Best Audiophile USB Card ?

[wittao]

9 hours ago, Superdad said:

It does take care. But not as much money as you state. You just need one of these: https://www.microsemi.com/product-directory/phase-noise-and-allan-deviation-testers/5565-53100a#overview. Plus a couple of good external OCXOs to connect for cross-correlation.

It is an industry standard which has been built and sold under several names (TimePod, Symmetricom 5120A, Jackson Labs PhaseStation) for many years. 

Measures down to about -140dBc/Hz at 1Hz, and -178dBc/Hz at 1KHz

About $23K.  It is what we use.

 

 

No, unfortunately that equipments aren't enough to measure the exact phase noise datas. 

We are using to measure our masterclocks and cards Rohde&Schwarz FSUP and R&S FSWP analyzers. Totaly different level. Of course the price range too...

 

In addition about Crystec's 957 series oscillators: the theoretical parameters are ok and gives to the engineers important informations. Earlier (5-6 years ago) we used that Crystec oscillators in our USB/SPDIF converters 24 - 24.576 - 22.5792 MHz freqs and works well but unfortunately in the PCB the oscillators working different then alone connected to the measurement equipment...  -90dB@10Hz is a typical phase noise at that oscillators. We dropped them finally and started to develop our own oscillators. That is true, the newst Crystec modells has better parameters but in audio industry the better parameters not equal always with better SQ.

 

 

[MarcelNL]

PF shows phase noise as <-130dBc/Hz at 10Hz, the jump in SQ between the regular OCXO and the ultra is considerable....not being able to measure phase noise there is no way to correlate one to the other.

 

[wittao]

5 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

PF shows phase noise as <-130dBc/Hz at 10Hz, the jump in SQ between the regular OCXO and the ultra is considerable....not being able to measure phase noise there is no way to correlate one to the other.

 

Yes, i tried the PF USB card without OCXO and normal OCXO, then Ultra OCXO. The final sound quality jumped high and high. 

 

[Gavin1977]

14 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

PF shows phase noise as <-130dBc/Hz at 10Hz, the jump in SQ between the regular OCXO and the ultra is considerable....not being able to measure phase noise there is no way to correlate one to the other.

 

Sorry I don’t get it.  We are able to correlate the difference based on the performance of the clocks alone, no measurement needed - just our ears and the stated specs.

 

?

[MarcelNL]

50 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said:

Sorry I don’t get it.  We are able to correlate the difference based on the performance of the clocks alone, no measurement needed - just our ears and the stated specs.

 

?

Well, I have no huge confidence in correlations based on my own subjective observations with N=1 ;-)

 

The manufacturer specs are what they are, I cannot verify them...and there may be other contributing factors to the difference in SQ, which is why I won't go as far as saying that lower phase noise correlates to better sound quality.

Based on my observations I dare say the PF Ultra OCXO is a very nice improvement of sound quality over the regular OCXO.

 

 

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, wittao said:

No, unfortunately that equipments aren't enough to measure the exact phase noise datas. 

We are using to measure our masterclocks and cards Rohde&Schwarz FSUP and R&S FSWP analyzers. Totaly different level. Of course the price range too...

 

The Rohde & Schwarz analyzers are incredibly well built and beautiful machines with a great many fancy features and functions--most not relevant to simple clock phase-noise analysis in the range of interest to audio. And as you say, the prices to match, probably over $100K for the SFWP, and that might not even include the costly -B61 cross-correlation option for low phase-noise measurements.  

 However, it is not correct that the Rohde & Schwarz analyzers are more sensitive than the John Miles-designed TimePod/Symmetricom/Jackson-Labs/Microsemi 5120A/53100A series units.  Please refer to the specification tables for noise floor of each at 1Hz and 10Hz offsets for clocks in range of 5~10MHz. 

As evidenced below, the Miles unit (now sold by Microsemi for about $23K) with a noise floor of -135dBc/Hz at 1Hz and -145dBc/Hz at 10Hz (both typically even better but these are their guaranteed specifications) is significantly lower than either the R&S FSUP or FSWP units--even when those are equipped with the cross-correlation options.

