Understanding Sample Rate

[Ralf11]

not published, but I once ripped & reripped a CD many, many times and could not hear a difference

 

this was on a system with a Cal Audio CD player with PowerBoss, I think I had the Sunfire amp then, and Sonic Frontiers line One pre - either Vandersteen 2c or 2ce or maybe Maggie 1.5QR speakers - not as good as what I have now...

 

 

 

 

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Is it possible for a large number of such errors to cause a difference in SQ due to interpolations not being correct?

I was referring to correctable errors.

[beerandmusic]

12 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

I know you believe this.  It got me thinking, I am down to a cheap commodity LG usb powered/connected disc reader connected to my computer via usb with not a decrapifier in sight.  This thing had to be made in China with parts that cost less than $2. My belief is that, if I ripped the same CD (regular - neither "blue" nor "gold") over and over again for the lifetime of the unit (for argument sake, let's say 1 year of man hours) the checksums would agree >99.5% of the time.  Even in the cases where they would not, the stray bit here or there would be inaudible in all but a handful of rips.

 

Anyone ever actually published the results of such a test?

 

 

there is a chart that shows the most accurate cd drives for rips and i believe all of the top 100 on the list exceeded 98%

 

edit to add----

 

this isnt the actual list, ..i am sure a quick google will pop the list i was talking about.

https://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?37706-CD-DVD-Drive-Accuracy-List-2016

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

Is it possible for a large number of such errors to cause a difference in SQ due to interpolations not being correct?

 A  problem with most USB powered portable writers is that they are very sensitive to the length , and sometimes the quality of the USB cable used to connect them, due mainly  to voltage drops in the cable and connectors. They also often need to use 2 USB sockets for power.

In this case, particularly if you use a short USB extender cable  to place the writer on a more stable surface, they can sometimes read the contents correctly using EAC for example, but fail during data extraction.

Using an external PSU can often reduce the numbers of errors as shown by the checksums, which can mean a lot of saved time when ripping large numbers of CDs.

[Spacehound]

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

there is a chart that shows the most accurate cd drives for rips and i believe all of the top 100 on the list exceeded 98%

 

edit to add----

 

this isnt the actual list, ..i am sure a quick google will pop the list i was talking about.

https://forum.dbpoweramp.com/showthread.php?37706-CD-DVD-Drive-Accuracy-List-2016

I find it difficult to interpret those  tables.

One wonders what they mean.   Inaccurate compared to what? All the others? There is no '100% accurate' reference.

 

Personally, using both EAC when I was obsessive  some time  ago and the JRiver one for two years or so since I was cured (equals not faffing around on pointless activities), only one in a hundred or better has come out less than 100%, and those I knew already made some odd but not intrusive sounds.  Some that have known  faults come out perfect.

 

I don't use any fancy power supplies, cables etc.

[beerandmusic]

42 minutes ago, Spacehound said:

I find it difficult to interpret those  tables.

One wonders what they mean.   Inaccurate compared to what? All the others? There is no '100% accurate' reference.

 

Personally, using both EAC when I was obsessive  some time  ago and the JRiver one for two years or so since I was cured (equals not faffing around on pointless activities), only one in a hundred or better has come out less than 100%, and those I knew already made some odd but not intrusive sounds.  Some that have known  faults come out perfect.

 

I don't use any fancy power supplies, cables etc.

 

the perecentage is based on the final rips compared to known accurate rips in their database.

 

if it got 99% that means that 99 out of 100 rips were 100% accurate.

 

[jabbr]

4 hours ago, mansr said:

I won't say it's impossible, but it should be a rare exception. If the player has trouble tracking or maintaining focus, or if the error rate is abnormally high, it could maybe, possibly cause some noise on a poorly designed player. Any two spec-compliant discs played on decent gear should sound the same.

 

He says a lot of things.

 

Dont want to beat a dead horse too much but it was Gordon Rankin from whom I first heard the SQ advantage of ripping a CD to hard drive and subsequent playback. He has a rather good technical background. 

