, Cundis said:

Hold your horses in case you like the sound a little bit on the darker side. 

I did this and over time I noticed a slight lack of midbass punch and openess in the lower midrange. The resolution overall and stereo imaging is a little bit better when mounted on top of the USbridge though. 

 

I'm actually back to having the DigiOne Signature and the USbridge as single streamers and I think I'm happy with that. Gonna try it for a couple of weeks and see if I miss the DigiOne Signature mounted on top of the USbridge. 

Personally I like a sound balance that has focus on stuff in the lower midrange, I loose interest over time when stuff gets a little bit on the analytical side. This may differ of course with others preferences, just wanted to say some words about my discovery. 

Hmm interesting. This will definitely be something to consider before make any purchase. I too fancy a bit of midbass punch. Have you tried playing with different DC cables? or Spdif cables?

[Cundis]

29 minutes ago, zacho said:

Hmm interesting. This will definitely be something to consider before make any purchase. I too fancy a bit of midbass punch. Have you tried playing with different DC cables? or Spdif cables?

Yes a little bit. I have found my way with Nordost Heimdall 2 on the signal and digital side, and a DIY cable on the DC side. Nordost tends to be very clear, so they will not make the sound darker. But I have also tried with other spdif cables and didn't get the impression that it changed alot in the way of how the sound is balanced towards analytical vs more darker sound. 

 

I will try this for a while now and post my listening impressions when I get a  clearer picture of everything. 

 

[suzywong]

Are you sure it's not your DAC? Last year I changed from: RPi3B+DigiOneSig->Musical Fidelity V-DAC2+VPSU

to: RPi3B+DigiOneSig->Naim DAC+XPS, and thought that the sound got a lot "darker" (if that's the right term) - at first, I wasn't sure I liked it.  However the other benefits of the nDAC over the MF were very apparent.

[richard_crl032]

3 hours ago, allo.com said:

Digione Sig has a galvanic isolation so it might have less noise (even with HD)

 

 Ethernet provides galvanic isolation between your HD and Usbridge , while connecting direct to USB port shares the grounds.

 

 I am not sure how you feed the USbridge and HD but make sure that power supply is also galvanicaly isolated

 

Hi allo,

Thanks again and I need to read up more on this galvanic isolation.

 

A bit complicated now .. the power of the HD is connected to the usb bridge while the signal of the HD is fed into the ifi usbpower via the 20A main that adds its clean 5v to the signal into the usb bridge.

 

The usb bridge itself is powered by a zerozone lps to a separate 20A dedicated line for all digital components .. preamp and amps are on another separate dedicated 30A line.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard

 

[Cundis]

42 minutes ago, suzywong said:

Are you sure it's not your DAC? Last year I changed from: RPi3B+DigiOneSig->Musical Fidelity V-DAC2+VPSU

to: RPi3B+DigiOneSig->Naim DAC+XPS, and thought that the sound got a lot "darker" (if that's the right term) - at first, I wasn't sure I liked it.  However the other benefits of the nDAC over the MF were very apparent.

I'm pretty sure it's not my dac. I've been using this, a Wadia di122 for some time now. I also have an integrated dac in my Hegel H300 which I use occasionally, but the Wadia is my main dac. All listening impressions is based on the Wadia. 

 

I don't know why the sound has more bass impact and is slightly darker when the Digione Signature board is mounted in its old casing, the transparent one. Maybe @allo.com have some thoughts on this. It might be slightly more noisy maybe, as they have worked a lot on that as I understand on the USbridge. The slightly more noise may or may not give the impression of somewhat darker sound, but it shouldn't affect the bass impact imo. 

 

I'll run it like this for some time now and see how it goes. 

 

[dontfeedphils]

FWIW, the only difference I heard after mounting the DigiOne Signature on the USBridge Signature is increased focus and better PRaT. Nothing else changed in my system and to my ears. 

[suzywong]

Hmmm, probably not the DACs then. Same DAC inputs, presumably?

 

My experience of going from RPi+DigiOneSig to USBridgeSig+DigiOneSig, is more akin to dontfeedphils’s.

[Cundis]

Yes same inputs.

 

This is very strange. Maybe the differences in our systems favors some of the frequency spectrums differently. Also sometimes when people are discussing different hifi equipment they can't agree. Maybe it has to with how that equipment is interacting with each single component in the system. 

 

When I mounted the Digione Signature back in its original case the sound balance smacked into place as I was used to before I bought the USbridge. 

 

Maybe this is because my Elac speakers are very revealing in the upper frequencies, or maybe it is because my Hegel H300 also is that. Probably a combination of everything in my setup. 

[Mycenius]

16 hours ago, bamyasi said:

Haven't come along a Linux system in the past 5 years which would not support exFAT. Some may not have the corresponding FUSE module installed by default though. On Ubuntu/Debian/DietPi/etc system you can easily install it:

# apt-get install exfat-fuse

For more details, see this link.

 

Thanks for that heads up @bamyasi good to know. And yes I was aware that some/many 'recent' iterations of Linux do indeed support exFat but I am a RPI novice - so didn't want to go making assumptions things like DietPi and such were in the the group that support it hence good info in your post. Cheers. 👍 😊

[Mycenius]

15 hours ago, richard_crl032 said:

 

@richard_crl032 - just curious - why do you have the USB power lead from one of the USBridge Signature 'BT/Wi-Fi USB Ports to the Ifi then to the har ddrive? If the Ifi has it's own power source can't you just draw power direct from it?

[richard_crl032]

28 minutes ago, Mycenius said:

 

@richard_crl032 - just curious - why do you have the USB power lead from one of the USBridge Signature 'BT/Wi-Fi USB Ports to the Ifi then to the har ddrive? If the Ifi has it's own power source can't you just draw power direct from it?

 

Hi Mycenius,

 

Yes it is a bit complicated and confusing ....

 

What your mentioned usb bridge port to the ifi usbpower and then to the hdd is  ... in fact the data from the hdd going to the ifi usbpower to be mated with its clean 5v into the usb bridge signature ... the reverse way of how things flows. Without the clean 5v from the ifi together with the data from the hdd,  it does not work ... I reckon the input of the usb bridge signature is like my Terminator dac that requires 5v.

 

The other usb bridge signature port to the hdd is then the 5v at probably std usb 500mA max of the usb bridge signature which is working fine powering the 5TB hdd.

 

With this setup, I get a clean 5v with the data from the 5TB hdd into the usb bridge signature .. same principle why ifi usbpower or other regen device cut dirty power with signal and provides it clean 5v.

 

As mentioned, I am already cutting 5v from the output of usb bridge signature with the red colored ifi defender 3.0 and have similar ideon 3r that provide a clean 5v in addition to regen of the data before going into the Terminator dac. When I read how Aurender focus on having clean power for their built-in ssd and curious usb cable mentioning criticality of also the cable from any attached hdd, I decided on this experimentation and finally found how to make it work for the usb bridge signature.

 

Hope this clarifies and pls do not hesitate to query me on any further clarification but for the 2TB hdd, just using the 2 ports of the usb bridge signature for the dual head ifi gemini cable to the 2TB hdd works fine but I cannot explain why.

 

Cheers.

 

Richard