The Rohde & Schwarz are of course terrific if you are measuring Gigahertz clocks and doing other very advanced analysis as required for microwave communications industry. 

 

 

[Jarek_Jcat]

This discussion is heading in a bit wrong direction, as clock phase noise, important of course but not the only aspect of good sounding clock. Same as noise of power supplies. If we compare Jcat Initio3 and Optimo3Duo, even thou they share same circuit design, have more or less same PCB and noise wise measure exactly the same, they do sound different and Optimo3Duo is significant upgrade over Initio3.

Same goes with clock. There are so many other aspects affecting it’s performance. From power supply and it’s distribution, buffering, signal distribution, output stage, PCB design and many more. Also removing oscillator from USB card and it’s power supply equation, affects SQ. All that matters and was addressed in Master OCXO module design, and is reason it looks quite complex. Master OCXO is step up in phase noise performance over oscillator used on Jcat USB card, but all in all from sound quality perspective it is much more complicated.

 

kind regards

[OAudio]

On 2/17/2023 at 12:20 PM, wittao said:

In addition about Crystec's 957 series oscillators: the theoretical parameters are ok and gives to the engineers important informations. Earlier (5-6 years ago) we used that Crystec oscillators in our USB/SPDIF converters 24 - 24.576 - 22.5792 MHz freqs and works well but unfortunately in the PCB the oscillators working different then alone connected to the measurement equipment...  -90dB@10Hz is a typical phase noise at that oscillators. We dropped them finally and started to develop our own oscillators. 

 

 

For an £10-20 part they offer amazing performance however all of the "Femto" clocks I have looked at are limited by their BOM costs and formfactor limitations.

 

Once you load their outputs they are unpredictable for high level audio use. Drive even a 50 ohm PCB trace (in fairness they are not really spec'd to do this) let alone coax and be prepared to see audio performance pulled all over the dial. Of course you can use them to drive high impedance loads over very short trace lengths but even here the outputs can struggle.

 

I have spent months and months understanding these problems and working out solutions. These devices fundamentally offer decent close in phase noise performance and excellent phase noise floor performance away from the carrier frequency. Here the above limitations are fixed but the solutions cost many 10s of times the cost of the "femto" clock itself. Well worth the effort though in terms of musical performance .

        

[OAudio]

15 hours ago, Jarek_Jcat said:

This discussion is heading in a bit wrong direction, as clock phase noise, important of course but not the only aspect of good sounding clock. Same as noise of power supplies. If we compare Jcat Initio3 and Optimo3Duo, even thou they share same circuit design, have more or less same PCB and noise wise measure exactly the same, they do sound different and Optimo3Duo is significant upgrade over Initio3.

Same goes with clock. There are so many other aspects affecting it’s performance. From power supply and it’s distribution, buffering, signal distribution, output stage, PCB design and many more. Also removing oscillator from USB card and it’s power supply equation, affects SQ. All that matters and was addressed in Master OCXO module design, and is reason it looks quite complex. Master OCXO is step up in phase noise performance over oscillator used on Jcat USB card, but all in all from sound quality perspective it is much more complicated.

 

kind regards

 

Indeed, phase noise performance only counts when it is delivered directly onto the pin of the device you are driving. Not withstanding the oscillator's performance, implementation is everything.

 

I'm not sure that I would say Master OCXO module design is quite complex though, here we are developing the firmware for the imbedded micros that control both the clock system's functions and the USB card .  

 

Still a good looking board and defiantly a good move to take the clock off the USB card IMHO. 