 

@alfe has his own views  

 

In in any case there are many people who have heard SQ differences between CD and hard drive, so CD to CD doesn’t seem too far a leap. 

 

I rip all my CD, DVD, SACD, blu Ray etc to harddrive so dont really think about this ??‍♂️

[mansr]

50 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Dont want to beat a dead horse too much but it was Gordon Rankin from whom I first heard the SQ advantage of ripping a CD to hard drive and subsequent playback. He has a rather good technical background. 

I have no respect whatsoever for Gordon Rankin. He is a liar and a jerk. He'll say whatever will sell his latest snake oil.

 

50 minutes ago, jabbr said:

In in any case there are many people who have heard SQ differences between CD and hard drive, so CD to CD doesn’t seem too far a leap.

Comparing a CD to a rip involves completely different hardware. A slight difference isn't entirely implausible. Two good discs played on the same player really shouldn't sound different. If they do, I'd call the player defective.

[patagent]

On 2/23/2018 at 1:03 PM, beerandmusic said:

anyone that thinks or suggests that the theorem can be used to suggest that all real life bandwidth of human hearing can be captured at 44.1K sample rate have misappropriated the theorem.

if they use it to suggest it is "good enough" then that is fine....where "good enough" is subjective.

 

There is an "exception" to the Nyquist sampling theorem although not in the direction you would like:

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/412593/why-compressive-sensing-will-change-the-world/

 

I have a buddy who is a math PhD who works in compressive sensing so I'm familiar with some of the concepts.

 

 

[Ralf11]

CD to a rip could be:

 

motor or its PS noise is in proximity to DAC 

 

newer or better DAC is used for the rips

 

bits slip on MQA infested snake oil and fall down into the noise floor

[Spacehound]

13 minutes ago, mansr said:

I have no respect whatsoever for Gordon Rankin. He is....etc.

 

Comparing a CD to a rip involves completely different hardware. A slight difference isn't entirely implausible. Two good discs played on the same player really shouldn't sound different. If they do, I'd call the player defective.

You aren't allowed to say that. Do I agree with what you say? You don't need to ask but I'm not telling 'voluntarily'.

(I changed what you posted so nobody can  get  it from my post. Being 'thoughtful' an' all.)

[esldude]

6 hours ago, sandyk said:

  Why do you think Telarc, Mobile Fidelity etc. use " Gold" discs. ? It's not just because they can charge more for them, they have better readability, just as Blu Spec CD and SHM formats from Japan do, AND sound a little better with most affordable players. In the case of players such as the expensive Marantz SA11, the differences are still there, but not as pronounced.

I could also attach a report by M.C. about comparison .wav files created using both generic and MAM Gold CD-Rs, but  it would be a waste of my time, as nothing anybody says will ever change a closed mind like yours apparently is !

I am however prepared to forward a copy of the report via a PM to interested members who have shown that their minds aren't welded shut.

I had a bright little lamp next to my TT in the days or yore.  So I could see when placing the needle in the groove and any dust that was on the disc.  When CD came out I found looking thru them at this little lamp that many had pin holes in the substrate of aluminum.  In time those mostly disappeared as CD manufacturing improved.  When I first purchased some gold MSFL discs why those things were nearly transparent and full of pinholes.  Lots and lots of them.  They still sounded fantastic, but I don't think the gold had much to do with it. If they weren't in storage I could take some pics of that. 

[esldude]

5 hours ago, sandyk said:

 A  problem with most USB powered portable writers is that they are very sensitive to the length , and sometimes the quality of the USB cable used to connect them, due mainly  to voltage drops in the cable and connectors. They also often need to use 2 USB sockets for power.

In this case, particularly if you use a short USB extender cable  to place the writer on a more stable surface, they can sometimes read the contents correctly using EAC for example, but fail during data extraction.

