HQPlayer4 EC modulator tips and techniques

[rando]

The old "Who's on fir.. Embedded" routine never loses humor.

[sledwards]

6 hours ago, Outlaw said:

Is there a step step on how to set up ? Downloaded ubuntu server.

 

[k6davis]

5 hours ago, Miska said:

I have the same CPU and Ubuntu Server 16.04 LTS on it, and I'm using it with ASDM7EC + poly-sinc-ext2 just fine to DSD256 (Holo Spring 2).

 

I was able to get that to work too.

 

But on the same server I couldn't get that to work using HQP OS. 

[dminches]

Now that I have gotten my new build to work with ASDM7EC -> 48k / 256DSD I now need to take a step back and understand what all these modulators and filters are/do.  Is there a guide to them or are people just doing trial and error to see what sounds best?

 

My build is:

 

ASUS PRIME Z390-A
Intel i7-9700k
Corsair 16GB Vengeance LPX DDR4 3200 MHz 
Cooler Master HAF 932 
CORSAIR AX series AX860 860W ATX12V 
Corsair Hydro Series, H100i PRO
 

No GPU yet but I may add one at some point.

[StreamFidelity]

16 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

Does it stay below 80 deg C, all the time? If you leave it playing for 2 hours?

 

You still have it in the fanless case, yes? So in addition to fan cooling, still have passive cooling via fanless case also yes?

 

It stayed below 80 °C for round about 1 hour. Than I changed filter. poly-sinc-xtr-mp is not my favorite. HQplayer is working in my passive cooling System with a case fan (140mm).

[Miska]

1 hour ago, dminches said:

Now that I have gotten my new build to work with ASDM7EC -> 48k / 256DSD I now need to take a step back and understand what all these modulators and filters are/do.  Is there a guide to them or are people just doing trial and error to see what sounds best?

 

For filters there's some rough guidance in the manual. Filter choice depends primarily on content (mostly genre) and personal preferences. Personal preferences in a way that different people are especially sensitive to different aspects of the sound. When source material is something like RedBook, which is very tight package, there's no one size fits all filter. In addition, apodizing filters give fairly consistent results regardless of what kind of digital filters were used at the production side. While non-apodizing filters let the production side digital filter characteristics through and thus results depend more on what was used at the production side. Modern ADCs and many software rate converters leave quite a bit of aliasing band at the highest audio frequencies, which is cleaned up by apodizing filters at playback side (and at the same time allow modifying/replacing "ringing" behavior of the filter used at the production side).

 

Choice of modulator is more technical, although there are many different technical aspects which are audible. If a DAC doesn't have very advanced analog filter in the output, fifth order modulator gives more relaxed noise profile by trading some SNR for that. Typical ESS Sabre DAC being example of such. Seventh order modulators provide improved SNR/performance, but the the noise profile is also more aggressive. These things matter more at lower DSD rates (DSD64 and DSD128) than at higher rates where the noise is anyway further up. Usually using either one doesn't cause problems anyway. EC ones are evolution of the earlier ones improving already very good performance significantly.

 

Regarding SNR, what I've measured at DSD256+ speeds, using either fifth or seventh order modulator doesn't really change SNR of the DAC output at audio frequencies because both have already noise floor so far below analog noise floor of the DAC.

 

[Miska]

8 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

It stayed below 80 °C for round about 1 hour. Than I changed filter. poly-sinc-xtr-mp is not my favorite. HQplayer is working in my passive cooling System with a case fan (140mm).

 

These are temps of i7-8086K using quiet fans on Noctua's small 3U case compatible active cooler, running HQPlayer Embedded poly-sinc-ext2 + ASDM7EC to DSD256:

Package id 0:  +64.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 0:        +64.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 1:        +44.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 2:        +64.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 3:        +45.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 4:        +46.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
Core 5:        +45.0°C  (high = +82.0°C, crit = +100.0°C)
 

Cores 0 and 2 running modulators here. poly-sinc-ext2 doesn't really cause much CPU load. Difference being that with ext2 CPU load increases when source rate increases, while with single stage xtr CPU load decreases when source rate increases (vice versa for -2s).

 

[asdf1000]

18 hours ago, Miska said:

 

I have the same CPU and Ubuntu Server 16.04 LTS on it, and I'm using it with ASDM7EC + poly-sinc-ext2 just fine to DSD256 (Holo Spring 2).

 

 

Is HQP OS working for you on that machine?

[Miska]

5 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

Is HQP OS working for you on that machine?

 

Yes it is, playing Tidal at the moment using UPnP (mconnect Player). I have only tested the latest 4.11.2 release on it because the machine doesn't normally have monitor or keyboard to select boot device.