[Exocer]

Lots of updates to share. Also, I am not done with tests as I am fortunate enough to be borrowing an Audio Mirror Tubadour IV for the next week or so AND I have a USB Isolator hub to try (which is a bit more complex for me to test due to my arrangement but I think i've figured out what I need to do):

 

Since my last post on this topic I have had a chance to test (Using my Yggdrasil LIM):

 

1. JCAT USB XE (my reference)

2. The Core Audio P24 OCXO W/ Mutec Ref10 clock input. & Cybershaft 50ohm clock cable.

3. JCAT USB XE with JCAT OCXO board (Both DC4 powered).

4*. SOTM TX-USBUltra reclocked by Ref10 (Same CyberShaft clock cable) powered by its stock SMPS and downstream from the JCAT USB XE (Thanks @AngeloVRA for letting me borrow this device).

5. SOTM TX-USBUltra without Ref10 input (the one I purchased did not come with clock input) downstream from JCAT USB XE.

6. SOTM TX-Usbultra without Ref10 input downstream from JCAT USB XE with JCAT clock.

 

*I unfortunately did not get to test the SOTM TX-USBULTRA with my ref10 input + the JCAT USB XE with clock due to logistics but I will revert with the results of that test once I enable the clock input on my TX-Usbultra.

 

*Also worth noting - I did not test the SOTM TX-Ultrausb with Ref10 input and DC4 power because I was unable to easily open the TX-USBUltra I borrowed to switch the voltage. I would rather not strip a screw on a borrowed device.

 

EVERY device here except for the TX-USBUltra in test 4 was DC4 powered (except for the Ref10 which has its own power).

 

Where do I begin. Still following? (This is a bit complicated)

 

ALL of the above options sound very good and scale with better power.  Listing in order of preference:

 

6 | 5 | 4 traded blows 3 | and a tie between 1 and 2 coming down to preference.

 

It would take a novel I am not prepared to write to explain what i'm hearing so I will do my best to summarize:

 

Comparing the JCAT with its re-clocked twin was very interesting. Thing of everything you love about the USB XE and add a lot of precision, clarity and spatial resolution. You will get the impression that the clock removes some bass but what you get is more precise bass and improved definition. Instruments are less veiled, more tangible. 

 

Adding the SOTM TX-Usbultra ultrade brought amazing refinement to the table and further dropped the noise floor. I was impressed enough with the SMPS powered TX-Usbultra that I had to have my own. While the Ref10 improved the SMPS powered TX-usbultra, the DC4 powered and unreclocked TX-usbultra improved SQ much further. The DC4 here just adds more body and weight to the sound while taking transparency and resolution into a new league. I regret not trying this device sooner. The takeaway here is that power supply quality is noticeably more impactful to sound quality than even a high caliber Ref10 clock.

 

The JCAT USB XE + clock vs SOTM TX-USBUltra SMPS powered/reclocked was interesting. Again, there being no SMPS's in the chain, the JCAT USB XE reclocked sounded more natural and engaging alone although the reclocked TX-USBUltra + smps added some refinement. NOTE: As great as the TX-USBUltra is, it did not beat the JCAT USB XE + clock on its own. The two worked very well together and complement each other nicely.

 

The Core Audio P24 OCXO also sounded glorious but it sounded a bit more dry and restricted compared to the other cards here. It felt a bit to highly damped. This may be system dependent. Adding the Ref10 improved transparency and precision to a noticeable degree. I almost came to the conclusion that this surpassed the JCAT USB XE card, but after swapping back I was reminded of the excitement and organic feel of the USB XE. From a value proposition perspective, I think the JCAT USB XE will probably make more sense.

 

Last but now least - I experienced a wow moment going from the JCAT USB XE reclocked + TX-usbultra to the JCAT USB XE stock + TX-Ultra. I was overwhelmed by the bass outpu and slam of the default jcat card. Upon closer listening, what I was hearing was a less controlled albeit more "exciting" bass although not as natural or accurate as the reclocked jcat card. I then asked myself "where did the guitars go?!". The song I used has some noteworthy guitar chords and the reclocked JCAT brings all of this to the forefront with amazing clarity and tone. So yes, the reclocked JCAT USB XE is absolutely awesome and I would like to thank @Marcin_gps for allowing me to test it. It will be painful to send this thing back 😎.