Using an external PSU can often reduce the numbers of errors as shown by the checksums, which can mean a lot of saved time when ripping large numbers of CDs.

This I agree with and have experienced.  Some USB powered CD-drives can be pretty iffy.  

[esldude]

2 hours ago, patagent said:

 

There is an "exception" to the Nyquist sampling theorem although not in the direction you would like:

 

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/412593/why-compressive-sensing-will-change-the-world/

 

I have a buddy who is a math PhD who works in compressive sensing so I'm familiar with some of the concepts.

 

 

Yes, MQA hinted they were using sparse sampling (another word for compressive sensing) to achieve their reduction in file size while having hirez results.  Unfortunately it appears they are in fact doing nothing of the sort.  It was intended to provide cover for their lazy filters and the resulting aliasing in my opinion. 

[sandyk]

17 minutes ago, esldude said:

I had a bright little lamp next to my TT in the days or yore.  So I could see when placing the needle in the groove and any dust that was on the disc.  When CD came out I found looking thru them at this little lamp that many had pin holes in the substrate of aluminum.  In time those mostly disappeared as CD manufacturing improved.  When I first purchased some gold MSFL discs why those things were nearly transparent and full of pinholes.  Lots and lots of them.  They still sounded fantastic, but I don't think the gold had much to do with it. If they weren't in storage I could take some pics of that. 

 There were heaps of problems with earlier CDs from almost all suppliers, where they appeared to skimp on the aluminium layer, and you could see daylight through them.

 I have previously posted a photo of an Elton John CD with large pinholes in it that caused it to become unplayable.

It was caused by the printing inks used at the time on the non reflective side.

[sandyk]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

I have no respect whatsoever for Gordon Rankin. He is a liar and a jerk. He'll say whatever will sell his latest snake oil.

 

Comparing a CD to a rip involves completely different hardware. A slight difference isn't entirely implausible. Two good discs played on the same player really shouldn't sound different. If they do, I'd call the player defective.

 There are many people who have reported that even the same discs manufactured in different pressing plants can sound a little different. This includes Barry D. as well.

 In the early days many preferred to obtain their CDs from overseas manufacturers such as Germany, rather than locally, because they sounded better !

[sandyk]

35 minutes ago, esldude said:

This I agree with and have experienced.  Some USB powered CD-drives can be pretty iffy.  

 If you are using a normal Windows PC you can  use something like the attached which has the power supply leads of both ports in parallel for a 1A current capability from 1 port at a time.  Each port's +5V lead  is bypassed by a 100uF electrolytic capacitor, which further reduces the USB noise on the +5V line. Replacing them with 100uF 16V Panasonic FM low ESR capacitors gives a further small improvement.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3-5-2-USB-2-0-Port-HUB-HD-Audio-Output-Floppy-Drive-Expansion-Front-Panel-KK-/281849530542?hash=item419f8a88ae

[firedog]

10 hours ago, crenca said:

 

I know you believe this.  It got me thinking, I am down to a cheap commodity LG usb powered/connected disc reader connected to my computer via usb with not a decrapifier in sight.  This thing had to be made in China with parts that cost less than $2. My belief is that, if I ripped the same CD (regular - neither "blue" nor "gold") over and over again for the lifetime of the unit (for argument sake, let's say 1 year of man hours) the checksums would agree >99.5% of the time.  Even in the cases where they would not, the stray bit here or there would be inaudible in all but a handful of rips.

 

Anyone ever actually published the results of such a test?

 

 

as you can see above, dbpoweramp used to test error rates of CD rippers and publish the results. I don't know if they still do.

[the_bat]

22 hours ago, Spacehound said:

Put all of them together and their 'factories'  would fit in my garden shed.

 

I don't know about some of the others but Audio Note have a large factory in Sussex.

 

There's exaggerating for effect and there's nonsese.

[jabbr]

13 hours ago, mansr said:

I have no respect whatsoever for Gordon Rankin. He is a liar and a jerk. He'll say whatever will sell his latest snake oil.

 

 

Oooohhh... You may have whatever opinion you have, and whether you have respect for him is your own decision, but this post is over the top and personal. There is no need to make personal attacks and does nothing to help your own position. Not that you care, apparently.

 

I have great respect for Gordon whether I agree with everything he says or not. There are many other engineers who I respect whether I agree with them or not. Gordon has clearly been involved in the creation and deployment of async USB at a very deep level and whether or not you like the protocol, it has become ubiquitous for USB DACs, and that alone is cause for great respect.

 

Gordon does more than software, firmware indeed he is very accomplished at hardware. He has licensed products and designs at various price points from a few hundred to many thousands of dollars, from ICs to vacuum tubes. From DACs to guitar amps.

 

Does he deserve to make a profit, and is he allowed to promote his latest design? Absolutely!

 

To call his stuff "snake oil" is totally unreasonable -- is Ayre "snake oil" also? 

 

Perhaps you are blinded by MQA but MQA is hardly what Gordon Rankin is about even if he wrote firmware supporting it.

 

13 hours ago, mansr said:

 

Comparing a CD to a rip involves completely different hardware. A slight difference isn't entirely implausible. Two good discs played on the same player really shouldn't sound different. If they do, I'd call the player defective.

 

Whatever. Your opinions are arbitrary and when you throw around unfounded insults, it calls into question every opinion you have. 

 

If you want to stick to math, then please stick to math. Again real engineers like @alfe who have designed and made CD can attest to the real differences between both players and physical discs. According your definition the world is defective.

[mansr]

10 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Oooohhh... You may have whatever opinion you have, and whether you have respect for him is your own decision, but this post is over the top and personal. There is no need to make personal attacks and does nothing to help your own position. Not that you care, apparently.

Go look at his tone towards me and others in the MQA on Dragonfly thread, then tell me he isn't a jerk. People have been banned for less. In the same thread, he also made various factually incorrect statements about his own design. If that doesn't make him a liar, I don't know what does.

[jabbr]

51 minutes ago, mansr said:

Go look at his tone towards me and others in the MQA on Dragonfly thread, then tell me he isn't a jerk. People have been banned for less. In the same thread, he also made various factually incorrect statements about his own design. If that doesn't make him a liar, I don't know what does.

 

No sorry (not going to read it). He likely was defending his product which you were likely attacking but less assume we are all adults and in my mind, a single heated thread does not make someone a jerk. Particularly if someone is defending his own work.

 

Making "factually incorrect" statements does not make someone a liar, particularly when you've made an above unqualified statement. At most you could say that someone "has lied about X" ... there is an important difference. Words matter.

 

Look, I'm no fan of MQA primarily because I detest closed formats. I've made my views known. You've done a great job debunking the technical claims of MQA. Really great job. So why not keep it technical? No reason to let technical arguments spill over into personal.

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Making "factually incorrect" statements does not make someone a liar,

No, not necessarily. If the person genuinely believes the statements to be true, he is not a liar. Someone who knowingly makes false statements is a liar. Since Gordon was talking about his own product, the only way for him to not be a liar is to be incompetent, which is just as good a reason to distrust him.

[Spacehound]

9 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

No sorry (not going to read it). He likely was defending his product which you were likely attacking but less assume we are all adults and in my mind, a single heated thread does not make someone a jerk. Particularly if someone is defending his own work.

 

Making "factually incorrect" statements does not make someone a liar, particularly when you've made an above unqualified statement. At most you could say that someone "has lied about X" ... there is an important difference. Words matter.

My FTL spaceship is terrific. Only  a million dollars and seats two and a dog. Want one?

"Alternative facts" perhaps?

[jabbr]

Just now, Spacehound said:

"Alternative facts" perhaps?

Fair enough, but for example: https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pauling.html

 

The fact that Linus Pauling's statements about the merits of Vitamin C are called into question does not diminish the respect that should be accorded to him as a scientist.

 

Thats an example.