The Bottom Fell Out

[NOMBEDES]

On several audio blogs and/or web sites I have recently seen complaints of "very slow sales" for used higher end audio equipment.  While I do not have access to actual sales numbers from USAudioMart or Audiogon, et al, I  wonder if we are reaching a point where our buy and flip audio-culture is in danger of collapse?  This would be very bad news for an industry which is fragmented and certainly must suffer from some degree of oversupply.   A quick glance at the exhibitors listing in the guide book for the 2016 T.H.E. Show in Newport, CA.  lists pages and pages of various manufactures, and anytime you study the various publications posting on the Daily Audiophile web site you see the names of unfamiliar audio companies which propagate like river toads. One wonders where do they come from, and how do they stay in business?  I mean even Russian kleptocrats and Chinese tycoons have to draw the line at one gold plated dCS all in one box  music server.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that as sales decline for used equipment, the audiophile will slowly become unable to purchase new, "improved" equipment.  We are a small niche in the home entertainment industry.  We only have so much disposable income, only so much closet space.  When the only way to move your old $10K amplifier is to sell it for under $1K, you have to consider your next purchase very carefully.  

 

The next item you buy may have to be your last, because you will never be able to sell it....at any price.

[stuck limo]

Probably lots of reasons.

 

a) young people aren't really picking up the hobby

b) possibly overpriced goods

c) older hobbyists dying off/retiring/stopping "upgrading"

d) the quality of equipment is generally so good "upgrading" is less "necessary"

e) audio gear has essentially no resale value --- if you pay something, you'll most likely take a huge loss on it if you resell.

f) it's a buyer's market.

 

 

[mansr]

15 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

b) possibly overpriced goods

Possibly?

 

15 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

d) the quality of equipment is generally so good "upgrading" is less "necessary"

DACs and amps are at a point where any differences are by deliberate design rather than a result of technological advancements.

 

15 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

e) audio gear has essentially no resale value --- if you pay something, you'll most likely take a huge loss on it if you resell.

Electronic components don't really suffer from wear and tear, so there's no solid reason for major loss of value beyond the (mostly psychological) not-new drop. That is, unless the item has become obsolete, which would contradict the previous point.

[stuck limo]

5 minutes ago, mansr said:

Possibly?

 

DACs and amps are at a point where any differences are by deliberate design rather than a result of technological advancements.

 

Electronic components don't really suffer from wear and tear, so there's no solid reason for major loss of value beyond the (mostly psychological) not-new drop. That is, unless the item has become obsolete, which would contradict the previous point.

 

1. Possibly (probably) --- I don't know what type of gear he's talking about.

2. Generally true, yeah.

3. I'm sure lots of interesting discussion could be had on the pricing of things. (but that leads back to 1 --- if things don't devalue because they're solid state, why are they so low (but overpriced)?)

[mansr]

Just now, stuck limo said:

1. Possibly --- I don't know what type of gear he's talking about.

I meant, is there any doubt about it. $1000 USB cables, seriously? I'm pretty sure there's no real benefit in a $20k DAC either.

[stuck limo]

Just now, mansr said:

I meant, is there any doubt about it. $1000 USB cables, seriously? I'm pretty sure there's no real benefit in a $20k DAC either.

 

He's talking about the used market. Is that what cables are going for on the used market? Are you talking about the new or used market? It'd be interesting to get some more chiming in here from others.

[rickca]

2 minutes ago, stuck limo said:

Is that what cables are going for on the used market?

Ask thecableco.com about this, they will buy used cables.  I think they offer something like 25% of retail.

[mansr]

5 minutes ago, rickca said:

Ask thecableco.com about this, they will buy used cables.  I think they offer something like 25% of retail.

Which means they'll be selling them at 50% of retail price. More than $10 for any cable of reasonable length is a rip-off, new or used.

[Panelhead]

  When I look on Agon or HiFi Shark to see what is available the pricing is many times out of line. 

  Used items being offered at 70% of list. Some dealers will almost do that for NIB items. 

  I think used gear is a good way to listen to items of interest. Give them a week or so to get a better feel for the performance and how it integrates into the system. Then decide if it is a keeper.

  The market is small for 8K dacs and streamers, 25K speakers, and 1,000.00 cables. The flip side is the volume can be low and the manufacturer profitable with these pricing levels. 

  There are many low priced options, middle prices items, and expensive equipment. I have seen Benchmark called a value priced line of equipment by many, and as over priced by others. Tells me it is medium priced. 

   But back to the OP seeing sales drop for used equipment, this is pricing related. It the used gear was listed at 35% of MSRP instead of 70% the sales volumes would be higher.

[med_designer]

Hi Everyone -

 

This is a great thread and very timely. I am looking to sell several pieces of gear and my usual method of sale - friends or friends of friends - is starting to dry up. Questions...