 

I hope everyone found this test useful!

 

@Jarek_Jcat - Can you confirm if the production JCAT USB XE with clock input will expect a 3.3v peak to peak clock signal?

 

 

Thanks, 

-Rob

 

 

 

 

[GUTB]

I've had great results from the Paul Pang v3, a basic USB controller with a fat custom OCXO plugged in. It can take external power and I have used it with a large 60000mAh USB  battery pack for years now which provided the best quality audio. Checking on PP's website it doesn't look like he's selling USB cards any longer. 

 

[Jarek_Jcat]

5 hours ago, Exocer said:

@Jarek_Jcat - Can you confirm if the production JCAT USB XE with clock input will expect a 3.3v peak to peak clock signal?

 

Hi,

 

I'm glad you like our clock upgrade for USB XE card. 

 

We use 3.3V powered clocks, that typically gives actual clock signal around 2.7Vpp.

 

kind regards

[Gavin1977]

6 hours ago, Exocer said:

Lots of updates to share.

Great work Rob - I'm sure that was a lot of effort.

[Argon]

I'm in the throws of building a NAA endpoint for HQPlayer modeled on the well documented CAPS 20.1 rig, the JCAT USB XE is on my buy list.  I don't see an external clocked variant on JCat's site; any insight on timing / pricing for this leveled-up USB XE? 

[Jarek_Jcat]

 

It is coming, I'm sure @Marcin_gps will give some details soon.

[internethandle]

Thanks for the review, @Exocer -- helps with my decision to upgrade my USB XE when the OCXO board is released, since we're using the same DAC and I also have a tX-USBultra. Definitely agree that the USB XE and the tX-USBultra play very well together. Also not surprised that you said it was helped greatly by the Sean Jacobs, the Audio Bacon review mentioned that the tX-USBultra was the most sensitive device he's ever heard to LPS changes. I'm using a PHD SR4T with it partially based on his review there.

 

Another advantage potentially with the tX-USBultra you should consider is that you can potentially get the clock board inside the unit modified to use its untapped outputs and then use those outputs to reclock your SOtM motherboard, at least I'm pretty sure that would work. I've considered the same when I think of doing a new server build. I realize this would involve getting SOtM (or potentially Crux Audio, aka SOtM USA) to modify both the motherboard and the tX-USBultra, though.

 

I have a tX-USBultra "Special Edition" with the SOtM EMI/RFI paper, upgraded caps, Neotech OCC Silver wire, etc. as well as the 75ohm input (using a Emperor Signature AfterDark OCXO with it, agree with your conclusion that it makes a difference but that power supply seems bigger -- AudioBacon recommended the Snake River Audio Boomslang BNC-BNC as a clock cable during a shootout and that was also good, much better than Blue Jeans that I used temporarily) -- never got a good handle on how much difference Special Edition upgrades make, but those units have been showing up on the used market for some time now, so it's not impossible to get a good deal. Got mine for $750 about two to three years ago here on AS, which amounts to a 50% discount over the ~$1500 Crux Audio charges for a new Special Edition unit with a clock input.

[internethandle]

Oh also @Exocer don't forget to play around with the jumpers on the XE card now that you're using a tX-USBultra -- the ultra does not need 5V on the USB cable, whereas (as you probably know) Yggy LIM/Unison USB does. Possible that with your super high quality power supplies it won't make much difference, but worth A/B'ing. 

[Exocer]

10 hours ago, internethandle said:

Thanks for the review, @Exocer -- helps with my decision to upgrade my USB XE when the OCXO board is released, since we're using the same DAC and I also have a tX-USBultra. Definitely agree that the USB XE and the tX-USBultra play very well together. Also not surprised that you said it was helped greatly by the Sean Jacobs, the Audio Bacon review mentioned that the tX-USBultra was the most sensitive device he's ever heard to LPS changes. I'm using a PHD SR4T with it partially based on his review there.