 

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, Miska said:

 

Yes it is, playing Tidal at the moment using UPnP (mconnect Player). I have only tested the latest 4.11.2 release on it because the machine doesn't normally have monitor or keyboard to select boot device.

 

 

HQP OS is what failed with Outlaw's i7-8086. Not sure if he has tested latest 4.11.2 though.

[Miska]

Sorry, not with ASDM7EC to DSD256 not, but otherwise yes...

[asdf1000]

3 minutes ago, Miska said:

Sorry, not with ASDM7EC to DSD256 not, but otherwise yes...

 

Ah, that's consistent with Outlaw then. I think @k6davis also had issues with latest HQP OS?

 

But Ubuntu Server  + HQPe works ok for both of them.

[Outlaw]

6 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

HQP OS is what failed with Outlaw's i7-8086. Not sure if he has tested latest 4.11.2 though.

Yes tried latest version.No improvements.

[Miska]

6 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Ah, that's consistent with Outlaw then. I think @k6davis also had issues with latest HQP OS?

 

But Ubuntu Server  + HQPe works ok for both of them.

 

It's not about HQPlayer OS, it's about the HQPlayer build. The Ubuntu build is entirely different from the HQPlayer OS, Debian or Fedora builds...

 

[asdf1000]

15 minutes ago, Outlaw said:

Yes tried latest version.No improvements.

 

But EC5 is ok? Should be, with same 8086K as Jussi.

[Outlaw]

Just now, asdf1000 said:

 

But EC5 is ok?

Yes

[asdf1000]

31 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

It's not about HQPlayer OS, it's about the HQPlayer build. The Ubuntu build is entirely different from the HQPlayer OS, Debian or Fedora builds...

 

 

Noted. Do you normally recommend Ubuntu Server over Debian Server, for running HQPe?

 

Some more optimizations with Ubuntu Server?

 

[Miska]

3 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Noted. Do you normally recommend Ubuntu Server over Debian Server, for running HQPe?

 

Some more optimizations with Ubuntu Server?

 

Doesn't make much difference from that point. Other than that I don't have a custom kernel build for Debian 10 yet.

 

But the HQPlayer build makes more difference, if you use Debian 10 you can likely interchangeably use stretch package on Ubuntu and bionic package on Debian. I have not tested but you can easily try out.

 

If you don't want to play with custom kernels and want very latest kernel, Fedora Minimal is good. If you are otherwise OK with the Fedora package build (not same as the Ubuntu one).

 

[craighartley]

16 hours ago, Miska said:

Choice of modulator is more technical, although there are many different technical aspects which are audible. If a DAC doesn't have very advanced analog filter in the output, fifth order modulator gives more relaxed noise profile by trading some SNR for that. Typical ESS Sabre DAC being example of such. Seventh order modulators provide improved SNR/performance, but the the noise profile is also more aggressive. These things matter more at lower DSD rates (DSD64 and DSD128) than at higher rates where the noise is anyway further up. Usually using either one doesn't cause problems anyway. EC ones are evolution of the earlier ones improving already very good performance significantly.

And how does using T&A DAC8 DSD affect choice between ASDM5EC and ASDM7EC from a technical point of view? I’m mainly using high res files. 

[Miska]

25 minutes ago, craighartley said:

And how does using T&A DAC8 DSD affect choice between ASDM5EC and ASDM7EC from a technical point of view? I’m mainly using high res files. 

 

It works fine with either one. My recommendation is to use ASDM7EC and set the analog filter in DAC8DSD to "clean" (instead of "wide").

 

[asdf1000]

@Miska with latest HQPe update, what is your average CPU running speed now with your i7-8086K? ext2 + ASDM7EC + DSD256

 

Has this dropped a bit? A bit closer to 4.0 GHz running speed now with latest update?

 

 

 

[craighartley]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

It works fine with either one. My recommendation is to use ASDM7EC and set the analog filter in DAC8DSD to "clean" (instead of "wide").

 

Thanks. And is this at all related to whether ‘wide’ is chosen in DSD Settings in HQP?

[luisma]

On 8/20/2019 at 6:35 PM, lmitche said:

No, the Ryzen machine runs Roonserver, a NUC i7 is connected witelessly to the DAC.

 

I install the GPU, do the setup and then remove it.

It doesn't get any more headless than that

[Miska]

OK, I have a solution...

 

I have updated the image and now on my i7-8086K it works perfectly fine with Tidal source and poly-sinc-xtr + ASDM7EC to DSD256.

 

Please redownload!

[Miska]

5 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

@Miska with latest HQPe update, what is your average CPU running speed now with your i7-8086K? ext2 + ASDM7EC + DSD256

 

Has this dropped a bit? A bit closer to 4.0 GHz running speed now with latest update?

 

With xtr it is about 4.4 GHz right now on all cores... (somewhere between 4.3 and 4.4)