 

 

1. What sites do you like to sell on when you do attempt a sell?

 

2. What do you try to sell at? I typically go 40% - 50% of retail. Willing to take a hit to move gear I will not use anymore for one reason or another. I am meticulous with this stuff so have all original packaging, manuals, and so. Do you think this is fair? I see Pannelhead cites 35%. Do you think this is fair? For example at 35% a $3k amp would be $1035.00. Ouch.

 

3. I think it will be harder to sell more exotic pieces of gear which may include tube amps or integrated amps, higher end turntables, DACs, high end CD players and so on. Once it goes above $1,500 - $2,000 I feel the potential customer base is going to shrink and someone must be looking for what we have to sell or we may end up having to keep it.

 

 

I think it is going to get harder to play on the buy and sell carousel and we must make wiser choices and plan to stick with whatever we end up buying. My goal is to end up with two complete systems. One for living room one for office. But I know i have grown a bit weary of getting something only to want to sell it for something else a few years from now. I try not to think about how much money I have spent on this hobby. At least it has been fun and educational. 

 

 

[stuck limo]

I sold some Yamaha stuff locally and just priced it below Amazon's used (Marketplace) pricing and I think I used Ebay as a guide too. I don't think I was out of line on the pricing, especially since it was in extremely/essentially mint good shape, immediate local pickup, and cheaper than Amazon with shipping. I definitely wasn't trying to get rich off the stuff, but I wasn't trying to get ripped off or make like absolutely zero profit off it. (not that I made any profit anyway, but y'know what I mean)

[Teresa]

On 8/25/2017 at 4:48 PM, NOMBEDES said:

On several audio blogs and/or web sites I have recently seen complaints of "very slow sales" for used higher end audio equipment.  While I do not have access to actual sales numbers from USAudioMart or Audiogon, et al, I  wonder if we are reaching a point where our buy and flip audio-culture is in danger of collapse?  This would be very bad news for an industry which is fragmented and certainly must suffer from some degree of oversupply.   A quick glance at the exhibitors listing in the guide book for the 2016 T.H.E. Show in Newport, CA.  lists pages and pages of various manufactures, and anytime you study the various publications posting on the Daily Audiophile web site you see the names of unfamiliar audio companies which propagate like river toads. One wonders where do they come from, and how do they stay in business?  I mean even Russian kleptocrats and Chinese tycoons have to draw the line at one gold plated dCS all in one box  music server.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that as sales decline for used equipment, the audiophile will slowly become unable to purchase new, "improved" equipment.  We are a small niche in the home entertainment industry.  We only have so much disposable income, only so much closet space.  When the only way to move your old $10K amplifier is to sell it for under $1K, you have to consider your next purchase very carefully.  

 

The next item you buy may have to be your last, because you will never be able to sell it....at any price.

Read more  

 

I am a poor audiophile, firmly in the lower economic class, always have been.

 

My solution is to buy demo, clearance, overstock or on a really good sale, with a 100% money back guarantee. So if I keep it I know I will like it until it dies, so no need to resale, just recycle. That is why I buy used from a store as it can be returned if I don't love its sonics.

 

I bought my Infinity Reference Standard Kappa 7's in 1992 on clearance at 50%, marked down from $1,400 to $700 for the pair. I had to replace the woofer surrounds many year ago and I'm hoping they last until I die.

 

I don't look at equipment over $1K and try to spend $500 or less for a single component. When my 28 inch HDTV dies I am thinking of getting a larger screen since the prices have come way down.

 

I hoping my Teac DSD DAC will also last me until I die, it does up to 5.6 MHz DSD, most of my DSD downloads are 2.8 MHz, however most of my music is on SACDs which are also 2.8 MHz. I'm not jonesing for  11.2 MHz or even higher DSD, nor am I jonesing for MQA.

 

In other words I am thrilled with what I have and don't understand why people take heavy financial losses to upgrade to something that may or may not be better. Sorry I just don't understand the mindset.

 

P.S. I'm sadden to hear the only way to move an old $10K amplifier is to sell it for under $1K! That $9K loss is 2½ times what my entire audio/video/computer system cost me. I just can't imagine losing that much money. 

[jventer]

HiFishark is a good indication of what items go for. I also check ebay, Audiogon and the various Audiomarts.

I have found on average that used items sell for about 50% of their new prices. If an item is still new or popular then the used prices will be higher. Unpopular items/brands or items where service and repair is an issue will go for much less.  

 

[mav52]

There are some sites, that you can access for avg prices on audio equipment, but you pay by the lookup for each item, or subscribe. .  

 

There is the

 

http://www.usedprice.com/items/audio/index.html

 

https://bluebook.audiogon.com/

[rodrigaj]

@NOMBEDES

I'm not sure what time frame you are referencing, but it could be just a slow summer season.