 

Another advantage potentially with the tX-USBultra you should consider is that you can potentially get the clock board inside the unit modified to use its untapped outputs and then use those outputs to reclock your SOtM motherboard, at least I'm pretty sure that would work. I've considered the same when I think of doing a new server build. I realize this would involve getting SOtM (or potentially Crux Audio, aka SOtM USA) to modify both the motherboard and the tX-USBultra, though.

 

I have a tX-USBultra "Special Edition" with the SOtM EMI/RFI paper, upgraded caps, Neotech OCC Silver wire, etc. as well as the 75ohm input (using a Emperor Signature AfterDark OCXO with it, agree with your conclusion that it makes a difference but that power supply seems bigger -- AudioBacon recommended the Snake River Audio Boomslang BNC-BNC as a clock cable during a shootout and that was also good, much better than Blue Jeans that I used temporarily) -- never got a good handle on how much difference Special Edition upgrades make, but those units have been showing up on the used market for some time now, so it's not impossible to get a good deal. Got mine for $750 about two to three years ago here on AS, which amounts to a 50% discount over the ~$1500 Crux Audio charges for a new Special Edition unit with a clock input.

The sole purpose of my TX-USBUltra purchase was to be able to:

1. Extract the SCLK-EX, enable the outputs to work with:

a. Motherboard

b. Onboard Lan

c. A USB card

d. USB Hubin

e. Enable the external 75ohm clock input so that I can incorporate my Ref10.

 

The USBHubin is already configured to be reclocked by the SCLK-EX and that is the only active output on my board presently. Also, my motherboard will need to be modded to accept the external clocks. I am planning to have all of these mods done professionally (since my time is very limited these days).

 

The USBHubin will be mounted inside of the chassis.

 

That being said, the tx-usbultra mods do not apply to me since I will be taking the entire thing apart and splittin the components this year. I will also be doing custom wiring. @AngeloVRAgave me tons of ideas of what to try.

 

@internethandle - I am sure your SR4T is doing a wonderful job in this function!

 

Thanks for taking the time to read it. There are a bunch of typos and grammatical errors but I did not have time to proof read. Just because the TX-USBUltra isn't as populare as it once was, it should not be disregarded. It is on the list of my biggest regrets for not trying sooner. That being said, the reclocked JCAT USB XE is going to be a game changer as well. Just think of everything you like about the existing USB XE and take it up several notches. (I am not paid to shill, I am genuinely honored and excited for where this journey will take us all).

 

Cheers,

-Rob

 

[internethandle]

10 hours ago, Exocer said:

The sole purpose of my TX-USBUltra purchase was to be able to:

1. Extract the SCLK-EX, enable the outputs to work with:

a. Motherboard

b. Onboard Lan

c. A USB card

d. USB Hubin

e. Enable the external 75ohm clock input so that I can incorporate my Ref10.

 

The USBHubin is already configured to be reclocked by the SCLK-EX and that is the only active output on my board presently. Also, my motherboard will need to be modded to accept the external clocks. I am planning to have all of these mods done professionally (since my time is very limited these days).

 

The USBHubin will be mounted inside of the chassis.

 

That being said, the tx-usbultra mods do not apply to me since I will be taking the entire thing apart and splittin the components this year. I will also be doing custom wiring. @AngeloVRAgave me tons of ideas of what to try.

 

@internethandle - I am sure your SR4T is doing a wonderful job in this function!

 

Thanks for taking the time to read it. There are a bunch of typos and grammatical errors but I did not have time to proof read. Just because the TX-USBUltra isn't as populare as it once was, it should not be disregarded. It is on the list of my biggest regrets for not trying sooner. That being said, the reclocked JCAT USB XE is going to be a game changer as well. Just think of everything you like about the existing USB XE and take it up several notches. (I am not paid to shill, I am genuinely honored and excited for where this journey will take us all).

 

Cheers,

-Rob

 

Interesting. What will you be using the HubIn for? As in, once it is installed in your case with the clock board, are you planning on plugging the XE output into it and then on to the LIM, or will it be used to attach NAS/similar to your server? Or something else?

