USB audio transmission isn’t bit true

[diecaster]

20 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

The actual bits won't be accurate at the input pin(s) to the dac....that is what many/most people try to sell you here, but it is untrue. A lot of things are logical to me now in realizing this.

 

Really?? Whenever I use a special test file for my DAC that tests for bit perfect data delivery, it shows that I am indeed getting bit perfect data delivery. 

 

I think you you are trying to fit your ideas into a problem that does not really exist. USB audio data delivery is quite reliable. 

[diecaster]

5 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

ok boys can have this thread..

point was made and troll buddies exposed.

 

How am I trolling when I can prove my DAC is getting bit perfect data over USB which invalidates the premise of your thread?

[diecaster]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 

Yet it can still sound like crap unless a lot more attention to detail and expense is involved to get the best sound from it.

Thousands of C.A. members have already discovered that for themselves.

 There is a whole "Cottage Industry" set up to improve the performance of USB.

 Some of the solutions include USB cables with better isolation between D- and D+ and  VBus and  0volts, internal USB cards with improved power, Iso Rgens, USB Regens, USB to SPDIF converters etc. etc.

 Still, quite a few from the Objective side refuse to accept that this just MAY result in markedly improved sound on old purely theoretical grounds. Neither are they willing to try some of these solutions for themselves , and will insist that these members are gullible fools who deserve to be parted from their hard earned money. 

 

That is a whole different topic........

[diecaster]

44 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

I am glad that both sides agree that DACS get errors, that USB is subject to error rate because of isosynchronous transmission , and the errors can be a result of a number of different reasons...and it appears even in a very stable environment, that a dac can interpolate such that it would be difficult to hear....either way, a USB interface  is unnecessary, and enet may be preferred by many, including LUMIN, who now even offer a network player with fiber input....now we are talking!

 

USB is not subject to errors because of isosynchronous transmission. It can’t correct errors due to isosynchronous transmission. 

 

In the several dozen times I have tested for bit perfect transmission over USB with my DAC and various setups, I have never had it not be bit perfect. A proper USB setup should not see errors as a matter of course. 

[diecaster]

I didn't say that USB is not subject to errors. I said that "A proper USB setup should not see errors as a matter of course."

 

I have used a variety of computers, including laptop, desktop, and server systems I have used "special" and typical USB cables shorter than 3 meters. I have not used an optimized system but always a quality system. I have used special purpose systems as endpoints. This would include the microRendu, the ultraRendu, and various SoTM endpoints.

 

You don't have to do any "special" to get reliable data transfer over USB. You just don't want to do anything unusual like use 6 meter USB cables or crappy endpoints.

[diecaster]

I am using an ultraRendu now. But, in the past I have run a variety of systems directly the DAC with no special cables and there were no errors detected when I checked.

 

Again, USB 2.0 Audio is not inherently error prone. The premise in the title of this thread is just plain wrong.

[diecaster]

You mean why did I switch from direct connect USB (computer to DAC) to a server/endpoint setup using USB at the DAC?

 

There were several reasons. One was that I wanted to stop using my office computer or my laptop to play music. I wanted a dedicated server for Roon so whatever I was doing on my computers did not affect music playback. Another was that I wanted the best sound quality possible and I knew that my noisy desktop and laptop systems talking to the DAC directly over USB was about the worst way to go in that regard. Some kind of special purpose endpoint was the way to go there. Finally, I wanted multiple "zones" to play music with all of them accessing the same music. The best way to do that was to have a Roon Core server with multiple "endpoints".  

[diecaster]

16 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Besides the last point of multiple zones, couldn't a dedicated pc connected directly to a dac do that?

I am trying to determine all the reasons why an enet solution would be superior to a pc directly connected to a dac and why.

 

Wow. I am not going through all of that. If you have not gleaned that information from this forum since you have been here....well...I don't know what to say.

[diecaster]

8 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

People keep misunderstanding what my premise is.  The premise is merely that which Rankin stated....that USB transmission (e.g. isosynchronous) isn't bit true.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I never suggested that someone can't create a stable USB solution. Anyway, i have updated the subject to reflect what Rankin stated.

 

The new thread title has a MUCH different meaning than the old title.

 

Just because USB 2.0 Audio does not guarantee data delivery is perfect does not mean that incomplete data is routinely received. It means that if some data gets messed up, it will not be resent. In fact, the ONLY reason one would even consider using a protocol that did not retransmit bad packets is if you didn't think bad packets were going to be a serious issue. Getting the bits accurately to the DAC is NOT the problem.

[diecaster]

14 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Another reason not to re-transmit bad packets is to play real time.

 

Let's assume that "real time" is an issue here (which it is not). If data arriving incorrectly was a common problem, you would hear it. You would for sure use a system that guaranteed data delivery.

 

 

[diecaster]

17 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

What is the theory that 100 different usb cables can give 100 different SQ?

 

It’s like using 100 different filters. Each is going to sound a bit different. 

[diecaster]

3 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

So how does a filter give more detail, more sound stage?  The music will be the same (bit perfect) regardless of the filter, correct?

 

Look, this has been covered ad nauseam. 

 

The USB cables change the noise and other crap that come along with the digital data. This means the USB receiver sees different signals with different cables so the sound is changed in different ways depending on the USB cable used. 

[diecaster]

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

Electrical noise on USB signals causes CRC errors and thus data loss...

 

The text above is incorrect. There is always some electrical noise on the USB bus. If that text were accurate, you would get nothing but CRC errors and USB audio would never work. No, the text should read:

 

Electrical noise on USB signals can cause CRC errors which would result in data loss.

 

You can’t take what is written as an absolute at face value. You need to look logically at what was written to come to the right conclusions about what was intended to be conveyed. 

 

Even the noisiest USB bus computers aren’t generating many CRC errors. If they were all transfers would be dramatically slowed down. 

[diecaster]

33 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Canadians are like Americans but civilized

 

Canadians just think they are better than Americans. Americans are commonly bashed by people from other countries. It must be jealousy.....

[diecaster]

13 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

When will you guys get it that the USA is only a part of America, NOT America ?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas

They quite possibly are judging by your choice of leaders !

 

When will you get it that "Americans" refers to people of the United Stats of America?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans

 

I am content with our leader. He is certainly better than what the Canadians, French, or Brits have.

[diecaster]

15 minutes ago, mansr said:

From that article: The word "American" can also refer to people from the Americas in general.

 

If you say "Americans" just about anywhere in the English speaking world, people will assume you are talking about people from the USA.

[diecaster]

9 minutes ago, sandyk said:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/could-superman-actually-be-canadian-1.1706526

 

No, Superman is Kryptonian.

[diecaster]

2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

I'm A 'murican

 

That doesn’t change what I wrote. 

[diecaster]

2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Yours was an invalid response to my comment.  You are now sounding like an australian.

 

No. My response to your comment was a general commentary on Canadians. It never addressed your specific comment nor was it intended to do so. 

[diecaster]

Ok. I have learned my lesson. I will never again participate in another beerandmusic thread and wii have him banned from any thread I start. It’s just not worth the headache. 

[diecaster]

Yes, please do remind me about this post. Thank you!

[diecaster]

30 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

why are you even continuing...go away as promised.

 

You need to read more closely. I said “another”.