 

Having said that, I frequent US Audio Mart and Audiogon and I have noticed fewer sales by individuals and more sales by dealers.

 

Sometimes I watch items of interest to me when I believe the pricing is fair. Thirty days later they have not sold. I followed a W4S stage 2 preamp for three months before I bought it. It was a buy it now sale and did not allow "make an offer".

 

Which brings up another point. I am now seeing more auctions with hidden reserves on audiogon. This is a new trend and one that I feel does not work well with the audigon crowd. Bidders bid low but do not get into bidding wars such as those seen during the last minute on Ebay. The auction items typically go unsold.

[Ralf11]

another issue is items that are heavy and hard to ship (like my Maggie 1.5's)

[stuck limo]

7 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

another issue is items that are heavy and hard to ship (like my Maggie 1.5's)

 

I was going to mention this. It's such a hassle to sell equipment, because you have to actually get it there. And pay a ton on shipping.

[Ralf11]

maybe I should use MQA to convolute my Maggies into a small, quark-sized package - pipe it over to the buyer, and they can deconvolute it into 2 jelly doughnuts

[NOMBEDES]

I guess the wise audiophile will have to purchase any equipment with the knowledge that it is going to be a long term possession or he/she is going to take a painful loss if/when it goes on sale.

 

As an example,   I listed my AVM C8 integrated amplifier for sale at 50% of my purchase price ($3800) - $1900.  It is a wonderful amp.  Like new condition, original box, papers, remote (never used) etc.   No interest.  So I dropped the price to $1300 for a week or so.  No interest.  So I resisted at the original price.  I can wait.

[esldude]

I think the general economy for non-essentials has dropped off dramatically in the last year.  I don't think it is permanent though it might last for a long time.  Even essential items are moving slower.  New car sales are off.  Appliance sales are off.  Not hugely, but after 3 years of record numbers this year they are down. 

 

In the audiophile world, digital related items are going to have less resale because things become a bit obsolete.  Plus many items perform tremendously well even if not expensive.  Patience is probably your best bet.  If that doesn't work then the market has spoken.

[NOMBEDES]

10 minutes ago, esldude said:

I think the general economy for non-essentials has dropped off dramatically in the last year.  I don't think it is permanent though it might last for a long time.  Even essential items are moving slower.  New car sales are off.  Appliance sales are off.  Not hugely, but after 3 years of record numbers this year they are down. 

 

In the audiophile world, digital related items are going to have less resale because things become a bit obsolete.  Plus many items perform tremendously well even if not expensive.  Patience is probably your best bet.  If that doesn't work then the market has spoken.

 

I think you 100% correct.   I can afford to sit on a 3 to 6 $K amp.  I would not be able to take a big loss on a 8 to 10$K item.   

[crenca]

5 hours ago, NOMBEDES said:

I guess the wise audiophile will have to purchase any equipment with the knowledge that it is going to be a long term possession or he/she is going to take a painful loss if/when it goes on sale.

 

As an example,   I listed my AVM C8 integrated amplifier for sale at 50% of my purchase price ($3800) - $1900.  It is a wonderful amp.  Like new condition, original box, papers, remote (never used) etc.   No interest.  So I dropped the price to $1300 for a week or so.  No interest.  So I resisted at the original price.  I can wait.

 

As someone who has spent a bit of time purveying the used market but done a relatively small amount of buying in it, here our my reasons/experience:

 

1)  Price. I am simply unwilling to pay 70, or even 60% of retail for equipment with real miles/time on it which is what the majority of sellers expect.  As someone said upstream you can usually find an "open box" or "demo" from a dealer for these prices - or simply bargain with them instead for NIB stuff and get new at or near these used prices.

 

2)  I am usually seduced away from a very nice piece of used gear by new equipment that is at or near the price of the used gear and is just as competent and often comes with a feature/function that the used gear does not.

 

FWIW

[arcman]

Items like Dacs can get dated pretty quickly (much like televisions). Millennials are up to their necks in student loan debts.....baby boomers retiring. Many having a hard time selling selling large, expensive homes. Flood of good enough products at low price points. I think its a combination of many things. 

 

 

[mansr]

35 minutes ago, crenca said:

Price. I am simply unwilling to pay 70, or even 60% of retail for equipment with real miles/time on it which is what the majority of sellers expect.

But they've done the burn-in for you. Surely that's worth at least 30% of the price.

[crenca]

30 minutes ago, mansr said:

But they've done the burn-in for you. Surely that's worth at least 30% of the price.

 

Seriously, I wonder what value those who lean heavily to the subjectivist side put on the "burn in" of used equipment!  I have noticed in more than a few reviews that the author puts quite a bit of value on it - not that they ever put an actual $monetary$ value on it.