 

My understanding was always that the HubIn is essentially the same as the output/hub board in the ultra, except the ultra has a smaller daughter board above it that accepts power via 2.1mm jack and has a USB B port, vs. the HubIn having the power jack on its board (and no USB B port). Some of SOtM’s products with a USB hub chip have overlap there, though, so it gets a bit confusing.

[AngeloVRA]

5 hours ago, internethandle said:

Interesting. What will you be using the HubIn for? As in, once it is installed in your case with the clock board, are you planning on plugging the XE output into it and then on to the LIM, or will it be used to attach NAS/similar to your server? Or something else?

 

My understanding was always that the HubIn is essentially the same as the output/hub board in the ultra, except the ultra has a smaller daughter board above it that accepts power via 2.1mm jack and has a USB B port, vs. the HubIn having the power jack on its board (and no USB B port). Some of SOtM’s products with a USB hub chip have overlap there, though, so it gets a bit confusing.

 

Hi @internethandle

 

You can tap the output signal of the JCAT USB XE and wire it to the input of the USBhubIn. With the USBHubIn clocked by an SCLK-ex, this essentially gives you a tX-USBultra installed internally in your chassis server.

 

Above is a pic of the USB XE wired to the USBHubin using a DIY cable for D+/D-/Gnd.

The USBHubIn is powered with and external 12v LPS via the rear SATA connector. It can also be powered with 9V via its own DC power input jack OR  from the SCLK-EX via another power in connector as in the standard tX-USBUltra.

 

 

Above is the pinout for USB XE. From the top, it is Gnd/D+/D-/Vcc

NOTE OF CAUTION: before soldering the wires in, make sure there is no voltage on VCC pin as it is easy to short out D- and Vcc pins as you position and solder the D- wire. This would cause damage to the IC feeding the signal. Taking off the 5v jumpers from the USB XE before working on it would remove voltage from the Vcc pin. As always, verify with a DMM.

 

 

If you are "relocating" a USBHubIn from a tX-USBUltra, you would need the appropriate PCIE slot cover to mount it properly. The above can be ordered from SOTM.

 

 

Hope this helps.

Angelo

 

 

[internethandle]

@AngeloVRA very cool. Not sure I have the skill set to modify an XE card such as you have but it's a very elegant/tidy solution.

 

Is the advantage of this solution vs. an external tX-USBultra, in your eyes, both less boxes to deal with and less USB cables/shorter clock cables? Makes sense to me especially to do it this way if you were using the SCLK-ex inside a server with multiple taps, tidier and neater.

[AngeloVRA]

36 minutes ago, internethandle said:

@AngeloVRA very cool. Not sure I have the skill set to modify an XE card such as you have but it's a very elegant/tidy solution.

 

Is the advantage of this solution vs. an external tX-USBultra, in your eyes, both less boxes to deal with and less USB cables/shorter clock cables? Makes sense to me especially to do it this way if you were using the SCLK-ex inside a server with multiple taps, tidier and neater.

Hi @internethandle

Yes, I moved from a Gigabyte Vision D motherboard with Xeon W-1290 to an SOTM SMB-Q370 with 2 outputs of the SCLK-ex clocking the MB. Adding the SNI-1G and the USBHub in this manner made full use of all 4 outputs, does result in less boxes, less LPS, less AC cable, less DC cable, less USB cable....less clutter..... and since I was feeding the SCLK-EX with a Mutec SE120, also 1 less external clock cable.

 

 

 

[Ghoostknight]

did anyone compare these usb pcie cards against a holo audio titanis reclocker?

[Exocer]

On 5/7/2023 at 7:43 AM, Ghoostknight said:

did anyone compare these usb pcie cards against a holo audio titanis reclocker?

No - but I am going to try a new USB hub soon. Will report back with my findings.

[flkin]

Pink Faun is just about to launch their "Ultra" USB card, looks like it might be a game changer..

I had a chance to listen to it. Review here in the Pink Faun 2.16 thread: